When a hockey players takes a 90mph puck to the face, loses teeth and then gets stitches only to come back on to the ice to help their team, that's the ultimate "team player" sport.

Kinda sucks the spirit of this board is so awful right now. It's actually making me miss the days of arguing Henne vs Gabbert.

Henne Gabbert? Hell, those weren't arguements.. Leftwich Garrard.. Those were knock down brawls.

Those were the days. Man, I miss Bjorn and pyramid threads and the blank #2 polling option. 

Also, ham sandwich. I have a ham sandwich I'd like to trade.

---

I'll play you in ping pong. 

How did we get from organizations owing players wins instead of players owing their employers wins?

The slow death of individual professionalism in professional sports.

As mentioned earlier, this is nothing new, not even in the NFL.  Too many Deions and Keyshawns, not enough Larry Fitzgeralds.

---

Henne Gabbert? Hell, those weren't arguements.. Leftwich Garrard.. Those were knock down brawls.

Those were the days. Man, I miss Bjorn and pyramid threads and the blank #2 polling option. 

Also, ham sandwich. I have a ham sandwich I'd like to trade.

Stick around, and you will find that Blank #2 is still alive.  Special occasions only.

---

---

Those were the days. Man, I miss Bjorn and pyramid threads and the blank #2 polling option. 

Also, ham sandwich. I have a ham sandwich I'd like to trade.

Stick around, and you will find that Blank #2 is still alive.  Special occasions only.

---

When a hockey players takes a 90mph puck to the face, loses teeth and then gets stitches only to come back on to the ice to help their team, that's the ultimate "team player" sport.

Kinda sucks the spirit of this board is so awful right now. It's actually making me miss the days of arguing Henne vs Gabbert.

Is there something wrong with my not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA in terms of player control? 

(or do just really want to talk about hockey   ? )

Lol absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA. However, the NBA is in a really good place right now. Because star players continue switching teams, there is a ton of parody. I mean the Raptors just won the title! The Bucks and Blazers had incredible seasons.  I will almost always side with the players (especially in the NFL) because their shelf life is so small that they really should be able to dictate where they go. QB is the only position that seems to truly matter to these owners. All other positions (especially RBs) should do what's best for them because their days are numbered.

---

Is there something wrong with my not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA in terms of player control? 

(or do just really want to talk about hockey   ? )

Lol absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA. However, the NBA is in a really good place right now. Because star players continue switching teams, there is a ton of parody. I mean the Raptors just won the title! The Bucks and Blazers had incredible seasons.  I will almost always side with the players (especially in the NFL) because their shelf life is so small that they really should be able to dictate where they go. QB is the only position that seems to truly matter to these owners. All other positions (especially RBs) should do what's best for them because their days are numbered.

The NBA has been letting its players create super teams.
The players have been given a lot more say about where they go, but they are choosing to go to places that are already winning. Great for the lucky fans in those cities, not so good for the upstarts.  I would not call that parity.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

  I will almost always side with the players (especially in the NFL) because their shelf life is so small that they really should be able to dictate where they go.

Get rid of the draft and let the players choose where they go, but when they make that choice they have to honor their contracts. And this renegotiation/dummy years/etc that let teams play infinite cap games needs to go to.

That would be the most fair compromise.

---

Bullseye, great post to begin the thread.

The negative impact of the Eric Dickerson trade for the LA Rams was so great that it likely was a key factor in the Rams 21 season stay in St. Louis.

---

I was waiting for your take on this Bullseye. Great read as usual.

I do agree we should not trade him.for.pennies. But I'd like to try and make a in house reset with him and the coaches first before just hitting the trade button.

He's an incredible talent.

Just watching NFL live, and none other than Jack Del Rio agrees with this post.

And no, I'm not taking a position for or against Del Rio.  Just stating that another recognized professional said to go for the quiet, private, sitdown conversation.

Maybe we don't know Jack.

---

I was waiting for your take on this Bullseye. Great read as usual.

I do agree we should not trade him.for.pennies. But I'd like to try and make a in house reset with him and the coaches first before just hitting the trade button.

He's an incredible talent.

