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Reign of Terror NFL Style?

#1

Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!
[Image: giphy.gif]

Another day on the Jaguars Message Board...
Welcome to Jacksonville:  "We don't deal with carnival folk."




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#2

It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues. Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

The Jags gave Bortles an extension that he kinda earned, but then didn't live up to, and then signed Foles and are now on the hook for his cap space. Bad deals both, and the kind of mistakes that the teams listed above don't make because, well, they don't have to.

On the plus side, that great defense made the Jags have to make some of the tough choices good teams regularly deal with. How to keep Campbell, Dareus, Yan, Bouye, AND Ramsey? We can't. So at least we got something for Ramsey. Hopefully we'll keep the right guys from the others in the list. I'll argue that even though we haven't had as much success as the Steelers or Pats, the Jags ARE following the natural progression of replacement of good veteran players by intelligent use of the draft and inexpensive free agency. When we get to the point that we're not chasing QBs, I think we'll enjoy a bit more success.
Reply

#3

(02-13-2020, 12:13 PM)anonymous2112 Wrote: It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues.  Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

The Jags gave Bortles an extension that he kinda earned, but then didn't live up to, and then signed Foles and are now on the hook for his cap space.  Bad deals both, and the kind of mistakes that the teams listed above don't make because, well, they don't have to.

On the plus side, that great defense made the Jags have to make some of the tough choices good teams regularly deal with.  How to keep Campbell, Dareus, Yan, Bouye, AND Ramsey?  We can't.  So at least we got something for Ramsey.  Hopefully we'll keep the right guys from the others in the list. I'll argue that even though we haven't had as much success as the Steelers or Pats, the Jags ARE following the natural progression of replacement of good veteran players by intelligent use of the draft and inexpensive free agency.  When we get to the point that we're not chasing QBs, I think we'll enjoy a bit more success.


But that's what does make it all about a top flight quarterback.  Once you stop searching for that you can concentrate on other areas.
When inventing a foolproof system inventors often underestimate the ingenuity of fools.

A flute with no holes is not a flute.  A donut with no hole is a danish.
Reply

#4
Big Grin 

(02-13-2020, 12:15 PM)Rico Wrote: But that's what does make it all about a top flight quarterback.  Once you stop searching for that you can concentrate on other areas.

You CAN occasionally get away with "good enough" like a Flacco or Kaepernick.

Sooooo looking forward to the Colts trying to find Luck again.
Reply

#5
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2020, 12:56 PM by JagJohn.)

(02-13-2020, 11:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!

First of all, it's good to see you back on the board.

Secondly, you clearly made the connection to the French Revolution because the name Bouye sounds kind of Frenchy.

As for the main points of your post, it is actually jarring to see it laid out clearly like that. As you say, even allowing for the usual amount of roster turnover, there is no reason why that entire defense (the best in team history) should have been absolutely gutted in the space of just over two seasons. I still suspect Coughlin has a lot to answer for, but we will almost certainly never know for sure.

As for the actual CBS article about Bouye leaving, they are merely repeating what Oehser said in the OZone recently. Oehser is usually precient about these things, but I'd still be pretty shocked if they let Bouye go purely because they clearly are trying to put a team together to win now. Bouye leaving would leave us with just Herndon as a starting outside CB, and the jury is still out on him. Right now, I'd say Herndon profiles more as a good backup rather than a starter. Bouye's release would leave us seriously struggling on the outside. 

Personally, I'd be fine with them cutting all the aging veterans this offseason and giving our younger fringe players a chance to step up, especially on defense. We have some building blocks in place that should allow us to turn this thing around fairly quickly. It's not a rebuild, it's a restock.
Reply

#6

Does this team look like they have a plan? That is the issue. Coaches have bad game plans, players have limited development and the Front Office didn't even execute their own draft plan to grow the offense. They didn't even leverage a "great" defense for more than a year.

Honestly this franchise is nothing about the product on the field.
Stages of Jaguar Grief
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  • Anger - Coaches
  • Bargaining - Kicking is solved
  • Depression - becausejaguars
  • Acceptance - Higher Draft Picks
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#7
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2020, 12:43 PM by The Real Marty.)

