While I fully understand where you're coming from based on all of the above at that position in 2019. You're not hesitant even at the slightest that the Ravens are already willing to move on from him after two years? 

That's not good. He'll be 27 or 28 already by the time the regular season starts. Just doesn't seem like a good idea. And here's the thing. As StroudCrowd hinted at earlier. People still have faith in Caldwell as a competent General Manager around here?

I don't. But what I do know is that he tends to have better success picking on day two and day three of most of his drafts so far. Would rather see him keep whatever draft pick it is that he's thinking about forking over to Baltimore and aim for a younger, slower development type player at the position like Harrison or Hunter Bryant or maybe Adam Trautman.

I think you're essentially gaining James O'Shaughnessy again by trading for Hayden Hurst.

I'm not sweating it for a 5th or 6th round pick.  The ravens are deep at TE. Not shocked they are willing to part with one. I'm sure they are surprised that the one they are willing to part with is the guy they drafted ahead of Lamar Jackson, but that's how it ended up. 

If the director of pro personnel is telling Dave that Hurst for a fifth round pick is better than any TE he'll get in the fifth round of the 2020 draft, then it's not an unreasonable way of adding talent to the position group.

Hurst had a mere 39 targets in 2019 (30 receptions).  I'm not going to pretend I've watched all of them and have a report put together on his receiving abilities. Maybe he's worth a 5th, maybe he's not.  

But I do understand why the Jags are exploring all avenues to bolster the TE room. And if they see Hurst as a viable option, so be it.

 There's a reason he went 25th overall initially and he's subsequently had a rookie season spoiled by injury, and a second year where he ended up behind a very good TE in Andrews, and essentially split the #2 snaps with Nick Boyle who also played well. I'm not so sure that there's nothing to salvage from Hurst. 

Personally, I had my eyes on a couple of free agents that I'd still prioritize, but I get it. 

There were a ton of people here lamenting the loss of O'Shaughnessy as a reason for the offense's sputtering mid season. If you believe that - and many do - Is that player not worth a fifth round pick?

Remains to be seen. The problem now is that the entire offense will be new and every player involved will have to learn it and pick up on it. It's not that I don't think he's worth a draft pick. I just don't see how he fits at the moment here in particular because you already have a guy built just like him. 

And how good can Hurst possibly be if he was one of the least utilized components to that offense in 2019? That's a problem for me. He was out played by Andrews and essentially split time with Boyle in 2019. 

O'Shaughnessy and Hurst don't look like Gresham, Eifert nor Reed to me on paper as far as natural receiving ability. Those are the types of guys we need based on Gruden's history. And the only splash plays I have seen out of them two were mostly from broken coverage. I haven't seen them really separate or split a defense wide open right down the middle. 

Hopefully Oliver showcases some of that ability in year two in that move role like he did at San Diego St. Honestly I am just really high on those three particular TE's from this year's class. And I think they would be better compliments to what we have already in O'Shaughnessy and Oliver. 

In fairness. I could be completely full of [BLEEP] and he ends up here anyway and produces like Marcedes Lewis did back in 2010. We'll see.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I'm not sweating it for a 5th or 6th round pick.  The ravens are deep at TE. Not shocked they are willing to part with one. I'm sure they are surprised that the one they are willing to part with is the guy they drafted ahead of Lamar Jackson, but that's how it ended up. 

If the director of pro personnel is telling Dave that Hurst for a fifth round pick is better than any TE he'll get in the fifth round of the 2020 draft, then it's not an unreasonable way of adding talent to the position group.

Hurst had a mere 39 targets in 2019 (30 receptions).  I'm not going to pretend I've watched all of them and have a report put together on his receiving abilities. Maybe he's worth a 5th, maybe he's not.  

But I do understand why the Jags are exploring all avenues to bolster the TE room. And if they see Hurst as a viable option, so be it.

