KC Patrick Mahomes and Tyreek Hill.

Mahomes and Kelce

Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

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Why is it not an option? Not because we won't trade it away, but because there is literally no trade deal available that would be worth that, given the limits on how far out draft picks can be traded.

It would have to be a trade including a player (or multiple players), and one of those players would have to be a sufficiently sure-fire quarterback that the rest of the deal to make up the value wouldn't be on offer by the team moving up to take a quarterback. If you're able to offer the value of the pick, you don't need the pick that badly. If you need the pick that badly, you don't have the capital to match its value.

Because the question is about trading the pick not about retaining it. Pretty simple concept really...

The question is about the value of the pick. The answer is that the value of the pick is higher than what can, under current rules, be practically traded for it by any team that would be willing to trade for it.

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Because the question is about trading the pick not about retaining it. Pretty simple concept really...

The question is about the value of the pick. The answer is that the value of the pick is higher than what can, under current rules, be practically traded for it by any team that would be willing to trade for it.

Great, thanks for playing.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Mahomes and Kelce

Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

I have to disagree, Trevor Lawrence being half the superstar Mahomes is right now is nothing more thab a dream. The man has started for 3 seasons and in all 3 seasons the worst outcome will be a afc title game loss and probably 2 super bowl  wins. I lnow theres hype around Lawrence and all but if anyone on this board is expecting him to be anywhere near as good as Mahomes im sorry but your just gonna be disappointed more than likely.

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Why would nothing not be an option? I see it in the "spirit of the discussion just like assigning a value. Some things just do not have a price in life...forcing others to assign a value seems a bit heavy handed.

It seems so simple to not participate if you can't participate. Nothing is not an option because it's both easy and the most likely position for all of us. This is intended to discuss trade value and alternate scenarios, and the number 1 pick has ton of it.

Yeah, but the alternative is what you are getting here:  Outlandish proposals that sound like Stigma on speed.

I can't see two trades happening within the same year that may exceed the Herschel Walker deal.

Rumors of a Deshaun Watson trade are mentioning three years of 1st and 2nd round picks or more.  (For the record, I'm still unsure what I would think about that.  Get Watson out of our division [good], or having the Texans with all of those high picks [bad].)

I am all for fostering discussion/debate, but this topic is going to be different than most given the consensus opinion of Trevor Lawrence.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Mahomes and Kelce

Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

Mahommes is still only 25.  Most experts would agree he's already proven to be the most valuable player in the league, destined to be one of the best ever.  He transforms an otherwise average team into a contender and should for another 12+ years.   
Lawrence is expected to very good (and probably will be) but as good as Mahommes is unlikely and better is just a dream.  Granted he presumably gives us an additional 4 years at a lower price, but that doesn't make an unproven guy more valuable than a superstar.  Straight up, that's a trade I would take.  Adding Kelce makes it a no-brainer.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

In the interest of the thread.

How about:
Miami’s 2 first rounders this year
Miami’s 1 and 2 next year
and Tua

We would add a premier LT or WR with the 3rd overall pick and we would still have 4 more picks in the first 2 rounds.

Tua’s stock is a bit low, but I believe he will improve on his rookie season.

That is an offer I'd see as competitive. Any idea why Miami is in the rumors about Deshaun Watson? Are they that soured on Tua?

Have you guys watched Tua play? The guy is a bust. He looks like Gabbert out there with a better TD:Int ratio. There is no way I would trade for him. He is a below average QB at best, and should not have been started.

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

I have to disagree, Trevor Lawrence being half the superstar Mahomes is right now is nothing more thab a dream. The man has started for 3 seasons and in all 3 seasons the worst outcome will be a afc title game loss and probably 2 super bowl  wins. I lnow theres hype around Lawrence and all but if anyone on this board is expecting him to be anywhere near as good as Mahomes im sorry but your just gonna be disappointed more than likely.

If Trevor Lawrence becomes a much more durable version of Andrew Luck from a performance / impact combination standpoint,  I think he would have more long term value to the Jaguars than Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelce would have from the 2021 season on.