Bullseye, as you probably recall, Robespierre was himself eventually beheaded.  

So who is our Robespierre?  And when does he get beheaded?

Welcome back to the board, by the way.  Your departure depressed me.  Glad you're back.

Reply

#8

(02-13-2020, 12:42 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: Bullseye, as you probably recall, Robespierre was himself eventually beheaded.  

So who is our Robespierre?  And when does he get beheaded?


[Image: giphy.gif]
"It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office." - H. L. Mencken

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#9

(02-13-2020, 11:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!

Great breakdown!! Anytime I get into a back in forth with someone here it is usually trying explain what you clearly broke down.  

We could have won the super with our exact roster, there was no change needed even at the qb that year. Bortles did everything he was supposed to do throughout the playoffs and our Defense did as well. Our coaching let us down and a couple of bad calls from the ref.

The fact that we can see this and the coaches or front office couldn't blows my mind. I had a issue with pretty much every release that happen except for really Barry Church and would could have kept him and tried to restructure for the chemistry.

The chemistry of the team was unmatched, you could tell, Poz was a real mentor for Telvin Smith and he did not want to retire but our front office would not do right by him forcing him to retire.

Its just bad FO overall and then after the season instead of improving or offense but selecting a former Heisman winner taking a risk, just in case Bortles reverts back to the up and down play, Lamar Jackson fell to us and we let him pass for Taven Bryan????. It made absolutely no sense to take a gamble on a unproven DT when we could have took the gamble on Lamar Jackson or even someone else. 

It may be a super reach but now to me it really seems like they did not want to win a Super Bowl or even allow us to get to the super bowl because it wouldn't allow Khan to be able to have the option to move the team because that would have solidifies us for a good amount of years and brought some real pride to the Jaguars. I feel like it was done on purpose because this collective of grown men can't all watch and let all of this happen after having our greatest defense and 2nd best season in team history. It just makes you question everything.
Reply

#10

(02-13-2020, 12:13 PM)anonymous2112 Wrote: It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues. Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

The Jags gave Bortles an extension that he kinda earned, but then didn't live up to, and then signed Foles and are now on the hook for his cap space. Bad deals both, and the kind of mistakes that the teams listed above don't make because, well, they don't have to.

On the plus side, that great defense made the Jags have to make some of the tough choices good teams regularly deal with. How to keep Campbell, Dareus, Yan, Bouye, AND Ramsey? We can't. So at least we got something for Ramsey. Hopefully we'll keep the right guys from the others in the list. I'll argue that even though we haven't had as much success as the Steelers or Pats, the Jags ARE following the natural progression of replacement of good veteran players by intelligent use of the draft and inexpensive free agency. When we get to the point that we're not chasing QBs, I think we'll enjoy a bit more success.

(02-13-2020, 12:15 PM)Rico Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 12:13 PM)anonymous2112 Wrote: It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues.  Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

The Jags gave Bortles an extension that he kinda earned, but then didn't live up to, and then signed Foles and are now on the hook for his cap space.  Bad deals both, and the kind of mistakes that the teams listed above don't make because, well, they don't have to.

On the plus side, that great defense made the Jags have to make some of the tough choices good teams regularly deal with.  How to keep Campbell, Dareus, Yan, Bouye, AND Ramsey?  We can't.  So at least we got something for Ramsey.  Hopefully we'll keep the right guys from the others in the list. I'll argue that even though we haven't had as much success as the Steelers or Pats, the Jags ARE following the natural progression of replacement of good veteran players by intelligent use of the draft and inexpensive free agency.  When we get to the point that we're not chasing QBs, I think we'll enjoy a bit more success.


But that's what does make it all about a top flight quarterback.  Once you stop searching for that you can concentrate on other areas.

I don't fully buy that.

What does purging the roster of viable talent have to do with finding a QB?

Unless you are "Tanking for Tua" as the Dolphins are often alleged to have done last year (bitterly denied by Flores), I don't see where it serves that purpose.