 There's a reason he went 25th overall initially and he's subsequently had a rookie season spoiled by injury, and a second year where he ended up behind a very good TE in Andrews, and essentially split the #2 snaps with Nick Boyle who also played well. I'm not so sure that there's nothing to salvage from Hurst. 

Personally, I had my eyes on a couple of free agents that I'd still prioritize, but I get it. 

There were a ton of people here lamenting the loss of O'Shaughnessy as a reason for the offense's sputtering mid season. If you believe that - and many do - Is that player not worth a fifth round pick?

Remains to be seen. The problem now is that the entire offense will be new and every player involved will have to learn it and pick up on it. It's not that I don't think he's worth a draft pick. I just don't see how he fits at the moment here in particular because you already have a guy built just like him. 

And how good can Hurst possibly be if he was one of the least utilized components to that offense in 2019? That's a problem for me. He was out played by Andrews and essentially split time with Boyle in 2019. 

O'Shaughnessy and Hurst don't look like Gresham, Eifert nor Reed to me on paper as far as natural receiving ability. Those are the types of guys we need based on Gruden's history. And the only splash plays I have seen out of them two were mostly from broken coverage. I haven't seen them really separate or split a defense wide open right down the middle. 

Hopefully Oliver showcases some of that ability in year two in that move role like he did at San Diego St. Honestly I am just really high on those three particular TE's from this year's class. And I think they would be better compliments to what we have already in O'Shaughnessy and Oliver. 

In fairness. I could be completely full of [BLEEP] and he ends up here anyway and produces like Marcedes Lewis did back in 2010. We'll see.

I think the role/expectation for Hurst here would be to compete for the #2 role with O'Shaughnessy with the loser providing quality depth or rotation. Which feels reasonable for a 5th round pick and 3 mil per year. 

I don't think anyone is looking at him as the big fix for the TE drought in Jacksonville. Just a piece of the puzzle that at the least prevents a starting lineup of 2 street free agents in week 14.

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4th this year and a 5th next?

Even a 4th seems like too much for that guy. I'd give a 6th.

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Remains to be seen. The problem now is that the entire offense will be new and every player involved will have to learn it and pick up on it. It's not that I don't think he's worth a draft pick. I just don't see how he fits at the moment here in particular because you already have a guy built just like him. 

And how good can Hurst possibly be if he was one of the least utilized components to that offense in 2019? That's a problem for me. He was out played by Andrews and essentially split time with Boyle in 2019. 

O'Shaughnessy and Hurst don't look like Gresham, Eifert nor Reed to me on paper as far as natural receiving ability. Those are the types of guys we need based on Gruden's history. And the only splash plays I have seen out of them two were mostly from broken coverage. I haven't seen them really separate or split a defense wide open right down the middle. 

Hopefully Oliver showcases some of that ability in year two in that move role like he did at San Diego St. Honestly I am just really high on those three particular TE's from this year's class. And I think they would be better compliments to what we have already in O'Shaughnessy and Oliver. 

In fairness. I could be completely full of [BLEEP] and he ends up here anyway and produces like Marcedes Lewis did back in 2010. We'll see.

I think the role/expectation for Hurst here would be to compete for the #2 role with O'Shaughnessy with the loser providing quality depth or rotation. Which feels reasonable for a 5th round pick and 3 mil per year. 

I don't think anyone is looking at him as the big fix for the TE drought in Jacksonville. Just a piece of the puzzle that at the least prevents a starting lineup of 2 street free agents in week 14.

Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I think the role/expectation for Hurst here would be to compete for the #2 role with O'Shaughnessy with the loser providing quality depth or rotation. Which feels reasonable for a 5th round pick and 3 mil per year. 

I don't think anyone is looking at him as the big fix for the TE drought in Jacksonville. Just a piece of the puzzle that at the least prevents a starting lineup of 2 street free agents in week 14.

Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

Well if that's the case then Foles will be the starter.

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Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

Well if that's the case then Foles will be the starter.

QB is wayyyyyy different than TE. You and I both know that. 

And even our lovely HC and GM just went on record today saying it's still an open competition for the QB job. So anything goes.

