Man looks like patrick star in real life.

---

I've  even waving the Meyer flag since before the hire, but this is a bad look.

How?

How can this happen???

WITH ALL THE S&C Coaches available...HOW THE [BLEEP] IS THIS GUY HIRED???

That's my concern. Is he Urban's relative, have they worked together? This hints at some type of nepotism or "good ol boys" network.

I believe Meyer and Doyle worked together for one year back while Meyer was coaching in Utah.  I think that history only came into play in terms of Meyer believing Doyle when he likely said in private that he will change and wouldn't commit the same mistakes again.  Doyle had significant qualifications.  He had 20 years of experience and was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football at the time of his removal.  It was clearly an error of judgement by Meyer, but I don't doubt that his motivation was driven by anything other than trying to improve the football team.

---

That's 100% not true. In today's environment just being accused of something is all it takes, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn't pay attention. Now I will agree that evidence is important and I don't think he should be getting the black ball UNLESS it's true, but where's the proof?

The applicable  case law strongly disagrees with you.

As to your closing question, what kind of proof do you expect?!?

To my knowledge, there has been no civil suit filed against Doyle on these matters.  If there were a civil suit filed, the standard the plaintiffs would have to meet is liability by a "preponderance of the evidence" which means unlike the criminal standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," all a civil plaintiff/group of plaintiffs would have to do is have as little as 50.1% of the evidence in their favor. Taking the facts as we know them, there are over FIFTY (50) players alleging various sorts of mistreatment and effectively two people denying it. 

Given the environment of a football locker room, it is doubtful Doyle would have reduced the racially tinged chastisements to writing.

But to be honest, there are those who would not accept any proof of racial discrimination as acceptable or persuasive.  There have been countless examples of this on these boards over my close to two decades here.

I never once said "legal". If you are of a particular group of people and you're accused of something your life can be ruined even if it never happened. Period.

---

"Don't argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

I've  even waving the Meyer flag since before the hire, but this is a bad look.

How?

How can this happen???

WITH ALL THE S&C Coaches available...HOW THE [BLEEP] IS THIS GUY HIRED???

That's my concern. Is he Urban's relative, have they worked together? This hints at some type of nepotism or "good ol boys" network.

I believe Meyer and Doyle worked together for one year back while Meyer was coaching in Utah.  I think that history only came into play in terms of Meyer believing Doyle when he likely said in private that he will change and wouldn't commit the same mistakes again.  Doyle had significant qualifications.  He had 20 years of experience and was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football at the time of his removal.  It was clearly an error of judgement by Meyer, but I don't doubt that his motivation was driven by anything other than trying to improve the football team.

....and throwing an old friend a bone. Let's not fool ourselves.

---

The applicable  case law strongly disagrees with you.

As to your closing question, what kind of proof do you expect?!?

To my knowledge, there has been no civil suit filed against Doyle on these matters.  If there were a civil suit filed, the standard the plaintiffs would have to meet is liability by a "preponderance of the evidence" which means unlike the criminal standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," all a civil plaintiff/group of plaintiffs would have to do is have as little as 50.1% of the evidence in their favor. Taking the facts as we know them, there are over FIFTY (50) players alleging various sorts of mistreatment and effectively two people denying it. 

Given the environment of a football locker room, it is doubtful Doyle would have reduced the racially tinged chastisements to writing.

But to be honest, there are those who would not accept any proof of racial discrimination as acceptable or persuasive.  There have been countless examples of this on these boards over my close to two decades here.

I never once said "legal". If you are of a particular group of people and you're accused of something your life can be ruined even if it never happened. Period.

No, you didn't, which is odd considering an adverse judgment in a legal matter-civil or criminal-can ruin your life.  The results of which are public record.  But at least in a court of law, you have the opportunity to offer evidence disproving the allegations.

You also didn't mention "life or death," either, because, as you say, "if you are of a particular group of people and you're accused of something, your life can be ruined [or ended], even if it never happened. Period."

---

I've  even waving the Meyer flag since before the hire, but this is a bad look.

How?

How can this happen???

WITH ALL THE S&C Coaches available...HOW THE [BLEEP] IS THIS GUY HIRED???

That's my concern. Is he Urban's relative, have they worked together? This hints at some type of nepotism or "good ol boys" network.