Besides, it isn't as if QBs are a franchise's sole purpose of drafting until they find one. It isn't as if QB needy teams draft nothing but QBs in rounds 1-7. They address other positions.

The Ravens went from Vinny INTerceptaverde to Trent Dilfer to Elvis Grbac to Kyle Boller before finally hitting on Flacco in 2008. But they didn't stop accumulating talent at other positions, drafting Ray Lewis, Jon Ogden, Chris mcAllister, Todd Heap, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata, among others, during that span. They didn't purge that talent during that search.

The same holds true for the Greatest Show on Turf Rams. They went from Tony Bamks for years until they stumbled upon Kurt Warner. Between that time, they added guys like Orlando Pace, Kevin Carter, Leonard Little, Dre Bly, Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt.

Besides, finding your QB or thinking you found himdoes not guarantee you can sctually fill in the pieces around him. Jacksonville thought it had it's QB in Leftwich, and then tried to add in pieces around him to give hm help. But just about all of their efforts to give him help failed. They missed on first round WRs in Reggie Williams and Matt Jones. They were never able to add a competent LT. Attempts to bloster WR in free agency failed with the Porter signing and the Northcutt trade.

Franchises have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
[Image: giphy.gif]

Another day on the Jaguars Message Board...
Welcome to Jacksonville:  "We don't deal with carnival folk."




Reply

#11

You make good points, Bullseye, especially about the Jaguars drafts after Leftwich. It all goes back to the problem of needs based drafting. The great teams just keep drafting the best player they can and wait for the time that a QB is that player. The Jaguars throw good picks after bad ones trying to make bad choices into good ones. That's how a team ends up as one of the last decade's most losing.
Reply

#12

(02-13-2020, 02:14 PM)D-Money Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 11:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!

Great breakdown!! Anytime I get into a back in forth with someone here it is usually trying explain what you clearly broke down.  

We could have won the super with our exact roster, there was no change needed even at the qb that year. Bortles did everything he was supposed to do throughout the playoffs and our Defense did as well. Our coaching let us down and a couple of bad calls from the ref.

The fact that we can see this and the coaches or front office couldn't blows my mind. I had a issue with pretty much every release that happen except for really Barry Church and would could have kept him and tried to restructure for the chemistry.

The chemistry of the team was unmatched, you could tell, Poz was a real mentor for Telvin Smith and he did not want to retire but our front office would not do right by him forcing him to retire.

Its just bad FO overall and then after the season instead of improving or offense but selecting a former Heisman winner taking a risk, just in case Bortles reverts back to the up and down play, Lamar Jackson fell to us and we let him pass for Taven Bryan????. It made absolutely no sense to take a gamble on a unproven DT when we could have took the gamble on Lamar Jackson or even someone else. 

It may be a super reach but now to me it really seems like they did not want to win a Super Bowl or even allow us to get to the super bowl because it wouldn't allow Khan to be able to have the option to move the team because that would have solidifies us for a good amount of years and brought some real pride to the Jaguars. I feel like it was done on purpose because this collective of grown men can't all watch and let all of this happen after having our greatest defense and 2nd best season in team history. It just makes you question everything.

There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start. You say there was no change needed at QB and then chide the team for not drafting Jackson? The team forced Poz to retire?

And the notion that the FO gutted the team because they wanted to avoid winning the superbowl so Khan still had the option to move the team is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. Put the crack pipe down man.

The FO makes more than enough real bad decisions to criticize them for without having to invent a bunch of [BLEEP] to throw on top of it.
Reply

#13

I don't know if yall remember this and I normally don't like to add conspiracies but you gotta question it.https://youtu.be/MlkM0V9ewd8

Also Ramsey was the heart of the team overall

Reply

#14

(02-13-2020, 12:32 PM)JagJohn Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 11:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!

First of all, it's good to see you back on the board.

Secondly, you clearly made the connection to the French Revolution because the name Bouye sounds kind of Frenchy.