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Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

Mahommes is still only 25.  Most experts would agree he's already proven to be the most valuable player in the league, destined to be one of the best ever.  He transforms an otherwise average team into a contender and should for another 12+ years.   
Lawrence is expected to very good (and probably will be) but as good as Mahommes is unlikely and better is just a dream.  Granted he presumably gives us an additional 4 years at a lower price, but that doesn't make an unproven guy more valuable than a superstar.  Straight up, that's a trade I would take.  Adding Kelce makes it a no-brainer.

 I respect your opinion and the opinion of others expressing a similar opinion.  

Trevor Lawrence doesn't have to be as good as Patrick Mahomes to have more value to the Jaguars than Mahomes would, beginning with the 2021 season.  Because of the salary cap savings and the age difference.... if Lawrence is considered around the 4th or 5th best QB in the NFL in a typical season and ends up having a long playing career,  I think Lawrence's value will exceed what Mahomes and Travis Kelce would provide the Jaguars.

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Mahommes is still only 25.  Most experts would agree he's already proven to be the most valuable player in the league, destined to be one of the best ever.  He transforms an otherwise average team into a contender and should for another 12+ years.   
Lawrence is expected to very good (and probably will be) but as good as Mahommes is unlikely and better is just a dream.  Granted he presumably gives us an additional 4 years at a lower price, but that doesn't make an unproven guy more valuable than a superstar.  Straight up, that's a trade I would take.  Adding Kelce makes it a no-brainer.

 I respect your opinion and the opinion of others expressing a similar opinion.  

Trevor Lawrence doesn't have to be as good as Patrick Mahomes to have more value to the Jaguars than Mahomes would, beginning with the 2021 season.  Because of the salary cap savings and the age difference.... if Lawrence is considered around the 4th or 5th best QB in the NFL in a typical season and ends up having a long playing career,  I think Lawrence's value will exceed what Mahomes and Travis Kelce would provide the Jaguars.

That depends, to a great extent, on how you define "value".  Is a competitive team that consistently makes the playoffs enough if you don't win the big one?  If the difference between the best and 4/5th best QBs through the next 10 years translates into a couple of SB wins, my opinion is no.  Others may disagree.

With the 4/5th best QB our 2017 team would have won it all, but that was an outlier year for the defense.  Granted, a QB on a rookie contract gives you money to spread around improving other positions.  
Coaching is somewhat of a concern as well.  With Lawrence,  we're developing a rookie with under a guy unproven in the NFL.  With Mahommes, there's no worry about him getting "broken" by ineffective coaching.

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When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

That is an offer I'd see as competitive. Any idea why Miami is in the rumors about Deshaun Watson? Are they that soured on Tua?

Have you guys watched Tua play? The guy is a bust. He looks like Gabbert out there with a better TD:Int ratio. There is no way I would trade for him. He is a below average QB at best, and should not have been started.

Yes, the thought is the Jags would be buying low. The other 3 first round picks represent the bulk of the value coming from Miami.

Tua is an added bonus with upside. Considering he was coming off a terrible injury and should have sat this past year, it is ridiculous to call him a bust already.

Just to reiterate, I probably wouldn’t do this deal. It is just an interesting thread to bounce around ideas.

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Have you guys watched Tua play? The guy is a bust. He looks like Gabbert out there with a better TD:Int ratio. There is no way I would trade for him. He is a below average QB at best, and should not have been started.

Yes, the thought is the Jags would be buying low.  The other 3 first round picks represent the bulk of the value coming from Miami.  

Tua is an added bonus with upside.  Considering he was coming off a terrible injury and should have sat this past year, it is ridiculous to call him a bust already.  

Just to reiterate, I probably wouldn’t do this deal.  It is just an interesting thread to bounce around ideas.

I have not watched Tua play this past season except in highlights. "Rookie QB played bad" isn't enough to explain all the scuttlebutt about him being traded though.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

That is an offer I'd see as competitive. Any idea why Miami is in the rumors about Deshaun Watson? Are they that soured on Tua?

Have you guys watched Tua play? The guy is a bust. He looks like Gabbert out there with a better TD:Int ratio. There is no way I would trade for him. He is a below average QB at best, and should not have been started.