Just watching NFL live, and none other than Jack Del Rio agrees with this post.

And no, I'm not taking a position for or against Del Rio.  Just stating that another recognized professional said to go for the quiet, private, sitdown conversation.

Maybe we don't know Jack.

 A strong case can be made that JDR reached the point of diminishing returns as Jaguars HC.  Yet, his wealth of experience and accomplishments as a college player, NFL player, and in his coaching career leads to him being a voice I want to hear when it comes to football opinions.

---

NBA players have requested trade demand long before recent times. They were just not always honored. Heck, there was a time Hakeem demanded a trade from the Rockets.

Jalen wants to win, but let's be real, there is no guarantee any of the teams he could get traded to will ensure that.

For the Jaguars, this all comes to down to Kahn. What relationship, if any, does he have with the players and with Jalen. If he can convince Jalen, that he also wants to win and that Jalen will be paid, that will be fine.

League-wide, none of this will really stop until contracts are essentially fully guaranteed. Having said that, teams will probably try to push the issue with all kinds of incentive based bonuses, but they should be fully guaranteed.

---

Is there something wrong with my not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA in terms of player control? 

(or do just really want to talk about hockey   ? )

Lol absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA. However, the NBA is in a really good place right now. Because star players continue switching teams, there is a ton of parody. I mean the Raptors just won the title! The Bucks and Blazers had incredible seasons.  I will almost always side with the players (especially in the NFL) because their shelf life is so small that they really should be able to dictate where they go. QB is the only position that seems to truly matter to these owners. All other positions (especially RBs) should do what's best for them because their days are numbered.

They're doing so well this is seriously the first time I heard the Raptors won it. And I visit sporting sites daily.

---

Lol absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting the NFL to turn into the NBA. However, the NBA is in a really good place right now. Because star players continue switching teams, there is a ton of parody. I mean the Raptors just won the title! The Bucks and Blazers had incredible seasons.  I will almost always side with the players (especially in the NFL) because their shelf life is so small that they really should be able to dictate where they go. QB is the only position that seems to truly matter to these owners. All other positions (especially RBs) should do what's best for them because their days are numbered.

They're doing so well this is seriously the first time I heard the Raptors won it. And I visit sporting sites daily.

NBA is doing well now relatively to past NBA performance, not really with the NFL.

NBA has always been a league of elite teams, generally with the best players winning titles in bunches. Raptors only won because they "kidnapped" a superstar on a deal he couldn't get out of, and got a lucky few bounces in game 7. Blazers are never going to win as currently constructed. Bucks are doing well but their window is closing fast given losses in FA. In the NBA, it is uncommon for a No. 1 or No 2 to be knocked out before the Conf Finals, and even rarer to win a title if you worse than the No. 2 in your own conference.

Generally the NFL is very different. Post the mid 90's free agency changes, the Patriots are really the only team with truly dominant multiyear runs (3 or more consecutive years). There have been other teams in the conversation with consecutive playoff berths, but they all had flaws that made them beatable and prone to upsets. It's why there have been a few  WC teams to get to and or win the Super Bowl, and why at least one No.1/2 seed typically loses that first home game every year.

---

Its not just about the money.  Great link Bullseye.  These guys have been letting people know that todd wash is soft for the better part of 4 years.  He suffered through kody kessler last year, were on a backup this year and were still pretending fournette is adrian peterson.  I dont condone any of his childish behavior but i understand his frustration.

If it is more about winning and the organization, how do we fix that?  How does the organization convince the players in the locker room that it's committed to winning and is able to do so?

That's the million dollar question.   I think that to begin with, when Doug took over the team that he should have found a voice in the defensive room that players respected.  It was painfully obvious that Wash didn't command their respect and didn't fit the style of play they wanted.  That's not a knock on Wash, not everyone's personality is going to fit in the same room.  At the same time, if the guys in the meeting room don't respect your ability to make the right call at the right time then you are going to foster an environment of dissension.  