As for the main points of your post, it is actually jarring to see it laid out clearly like that. As you say, even allowing for the usual amount of roster turnover, there is no reason why that entire defense (the best in team history) should have been absolutely gutted in the space of just over two seasons. I still suspect Coughlin has a lot to answer for, but we will almost certainly never know for sure.

As for the actual CBS article about Bouye leaving, they are merely repeating what Oehser said in the OZone recently. Oehser is usually precient about these things, but I'd still be pretty shocked if they let Bouye go purely because they clearly are trying to put a team together to win now. Bouye leaving would leave us with just Herndon as a starting outside CB, and the jury is still out on him. Right now, I'd say Herndon profiles more as a good backup rather than a starter. Bouye's release would leave us seriously struggling on the outside. 

Personally, I'd be fine with them cutting all the aging veterans this offseason and giving our younger fringe players a chance to step up, especially on defense. We have some building blocks in place that should allow us to turn this thing around fairly quickly. It's not a rebuild, it's a restock.

Your Coughlin analysis raises a question I have been pondering all morning.  Assuming he was the catalyst behind the free agent binge that netted us Jackson, Campbell, Bouye, Church, Gipson, and Norwell, were his efforts worth the decimation of the defensive roster of it led to only one winning season that almost took us to the Super Bowl?  I mean it had been a long long time since we had a winning season, and like a neglected plant, the fans needed a taste of winning.  But when the bill came due, it led to others being purged along with the free agents,.

I can't recall the last time I read Oesher with any degree of regularity.  Until just recently, it had been months since I read him at all.

As a general rule, I'm okay with cutting aging and expensive vets.

The problem is, cutting those aging and expensive vets, along with trading away young, promising players, and possibly allowing other young promising players to walk ecause they won't pay them, we are left with a situation where the team does not have to simply plug in players to replace a hole or two, , but virtually the entire defense.  Assuming Bouye is released, as it stands now, the team would have to replace at least two players out of the secondary, though I would say three because I don't trust Herndon yet.  Sensibly we'd have to replace three defensive linemen.  You could plug in Allen for Yan.  You could put Campbell back at LE, though he will be 34 by the start of the season and showed signs of decline last year.  You would need Dareus replaced definitely, and Taven Bryan has been less than starting material, though he has shown some improvement.  Minimally you would need one LB.  That's seven players on one side of the ball, and we're not even talking about depth.
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#15
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2020, 02:54 PM by D-Money.)

(02-13-2020, 02:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 02:14 PM)D-Money Wrote: Great breakdown!! Anytime I get into a back in forth with someone here it is usually trying explain what you clearly broke down.  

We could have won the super with our exact roster, there was no change needed even at the qb that year. Bortles did everything he was supposed to do throughout the playoffs and our Defense did as well. Our coaching let us down and a couple of bad calls from the ref.

The fact that we can see this and the coaches or front office couldn't blows my mind. I had a issue with pretty much every release that happen except for really Barry Church and would could have kept him and tried to restructure for the chemistry.

The chemistry of the team was unmatched, you could tell, Poz was a real mentor for Telvin Smith and he did not want to retire but our front office would not do right by him forcing him to retire.

Its just bad FO overall and then after the season instead of improving or offense but selecting a former Heisman winner taking a risk, just in case Bortles reverts back to the up and down play, Lamar Jackson fell to us and we let him pass for Taven Bryan????. It made absolutely no sense to take a gamble on a unproven DT when we could have took the gamble on Lamar Jackson or even someone else. 

It may be a super reach but now to me it really seems like they did not want to win a Super Bowl or even allow us to get to the super bowl because it wouldn't allow Khan to be able to have the option to move the team because that would have solidifies us for a good amount of years and brought some real pride to the Jaguars. I feel like it was done on purpose because this collective of grown men can't all watch and let all of this happen after having our greatest defense and 2nd best season in team history. It just makes you question everything.

There's so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start. You say there was no change needed at QB and then chide the team for not drafting Jackson? The team forced Poz to retire?

And the notion that the FO gutted the team because they wanted to avoid winning the superbowl so Khan still had the option to move the team is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. Put the crack pipe down man.