I believe Meyer and Doyle worked together for one year back while Meyer was coaching in Utah.  I think that history only came into play in terms of Meyer believing Doyle when he likely said in private that he will change and wouldn't commit the same mistakes again.  Doyle had significant qualifications.  He had 20 years of experience and was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football at the time of his removal.  It was clearly an error of judgement by Meyer, but I don't doubt that his motivation was driven by anything other than trying to improve the football team.

Exactly.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I believe Meyer and Doyle worked together for one year back while Meyer was coaching in Utah.  I think that history only came into play in terms of Meyer believing Doyle when he likely said in private that he will change and wouldn't commit the same mistakes again.  Doyle had significant qualifications.  He had 20 years of experience and was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football at the time of his removal.  It was clearly an error of judgement by Meyer, but I don't doubt that his motivation was driven by anything other than trying to improve the football team.

....and throwing an old friend a bone. Let's not fool ourselves.

Well...this too.

But I don't see Meyer twisting his proverbial mustache concocting nefarious schemes to be racist or anything.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I believe Meyer and Doyle worked together for one year back while Meyer was coaching in Utah.  I think that history only came into play in terms of Meyer believing Doyle when he likely said in private that he will change and wouldn't commit the same mistakes again.  Doyle had significant qualifications.  He had 20 years of experience and was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football at the time of his removal.  It was clearly an error of judgement by Meyer, but I don't doubt that his motivation was driven by anything other than trying to improve the football team.

....and throwing an old friend a bone. Let's not fool ourselves.

He threw him a bone because they worked together for one season over 20 years ago?  Not likely. Why do you think Doyle was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football?  Don't you think it's possible that Meyer might have hired Doyle for that reason?

---

....and throwing an old friend a bone. Let's not fool ourselves.

He threw him a bone because they worked together for one season over 20 years ago?  Not likely.  Why do you think Doyle was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football?  Don't you think it's possible that Meyer might have hired Doyle for that reason?

The Venn Diagram here does not have to be two separate circles. There is overlap, but do you think he'd have brought him in on resume alone if he had never worked with him before? There is a fraternity among these guys, and the good old boys take care of each other. Meyer's already proved he's willing to overlook transgressions when it comes to his friends, and again, I don't fault him for trying to give someone he knows a hand up, but he probably should have let him start a few pegs down the org chart and work his way back up. If the dude is as good as his resume says he is, that shouldn't have been a problem for him.

---

Again, I think it’s as simple as 1. Urban knew the value Doyle could bring as a S and C coach. 2. Yes they were friends, and he wanted to give Doyle a fresh slate to get a second chance and prove himself.


Unfortunately, we should have none of number 2 around here. Forgiveness and second chances are so twenty years ago. Unless your a star player.

---

Again, I think it’s as simple as 1. Urban knew the value Doyle could bring as a S and C coach. 2. Yes they were friends, and he wanted to give Doyle a fresh slate to get a second chance and prove himself.


Unfortunately, we should have none of number 2 around here. Forgiveness and second chances are so twenty years ago. Unless your a star player.

Forgiveness and a second chance both imply that Doyle did something to be forgiven for.  If he truly wants a second chance and to be forgiven, I would think he would have apologized at some point since this came to light.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Doyle has never made any type of statement of contrition or said that he was wrong, or apologized for anything he's done.  In fact in an ESPN story from June of last year Doyle said the following:

"At no time have I ever crossed the line of unethical behavior or bias based upon race. I do not make racist comments and I don't tolerate people who do." 

Why would I or anyone forgive a person who steadfastly denies doing anything wrong?  You either believe him or you believe the players that have spoken out regarding his behavior and his comments.  If you believe him - it's not a second chance situation, it's just hiring someone who was wrongfully accused.  If you believe the players, then why would you want him here when he denies saying what multiple people have gone on record accusing him of?  If the players are to be believed, then no - he doesn't deserve a second chance - not if he can't man-up and admit his behavior crossed the line. 

---

....and throwing an old friend a bone. Let's not fool ourselves.

He threw him a bone because they worked together for one season over 20 years ago?  Not likely.  Why do you think Doyle was the highest paid head strength and conditioning coach in college football?  Don't you think it's possible that Meyer might have hired Doyle for that reason?

He was clearly hired for his abilities as a S&T coach. Meyer just severely under estimated the backlash he would get from the hire. This isn't Ohio State where kids will go just because it is Ohio State and you give them a good chance to go to the pros. I also think he underestimated the Jags fan base tolerance for an alleged racist.