Now, that's not to excuse or condone any of the behavior that the players, specifically Jalen, have exhibited.  Case and point you can be pissed that the coach called cover 4, you can go curse him out after the drive for calling cover 4, you can't abandon your zone, shadow a receiver on a crosser and give up an uncontested touchdown.  That's not leadership, that's not wanting to win, that's heinous insubordination.  That being said, I think that it makes more sense to go find someone who can put the best corner in the game in position to erase the best receiver on any given team than try to find another generational cornerback who can go erase the best receiver on any given team.

---

The Jags have won 2 of their last 18 games. What says winning about that?

Winning will fix all this but this front offfice is not making it easy.

1. Premature overpaying Bortles after 1 season
2. Constantly missing on high first round picks
3. Bidding against themselves with the Foles situation. They could of gotten him much cheaper but they felt they needed to pay him a fortune eating up cap.
4. Paying average free agents like Norwell but hasn't paid players the team has drafted and developed.

We could keep going on but it's bad right now.

---

Bullseye, great post to begin the thread.

The negative impact of the Eric Dickerson trade for the LA Rams was so great that it likely was a key factor in the Rams 21 season stay in St. Louis.

Thank you D6!

It's uncanny how spectacularly the Rams blew that trade.   They wound up with three first round picks and three second round picks over two years.  This excludes their own picks.

https://www.profootballhof.com/football-...-or-trade/

They botched every single one of those picks.  Every. Single. One.  Particularly noteworthy is not only did they get two veteran RBs in the deal, they alwo spent two first round picks (1 in 1988 and 1 in 1989) on the RB position, trying to replace the superstar RB they traded away!

A bounty like that should have given the Rams enough talent to legitimately challenge the 49ers and Cowboys for NFL supremacy in the early 90s for years.  This was before free agency.  The Rams could have kept these players as long as they wanted.  Instead, by 1991, just four years after the trade, they were a 3-13 team.


As for that trade contributing to the relocation to St. Louis, as far as I can remember, California has seemed quite reticent when it comes to building new football stadiums.  In my 42 years as a football fan, I have known the state to build exactly two-the one in Santa Clara which is the current home of the 49ers, and the one currently under construction in Los Angeles (which I believe is privately funded).  I can't imagine the aftermath of that trade helped keep them in L.A.

Given the Jaguars history of botching the draft, especially in the first round, I continue to be mystified as to why so many are so eager to deal away one of the few legitimate superstars we actually drafted in the first round.  What would happen to this franchise if we either got a similar haul and botched it similarly, or botched it by not getting sufficient value in the first place then compounding it by botching the picks?

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

If it is more about winning and the organization, how do we fix that?  How does the organization convince the players in the locker room that it's committed to winning and is able to do so?

That's the million dollar question.   I think that to begin with, when Doug took over the team that he should have found a voice in the defensive room that players respected.  It was painfully obvious that Wash didn't command their respect and didn't fit the style of play they wanted.  That's not a knock on Wash, not everyone's personality is going to fit in the same room.  At the same time, if the guys in the meeting room don't respect your ability to make the right call at the right time then you are going to foster an environment of dissension.  

Now, that's not to excuse or condone any of the behavior that the players, specifically Jalen, have exhibited.  Case and point you can be pissed that the coach called cover 4, you can go curse him out after the drive for calling cover 4, you can't abandon your zone, shadow a receiver on a crosser and give up an uncontested touchdown.  That's not leadership, that's not wanting to win, that's heinous insubordination.  That being said, I think that it makes more sense to go find someone who can put the best corner in the game in position to erase the best receiver on any given team than try to find another generational cornerback who can go erase the best receiver on any given team.

But I'm not sure where the players stood on Wash when Marrone took over.  Of course, when he took over, he was already on the staff.  He was in a position to know.  But perhaps the views on Wash had not materialized at the time.  Many of the players on the roster in 2017 either weren't there before then (Campbell, Dareus, Bouye, Church, Gipson) or had only been there a year (Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue).  Perhaps the views had changed.  But by then, the defense performed well in 2017, so in his mind, there may have been little to no reason to change coordinators.