The FO makes more than enough real bad decisions to criticize them for without having to invent a bunch of [BLEEP] to throw on top of it.
 I said for that season!! And if we were going to take a risk on a player why not let it be a qb just in case Bortles did not work out. As we all knew he was inconsistent. We took a risk on Taven Bryan an unproven DT and not Lamar Jackson knowing that Bortles was inconsistent but he did what he was supposed to do for that playoff run. 

Also, you can think how you want think but I said based on the things that they let happen. Things that fans on a message board could see but men that have experience being paid millions to do their jobs, It makes me believe there had to be something else behind it. I said it was a reach but with the London stuff it makes me question it.

No crack pipe or nothing like that, all critical thinking, you can be a sheep if you want to and not question anything. I understand we can't do anything about it but The NFL is business and they were created to make money so I don't believe its out of the question because there is a bunch of questionable [BLEEP] that has went on throughout the years.

Also Poz did not want to retire but he did not want to go to another team or move this late in his career.
Reply

#16

(02-13-2020, 12:33 PM)MoJagFan Wrote: Does this team look like they have a plan?  That is the issue. Coaches have bad game plans, players have limited development and the Front Office didn't even execute their own draft plan to grow the offense. They didn't even leverage a "great" defense for more than a year.

Honestly this franchise is nothing about the product on the field.

If the plan is to "Tank for Trevor" then maybe. 

If not, then I am unsure what the plan is, but I am unsure if it has anything to do with putting a winning team on the field.
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#17

(02-13-2020, 12:42 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: Bullseye, as you probably recall, Robespierre was himself eventually beheaded.  

So who is our Robespierre?  And when does he get beheaded?

Welcome back to the board, by the way.  Your departure depressed me.  Glad you're back.

You could say TC was our Robespierre.  Others would say Caldwell is our current equivalent, while still others could say all three (TC, DC, and DM) are his equivalent.

But sadly, unlike the French Revolution that had the goal of raising the citizenry by purging the land of the aristocracy that hoarded the wealth, whomever our Robspierre is/are had the effect of suppressing the serfs and peasants (Jaguars fans) by purging the roster of the talent keeping us winning impoverished.
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#18

(02-13-2020, 02:23 PM)Bullseye Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 12:13 PM)anonymous2112 Wrote: It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues.  Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

The Jags gave Bortles an extension that he kinda earned, but then didn't live up to, and then signed Foles and are now on the hook for his cap space.  Bad deals both, and the kind of mistakes that the teams listed above don't make because, well, they don't have to.

On the plus side, that great defense made the Jags have to make some of the tough choices good teams regularly deal with.  How to keep Campbell, Dareus, Yan, Bouye, AND Ramsey?  We can't.  So at least we got something for Ramsey.  Hopefully we'll keep the right guys from the others in the list. I'll argue that even though we haven't had as much success as the Steelers or Pats, the Jags ARE following the natural progression of replacement of good veteran players by intelligent use of the draft and inexpensive free agency.  When we get to the point that we're not chasing QBs, I think we'll enjoy a bit more success.

(02-13-2020, 12:15 PM)Rico Wrote: But that's what does make it all about a top flight quarterback.  Once you stop searching for that you can concentrate on other areas.

I don't fully buy that.

What does purging the roster of viable talent have to do with finding a QB?

Unless you are "Tanking for Tua" as the Dolphins are often alleged to have done last year (bitterly denied by Flores), I don't see where it serves that purpose.

Besides, it isn't as if QBs are a franchise's sole purpose of drafting until they find one.  It isn't as if QB needy teams draft nothing but QBs in rounds 1-7.  They address other positions.  

The Ravens went from Vinny INTerceptaverde to Trent Dilfer to Elvis Grbac to Kyle Boller before finally hitting on Flacco in 2008.  But they didn't stop accumulating talent at other positions, drafting Ray Lewis, Jon Ogden, Chris mcAllister, Todd Heap, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata, among others, during that span.  They didn't purge that talent during that search.