I've never thought Tua was that good but when the get DeVanta Smith and Najee Harris, they will make him look good just like they did at Alabama.  Dolphins are going to be a tough team next year.  Smith is the beat WR I've seen since Justin Blackmon but he dont have the off field issues like Blackmon did

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We have never had a great QB and we finally get a chance to get one of the best QB prospects ever an we are discussing trading back.  Let's just stay at 1 and draft one of the best QB prospects ever and get our QB

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

I specifically remember Chris Berman saying Mark Brunell was an MVP caliber QB and there’s nobody better than Mark Brunell. Especially during the 1997,1998, and 1999 season. Brunell had a cannon. That throw on 3rd down up in Denver was the greatest play in the history of the franchise and Brunell put it on the money like he has so many other times. 

He led the league in passing and rushing for qbs, he made the pro bowl and also made pro bowl mvp. Brunell was the real deal.
If the Jags would have traded him in his prime he would have netted atleast 2 first round picks and a couple of players. 

He is the greatest QB to ever suit up for the Jags. Just go back and watch his videos on YouTube. Type in Jaguars 1996, Jaguars 1997, Jaguars 1998, Jaguars 1999. There’s a channel named All Highlights which shows all the ESPN highlights from every game for every season. Go to the playlist and watch starting from 1998 and watch how great Brunell really was.

Don’t go to nfl.com and look at his stats. Go watch him play. He was one of the best QBs in the league in the 90’s.

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

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We have never had a great QB and we finally get a chance to get one of the best QB prospects ever an we are discussing trading back.  Let's just stay at 1 and draft one of the best QB prospects ever and get our QB

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

I specifically remember Chris Berman saying Mark Brunell was an MVP caliber QB and there’s nobody better than Mark Brunell. Especially during the 1997,1998, and 1999 season. Brunell had a cannon. That throw on 3rd down up in Denver was the greatest play in the history of the franchise and Brunell put it on the money like he has so many other times. 

He led the league in passing and rushing for qbs, he made the pro bowl and also made pro bowl mvp. Brunell was the real deal.
If the Jags would have traded him in his prime he would have netted atleast 2 first round picks and a couple of players. 

He is the greatest QB to ever suit up for the Jags. Just go back and watch his videos on YouTube. Type in Jaguars 1996, Jaguars 1997, Jaguars 1998, Jaguars 1999. There’s a channel named All Highlights which shows all the ESPN highlights from every game for every season. Go to the playlist and watch starting from 1998 and watch how great Brunell really was.

Don’t go to nfl.com and look at his stats. Go watch him play. He was one of the best QBs in the league in the 90’s.

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Lol, I've been a fan since day 1, I watched almost every game, I don't need to watch highlights.   He might of had a great season in 96 but he wasn't a great QB.  "Pro Bowl MVP" lol, Kyle Rudolph has a Pro Bowl MVP.  Our definition of great are obviously different

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We have never had a great QB and we finally get a chance to get one of the best QB prospects ever an we are discussing trading back.  Let's just stay at 1 and draft one of the best QB prospects ever and get our QB

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

I specifically remember Chris Berman saying Mark Brunell was an MVP caliber QB and there’s nobody better than Mark Brunell. Especially during the 1997,1998, and 1999 season. Brunell had a cannon. That throw on 3rd down up in Denver was the greatest play in the history of the franchise and Brunell put it on the money like he has so many other times. 

He led the league in passing and rushing for qbs, he made the pro bowl and also made pro bowl mvp. Brunell was the real deal.
If the Jags would have traded him in his prime he would have netted atleast 2 first round picks and a couple of players. 

He is the greatest QB to ever suit up for the Jags. Just go back and watch his videos on YouTube. Type in Jaguars 1996, Jaguars 1997, Jaguars 1998, Jaguars 1999. There’s a channel named All Highlights which shows all the ESPN highlights from every game for every season. Go to the playlist and watch starting from 1998 and watch how great Brunell really was.

Don’t go to nfl.com and look at his stats. Go watch him play. He was one of the best QBs in the league in the 90’s.