I just want this franchise to get things right for a sustained period of time.  Early on, it seemed the team had a charmed life.  Four straight playoff seasons and two appearances in the AFCCG in the first five years was insane.  When the team fell off, I felt perhaps our fans were spoiled.  After ten losing seasons out of the last eleven, and fourteen out of the last nineteen, with this season starting out 0-2, that definitely isn't the case now.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Gipson was signed in 16, the same year Jalen was drafted. The offseason after that first year, you started hearing the defensive players rumbling about wash and the scheme.

---

Gipson was signed in 16, the same year Jalen was drafted.  The offseason after that first year, you started hearing the defensive players rumbling about wash and the scheme.

Mea culpa on Gipson.

Either way, the defense was working.

I could understand why Marrone, an offensive guy, would be reluctant to change schemes at that point.

Also keep in mind that TC was hired to be Marrone's boss.  TC had control/veto power over the coaches Marrone could hire/fire.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Bullseye, great post to begin the thread.

The negative impact of the Eric Dickerson trade for the LA Rams was so great that it likely was a key factor in the Rams 21 season stay in St. Louis.

Thank you D6!

It's uncanny how spectacularly the Rams blew that trade.   They wound up with three first round picks and three second round picks over two years.  This excludes their own picks.

https://www.profootballhof.com/football-...-or-trade/

They botched every single one of those picks.  Every. Single. One.  Particularly noteworthy is not only did they get two veteran RBs in the deal, they alwo spent two first round picks (1 in 1988 and 1 in 1989) on the RB position, trying to replace the superstar RB they traded away!

A bounty like that should have given the Rams enough talent to legitimately challenge the 49ers and Cowboys for NFL supremacy in the early 90s for years.  This was before free agency.  The Rams could have kept these players as long as they wanted.  Instead, by 1991, just four years after the trade, they were a 3-13 team.


As for that trade contributing to the relocation to St. Louis, as far as I can remember, California has seemed quite reticent when it comes to building new football stadiums.  In my 42 years as a football fan, I have known the state to build exactly two-the one in Santa Clara which is the current home of the 49ers, and the one currently under construction in Los Angeles (which I believe is privately funded).  I can't imagine the aftermath of that trade helped keep them in L.A.

Given the Jaguars history of botching the draft, especially in the first round, I continue to be mystified as to why so many are so eager to deal away one of the few legitimate superstars we actually drafted in the first round.  What would happen to this franchise if we either got a similar haul and botched it similarly, or botched it by not getting sufficient value in the first place then compounding it by botching the picks?

Then look at the cowboys and the Herschel Walker trade that gave the boys a 3 ring dyntasty.  Could go either way.

This front office should have nothing to do with future rebuilding.

---

Thank you D6!

It's uncanny how spectacularly the Rams blew that trade.   They wound up with three first round picks and three second round picks over two years.  This excludes their own picks.

https://www.profootballhof.com/football-...-or-trade/

They botched every single one of those picks.  Every. Single. One.  Particularly noteworthy is not only did they get two veteran RBs in the deal, they alwo spent two first round picks (1 in 1988 and 1 in 1989) on the RB position, trying to replace the superstar RB they traded away!

A bounty like that should have given the Rams enough talent to legitimately challenge the 49ers and Cowboys for NFL supremacy in the early 90s for years.  This was before free agency.  The Rams could have kept these players as long as they wanted.  Instead, by 1991, just four years after the trade, they were a 3-13 team.


As for that trade contributing to the relocation to St. Louis, as far as I can remember, California has seemed quite reticent when it comes to building new football stadiums.  In my 42 years as a football fan, I have known the state to build exactly two-the one in Santa Clara which is the current home of the 49ers, and the one currently under construction in Los Angeles (which I believe is privately funded).  I can't imagine the aftermath of that trade helped keep them in L.A.

Given the Jaguars history of botching the draft, especially in the first round, I continue to be mystified as to why so many are so eager to deal away one of the few legitimate superstars we actually drafted in the first round.  What would happen to this franchise if we either got a similar haul and botched it similarly, or botched it by not getting sufficient value in the first place then compounding it by botching the picks?

Then look at the cowboys and the Herschel Walker trade that gave the boys a 3 ring dyntasty.  Could go either way.

This front office should have nothing to do with future rebuilding.

I've had several lengthy discussions on this topic. 


The short, short version?

They represent the exception to the rule.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!