(06-11-2020, 12:08 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: You've heard it ad nauseum. There is a group of wealthy influencers that believe in a globalist, socialist world. America is the largest obstacle to that vision, because it has a unique culture that is anti-authoritarian and self-interested. The soviet union broke itself trying to undo the American sense of identity and individuality.

Honestly, dude, it's a waste of time to try to write it all here, because there is SO many different rabbit holes you have to hop down to start making sense of it all. I need to talk about Marxism and the goals of the early 20th century (I could go back further even, to the inception of communist ideals in Germany and the problems they faced as they pitched this philosophy there, before being driven out of the country or underground). I need to talk about the philosophy that preceded it and dealt directly with creating revolution in industrialized countries. I need to talk about the cold war, and the US/Russian propaganda and tactics that lead to practices like disinformation and sleeper cells. I need to talk about the American schools of communist thought and how they also were driven underground before resurfacing  in the 60's. I need to talk about how they came to prominence in institutions and the long term strategies pitched by their philosophers. I also need to talk about what separates them from their Russian counterparts. I need to talk about how things changed as the cold war escalated, especially the use of language, and how the term "communism" became a dirty word. Actually, I'd really need to spend a lot of time on language, as this is a primary strategy in affecting change, but it came directly out of communist thought. I need to talk about how things changed after the cold war ended. I need to talk about how the strategies are continuing to evolve and change as the left takes control of various institutions. Only once we have a shared understanding of that history can we begin to make light of what's going on. How much of this stuff have you actually studied?

The truth is that books can and have been written about this subject. I don't expect everyone to have read any of it, but it's foolish to to pretend that we are not in an ideological war. It's foolish to believe we are in a battle over any one issue. The goal is to find issues in disparate groups and bind them under a similar ideology. Muslim issues. Check. Immigration issues. Check. Black issues. Check. Union issues. Check. LGTBQ issues. Check. Environmental issues. Check. These groups have entirely different goals, but their grievances are being tied to American capitalism. When you go to the major activist websites for these groups, you will see they advocate socialist values and the underlying claim is that these issues can't be resolved in an American capitalist system. The word, comrade, is used twice on the BLM website. Tell me, how many black folks that use the word comrade? These groups are funded by wealthy backers that believe they can help achieve their vision of the world, and it's evident the connection when you start reading their mission statements.

So basically you strongly believe that capitalism tied to nationalism is a much better system of government than socialism tied to globalism, right? That's a legitimate position, nobody has any problem with you feeling strongly about it. It is, of course, something that can and should be debated. That's how democracy should function.

The problem is that you steadfastly link your opponents in that debate to some shadowy international conspiracy to destabilise the world (or being puppets of), instead of being people who just see the world differently to you.

The groups / causes you list as being part of this grand socialist globalist conspiracy to destabilize the world undoubtedly do share some socialist globalist ideas. That is because the people fighting for those causes see those ideas as the best way to find solutions to problems. Of course civil liberties groups, workers rights groups and environmental groups see some solutions in socialist and global thinking, it has always been that way and always will be. That doesn't mean all these groups are being clandestinely manipulated by a bigger force. It just means that many people have different ideas about governance than you do.

To be clear, I'm not arguing one side or the other, and I don't plan to start doing that on this forum. I just think it's massively important to recognize that this is a debate about governance. Framing an opposing viewpoint as being part of some shadowy grand global conspiracy is a hindrance to debate, and a hindrance to the true function of democracy.

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