The same holds true for the Greatest Show on Turf Rams.  They went from Tony Bamks for years until they stumbled upon Kurt Warner.  Between that time, they added guys like Orlando Pace, Kevin Carter, Leonard Little, Dre Bly, Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt.

Besides, finding your QB or thinking you found himdoes not guarantee you can sctually fill in the pieces around him.  Jacksonville thought it had it's QB in Leftwich, and then tried to add in pieces around him to give hm help.  But just about all of their efforts to give him help failed.  They missed on first round WRs in Reggie Williams and Matt Jones.  They were never able to add a competent LT.  Attempts to bloster WR in free agency failed with the Porter signing and the Northcutt trade.

Franchises have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

When did I say anything like that?
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#19

(02-13-2020, 11:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: Every so often, my mind will cough up some obscure reference for whatever reason.  Today's obscure reference is Robespierre, a key figure from the French Revolution known for the Reign of Terror, a series of brutal executions of figures deemed enemies of the revolution designed to purge France of all of the negative influences that necessitated the revolution in the first place.  I know the last thing you wanted to read about here is the French Revolution, but bear with me.

The Jaguars have triggered this obscure reference.

Though I knew it was a possibility, reports from CBSSports and other sources indicate Jaguars Pro Bowl CB A.J. Bouye, a key contributor to the 2017 defense that took the team to the cusp of the Super Bowl in the team's first winning season in a decade, will be one of the veteran cuts this offseason in the team's efforts to clear cap space.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-f...contracts/

So why the association with the Reign of Terror? 

While on the most basic level, I certainly don't equate the killing of scores of human beings in political upheaval to roster moves, within the more civilized context of the NFL world, the roster upheaval/purge is equally as jarring as the French Revolution was to world history. 

Below is a simple table showing the starters and key contributors to the 2017 defense that took us to the playoffs and their status as of 2020.

2017 starter/contributor-------------------------2020 Status

Yannick Ngakoue--------------------------------- ???

Dante Fowler--------------------------------------Traded to Rams in 2018.  Scheduled to be a FA

Calais Campbell-----------------------------------???

Malik Jackson-------------------------------------Cut in 2019

Marcell Dareus------------------------------------Likely to be cut in 2020

Telvin Smith---------------------------------------Went on a "sabbatical" last year.  Status unknown

Paul Pozluszny------------------------------------Retired after 2017 season

Myles Jack-----------------------------------------Currently on roster.  Signed 4 year contract extension last year.

Jalen Ramsey------------------------------------Traded in 2019 to the Rams

A.J. Bouye---------------------------------------Likely to be cut this year

Barry Church-----------------------------------Cut in 2018

Tashaun Gipson-------------------------------Cut in 2019

Aaron Colvin--------------------------------------Left as UFA in 2018

So out of fourteen starters and contributors to that 2017 defense, only ONE (1) is guaranteed to be here in 2020-Jack.  Two more-Yannick Ngakoue and Calais Campbell-are uncertain.  Ngakoue seems to have hard feelings about the team not signing him when they had the chance last year.  The team may franchise him this year, whichcould make matters worse.  He could end up being traded if there is too much acrimony as a result.  Calais Campbell has been making the public case that he deserves his contract from the Jaguars, which means at the very least, he thinks his release for cap considerations may be a possibility. 

Of the players that left, only ONE-Aaron Colvin, has been replaced by a player of equal or better ability in Hayden.  While Harrison shows promise, he has not reached the level Barry Church played in 2017.

You want to know why the defense collapsed so dramatically last year?  That's why.

Though the defense was the strength of the team, the offense wasn't spared, either.  Notable offensive departures from the same timeframe include

Allen Robinson
Allen Hurms
Jermey Parnell
Blake Bortles
T.J. Yeldon

It's not as if guys like Yeldon and Bortles were must keeps.  But I submit part of this franchise's problem is that there are rarely any talented and experienced veterans to help bridge the gap and help mentor younger players.  Teams like the Steelers and Patriots undoubtedly have free agency losses.  But they keep enough of their players to have some semblance of continuity, and they are able to replace the guys they lose, either by drafting and developing talent or signing comparable level free agents.  The Patriots went from Ty Law to Asante Samuel to Darelle Revis to Aqib Talib to Stephon Gilmore at CB.  At LT, they went from Matt Light to Nate Solder to Trent Brown.  That's three LTs in about an 18 year period. They managed to go from Troy Brown to Wes Welker to Julian Edelman at the slot.  Three slot WRs in the same time frame. 