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Ridiculous as always. 

Brunell was very good, he wasn't great.

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"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

I specifically remember Chris Berman saying Mark Brunell was an MVP caliber QB and there’s nobody better than Mark Brunell. Especially during the 1997,1998, and 1999 season. Brunell had a cannon. That throw on 3rd down up in Denver was the greatest play in the history of the franchise and Brunell put it on the money like he has so many other times. 

He led the league in passing and rushing for qbs, he made the pro bowl and also made pro bowl mvp. Brunell was the real deal.
If the Jags would have traded him in his prime he would have netted atleast 2 first round picks and a couple of players. 

He is the greatest QB to ever suit up for the Jags. Just go back and watch his videos on YouTube. Type in Jaguars 1996, Jaguars 1997, Jaguars 1998, Jaguars 1999. There’s a channel named All Highlights which shows all the ESPN highlights from every game for every season. Go to the playlist and watch starting from 1998 and watch how great Brunell really was.

Don’t go to nfl.com and look at his stats. Go watch him play. He was one of the best QBs in the league in the 90’s.

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Ridiculous as always. 

Brunell was very good, he wasn't great.

This lol, he also had the best WR duo, best LT, and a beast run game

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We have never had a great QB and we finally get a chance to get one of the best QB prospects ever an we are discussing trading back.  Let's just stay at 1 and draft one of the best QB prospects ever and get our QB

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

[snip]

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Brunell had a great stretch for us, about 5 years for sure. People suffer recency bias and tend to forget just how good he was. Where you're going to see pushback though is he wasn't an all time great in terms of the league. He has been our one and only true franchise QB but we shouldn't overestimate him either. I still disagree with putting him in The Pride because unlike Smith, Boselli, and Taylor he'll never be considered a future HOF candidate. He was fun to watch in his prime though.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

[snip]

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Brunell had a great stretch for us, about 5 years for sure. People suffer recency bias and tend to forget just how good he was. Where you're going to see pushback though is he wasn't an all time great in terms of the league. He has been our one and only true franchise QB but we shouldn't overestimate him either. I still disagree with putting him in The Pride because unlike Smith, Boselli, and Taylor he'll never be considered a future HOF candidate. He was fun to watch in his prime though.

Brunell was never a true franchise QB. He was a decent QB, but the franchise label is really tortured around here. The jaguars have never had a true franchise QB.

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Mahomes and Kelce

Patrick Mahomes is on a path to be a 1st Ballot HOFer. Travis Kelce is probably the best all around TE in the NFL.  Yet, because Trevor Lawrence would be playing under his rookie NFL contract for 4 years ( unless a contract extension was agreed upon in year 4 ), a strong case can be made for the Jaguars not to make this hypothetical trade. That much more with Kelce turning 32 during the 2021 season.  

Exactly.  People who comically want DeShaun Watson for Trevor Lawrence have no understanding of the rookie contract and the cap.

The Russell Wilson rookie contract model was to stack the team while he was on his rookie contract.  They almost won two super bowls with it.  Once the rookie contract expires and the QB is on the baloon, expensive contract then they have less money to sign or retain great players.

The Rams tried to do this with Goff but lost to the Pats in the Super Bowl and then Goff's new contract kicked in and they had to let go of talent to accommodate the cap.

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When fans say that we’ve never had a great QB it makes me cringe.

[snip]

Stop saying we’ve never had a great QB. Brunell was the man. Go watch.

Brunell had a great stretch for us, about 5 years for sure. People suffer recency bias and tend to forget just how good he was. Where you're going to see pushback though is he wasn't an all time great in terms of the league. He has been our one and only true franchise QB but we shouldn't overestimate him either. I still disagree with putting him in The Pride because unlike Smith, Boselli, and Taylor he'll never be considered a future HOF candidate. He was fun to watch in his prime though.

Brunnell was a 5th round pick. 
3 time Pro Bowler (I think some of those were alternates)
zero All-Pros.

Don't really consider him a franchise QB.  Franchise QB being someone who you can build a team around and win a Super Bowl.

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