And seeing as how these two dip [BLEEP] have operated over the years. I wouldn't put it past them to justify his salary over Minshew somehow. They allowed us to suffer three straight weeks with Foles after he was throwing 50/50 balls up in London.

This year it'll potentially be worse because there SHOULD be some [BLEEP] on the line this year across the entire organization.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Well if that's the case then Foles will be the starter.

QB is wayyyyyy different than TE. You and I both know that. 

And even our lovely HC and GM just went on record today saying it's still an open competition for the QB job. So anything goes.

Doubtful that it's a true open competition.

---

QB is wayyyyyy different than TE. You and I both know that. 

And even our lovely HC and GM just went on record today saying it's still an open competition for the QB job. So anything goes.

Doubtful that it's a true open competition.

If Foles looks better in practice during training camp? Wouldn't be shocked. Don't forget it's a new OC and a new system with Gruden this year. And a lot of jobs are on the line. At least they should be. 

Desperation will be in the air.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I think the role/expectation for Hurst here would be to compete for the #2 role with O'Shaughnessy with the loser providing quality depth or rotation. Which feels reasonable for a 5th round pick and 3 mil per year. 

I don't think anyone is looking at him as the big fix for the TE drought in Jacksonville. Just a piece of the puzzle that at the least prevents a starting lineup of 2 street free agents in week 14.

Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

Completely inconsequential.  3M is pocket lint in this league.

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I think the role/expectation for Hurst here would be to compete for the #2 role with O'Shaughnessy with the loser providing quality depth or rotation. Which feels reasonable for a 5th round pick and 3 mil per year. 

I don't think anyone is looking at him as the big fix for the TE drought in Jacksonville. Just a piece of the puzzle that at the least prevents a starting lineup of 2 street free agents in week 14.

Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

Nice thing for the Jags is that, in a trade, the Ravens eat the remaining prorated/unamortized cap amount in his current contract.  The Jags cap hit would only be the bases of $1.5m this year and $2.0 next year.

---

Below is what the Ravens would be losing / gaining by trading him prior to June 1st this year. O'Shaughnessy is making less than that. So is Josh Oliver.

If you're forking over a draft pick, no matter how high or low in value. I would be led to believe he's here to be the starter based on his salary alone. Not to be Numero Dos.

$3M to pay for a rotational back up or 2nd stringer seems foolish. I get the idea of wanting "quality" depth. But they're looking at more holes on defense right now and that $3M could be a difference maker elsewhere in regards to maybe keeping a current starter or not.

We'll see.

Hayden Hurst
$1,483,276 - Base Salary - All Guaranteed
$1,526,551 - Prorated
$0 - Bonus
$3,009,827 - Cap Number

$3,053,102 - Dead Money
($43,275) - Cap Savings

Completely inconsequential.  3M is pocket lint in this league.

Sure. And that same "inconsequential" amount of money could be the difference between keeping Yannick Ngakoue or some other starter we may want to keep around for at least 2020.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Completely inconsequential.  3M is pocket lint in this league.

Sure. And that same "inconsequential" amount of money could be the difference between keeping Yannick Ngakoue or some other starter we may want to keep around for at least 2020.

I really don't think so.  There's still quite a bit of wiggle room to release a number of players taking up space on the roster that may not be part of any long term plan. 

Marqise Lee and Abry Jones immediately spring to mind and would free 9.25 million in 2020. 

They have very little money tied up in the TE position group. I don't see the Hurst add as a major or prohibitive expenditure. 

I don't actually hate the group of Oliver, Swaim, O'Shaug, and Jones as much as many seem to. But it makes sense to add talent.  
Heck - If they cut Swaim, Hurst would slide right into that same spot at a slightly lower salary. 
It would basically just cost them the late pick.

---

Sure. And that same "inconsequential" amount of money could be the difference between keeping Yannick Ngakoue or some other starter we may want to keep around for at least 2020.