The Steelers are not known for being big spenders, but they spent enough to keep the guys they wanted to keep longer than three year increments.  How long were guys like Bettis, Hines Ward, Jeff Hartings, Heath Miller, and Troy Polamalu on their roster?  Yes, they lost guys like Santonio Holmes and eventually Hines Ward, but they drafted and developed guys like Antonio Brown.

Seattle, the team to which the Jaguars were most often compared, managed to keep the nucleus Super Bowl defense together longer than we did.  Earl Thomas was in Seattle between 2010 until last year.  That's nine years.  Kam Chancellor was there for eight.  Richard Sherman was there seven years.  KJ Wright and Barry Wagner were together on that defense.  From the same defense, they kept Barry Wagner and KJ Wright together for eight seasons. In 2013, they added DE Michael Bennett for another five seasons.

How long were the Ravens a defensive kingdom with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata?  The triumvirate of Lewis Reed and Suggs played together from 2004 until 2012.  Haloti Ngata joined them in 2006.

I know what you're thinking.  These teams all had better QBs.  That is true, but does not provide a full account of the disparity.  First off, it isn't all about the QBs.  When Brady missed virtually the entire season after suffering a torn ACL circa 2008, the Patriots still finished 11-5.  Last year, Ben Roethlisberger missed the entire season, and the Steelers dealt with the losses of Antonio Brown and Leveon Bell, and still managed to finish 8-8.  Steelers fans thought that season a disaster.  We would see that as vast improvement.  Besides, with star QBs typically mean star salaries, which means less money to pay other players.  The Jaguars foolishly signed Bortles to the extension, and then signed Foles to a middle of the road deal last year, in deals that still paled in comparison to the salaries Brady and Big Ben earned.

At the end of the day I fully understand that in the free agency era, roster turnver is inevitable.  Players get injured.  Players age.  players retire.  Players leave for free agency.  But there is NO SENSIBLE REASON a defense as young and as talented as ours was in 2017 should have a functional shelf life of three seasons.  There is no reason a defense that talented should have to be completely rebuilt within that time as this one has to be.

Reign of Terror, indeed!

Half of those D starters and contributors were FAs (counting Dareus who was actually a trade)
Stands to reason they have a shorter shelf life.

The biggest issue, imo, was the GM (and Coughlin) failing to properly draft replacements AND keep said replacements. Coughlin ran guys out of town with the way he did business and Caldwell and he didn't attack the draft properly. They have to know building a team with so many FAs gives you a short window to draft and develop. They didn't draft great and when they did hit they mismanaged the hell out of them.
If a team was ever "a QB away" from getting over "the hump" it was that 2017 team. Front office should have bailed on Blake, doubled down on offense in the draft (QB first, RB later, tag AR15, TE) and they should have taken care of guys like Ramsey and Yan before Myles Jack. Many will say hindsight (hell even I was still on the Blake bandwagon going into 2018, but I'm not paid to be right)
2018 was our biggest open window and the offense took a major step back (mostly due to poor QB play) and we took another step backward once our defense got old, guys bailed, and our offense got even worse (OL, QB, everything)
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#20

(02-13-2020, 12:13 PM)anonymous2112 Wrote: It isn't ALL about the QB, but when you have a good one in place, you can address other issues.  Teams like the Saints, Pats, Packers, Steelers and Seahawks can keep talent and acquire talent better than we can because one key position has been filled.

While have the true franchise QB does make things easier, the Jags shouldn't not address other issues though. Even when a team finds "the guy", the rookie deal is by far the easiest window to a win a title, and too many holes makes that really difficult. Then by the time you fix the holes, your QB has to get paid, and you make new holes that you hope you can overcome.
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