I really don't think so.  There's still quite a bit of wiggle room to release a number of players taking up space on the roster that may not be part of any long term plan. 

Marqise Lee and Abry Jones immediately spring to mind and would free 9.25 million in 2020. 

They have very little money tied up in the TE position group. I don't see the Hurst add as a major or prohibitive expenditure. 

I don't actually hate the group of Oliver, Swaim, O'Shaug, and Jones as much as many seem to. But it makes sense to add talent.  
Heck - If they cut Swaim, Hurst would slide right into that same spot at a slightly lower salary. 
It would basically just cost them the late pick.

Guess it makes sense. I just have a bad feeling with Hurst. Doesn't seem like he's worth any investment. And then it lowers the pecking order a bit at the position in the draft. Would hate to see another talent like Dallas Goedert end up on a good team. There's a few guys just like him in this draft.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I really don't think so.  There's still quite a bit of wiggle room to release a number of players taking up space on the roster that may not be part of any long term plan. 

Marqise Lee and Abry Jones immediately spring to mind and would free 9.25 million in 2020. 

They have very little money tied up in the TE position group. I don't see the Hurst add as a major or prohibitive expenditure. 

I don't actually hate the group of Oliver, Swaim, O'Shaug, and Jones as much as many seem to. But it makes sense to add talent.  
Heck - If they cut Swaim, Hurst would slide right into that same spot at a slightly lower salary. 
It would basically just cost them the late pick.

Guess it makes sense. I just have a bad feeling with Hurst. Doesn't seem like he's worth any investment. And then it lowers the pecking order a bit at the position in the draft. Would hate to see another talent like Dallas Goedert end up on a good team. There's a few guys just like him in this draft.

You very well may be right about Hurst.  I don't claim to know if he's worth giving up a pick.  But I have seen several analysts lament how weak the TE class is this year after the first 4 or 5 guys.  So I'm assuming that's a factor here.
There likely aren't going to be any 4th or 5th round  "Kittle-esque"  steals at the position in this draft if the experts are to be believed.

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Doesn't the front office and coach have to pitch the open competition QB narrative? I mean have to drive up the Foles stock right?

This team is sad. I hope Minshew comes in like a man possessed and makes the next season fun. Honestly the win now is hanging like funeral incense over this team.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Too many assume Oliver starts. Hurst would be the better player Day 1 of Camp while Oliver, who really hasn't played in a year gets up to speed.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Not sure we should consider having 2 players with the name Hayden, whether it be in their first name or last name. It may get confusing for this team of underachievers. We need to keep things in the most simplistic form possible.

---

Are there still people on here who think David Caldwell is a competent General Manager?

General Manager of what?  It really depends.

GM for someplace like Autozone?  Sure.

GM for an NFL franchise?  Iffy at best.  He's made some good moves, but the stench of failed first round draft picks has really been pretty overwhelming.  

As far as Hurst goes, the team was considering him when he was drafted.  He's a local kid.  He's better than what we have currently, including Oliver because he can't get on the field, so technically he'd be an upgrade.  There are only so many holes you can fill through the draft.  Once they do their cap purge, they will have very little money to play with in free agency to get anyone better, and TE is an area of need.  I don't think it would take nearly as high a draft pick, or even multiple picks to secure him.  Giving up a 5th rounder would probably be a workable deal.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

2017 was a deep TE draft class- 8 TE's were taken before Kittle:
- OJ Howard
- Evan Engram
- David Njoku
- Gerald Everett
- Adam Shaheen
- Jonnu Smith
- Michael Roberts
- Jake Butt

The group has had varied success in the NFL, I think Roberts is the only one out of the league.

I remember NYC pounding the drum for a TE from that class.

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Season Ticket holder since 2004.

 

        

The fact of the matter is the Jags have never had a great tight end. Lewis had that one year fluke of 10 TD's but was more of a 6th offensive lineman than a tight end. Pete Mitchell and Kyle Brady are about the epitome for this franchise. Hopefully that changes soon.

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