---

Again, I think it’s as simple as 1. Urban knew the value Doyle could bring as a S and C coach. 2. Yes they were friends, and he wanted to give Doyle a fresh slate to get a second chance and prove himself.


Unfortunately, we should have none of number 2 around here. Forgiveness and second chances are so twenty years ago. Unless your a star player.

People keep saying forgiveness and second chances, but it's not like Doyle has done anything to repair his reputation.  Second chances aren't and never were just given.  And it's not like Doyle is looking to start from the ground up and prove himself.  He's moving to a more prestigious position from the one he recently left.  He basically went from a college team to an NFL team in less than a year.  That's not a second chance, it's a promotion.

---

Again, I think it’s as simple as 1. Urban knew the value Doyle could bring as a S and C coach. 2. Yes they were friends, and he wanted to give Doyle a fresh slate to get a second chance and prove himself.


Unfortunately, we should have none of number 2 around here. Forgiveness and second chances are so twenty years ago. Unless your a star player.

Forgiveness and a second chance both imply that Doyle did something to be forgiven for.  If he truly wants a second chance and to be forgiven, I would think he would have apologized at some point since this came to light.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Doyle has never made any type of statement of contrition or said that he was wrong, or apologized for anything he's done.  In fact in an ESPN story from June of last year Doyle said the following:

"At no time have I ever crossed the line of unethical behavior or bias based upon race. I do not make racist comments and I don't tolerate people who do." 

Why would I or anyone forgive a person who steadfastly denies doing anything wrong?  You either believe him or you believe the players that have spoken out regarding his behavior and his comments.  If you believe him - it's not a second chance situation, it's just hiring someone who was wrongfully accused.  If you believe the players, then why would you want him here when he denies saying what multiple people have gone on record accusing him of?  If the players are to be believed, then no - he doesn't deserve a second chance - not if he can't man-up and admit his behavior crossed the line. 

Again we’re operating on the assumption he is guilty. But we do not have 100 percent solid proof of that. It’s word against word. And if people can get blacklisted for an accusation, then how do we have people convicted or proven beyond a reasonable doubt still in the league?

---

Forgiveness and a second chance both imply that Doyle did something to be forgiven for.  If he truly wants a second chance and to be forgiven, I would think he would have apologized at some point since this came to light.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Doyle has never made any type of statement of contrition or said that he was wrong, or apologized for anything he's done.  In fact in an ESPN story from June of last year Doyle said the following:

"At no time have I ever crossed the line of unethical behavior or bias based upon race. I do not make racist comments and I don't tolerate people who do." 

Why would I or anyone forgive a person who steadfastly denies doing anything wrong?  You either believe him or you believe the players that have spoken out regarding his behavior and his comments.  If you believe him - it's not a second chance situation, it's just hiring someone who was wrongfully accused.  If you believe the players, then why would you want him here when he denies saying what multiple people have gone on record accusing him of?  If the players are to be believed, then no - he doesn't deserve a second chance - not if he can't man-up and admit his behavior crossed the line. 

Again we’re operating on the assumption he is guilty. But we do not have 100 percent solid proof of that. It’s word against word. And if people can get blacklisted for an accusation, then how do we have people convicted or proven beyond a reasonable doubt still in the league?

1.  In no court in the land is "100 percent solid proof" of anything required to prove any case, either in civil or criminal litigation.  Considering the potential ramifications of an accusation are far more serious in court than the typical, unofficial accusation among "ordinary persons," I wonder why you require that standard here.  Keep in mind, if the allegations against him are false and injurious to his reputation, Doyle has the option of filing any number of suits with causes of action ranging from slander, libel, and defamation of character.  To my knowledge, he hasn't availed himself of that option.

2.  It's the word of over 50 players and an outside investigator against his.  People continue to miss this point.

3.  People have been blacklisted for far less than an accusation.  In the 1968 Olympics, two American athletes had their medals stripped by raising their fists.  Kaepernick got blacklisted for kneeling.  Apparently, speaking out against injustice is verboten.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

If a man is accused of rape, Americans are all like, "I'll warn my daughters/sisters about him. I wonder if he'll go to jail?"
If a man is accused of murder, Americans are all like, "Wow let's put him in jail and have a trial ASAP! I bet he did it."
But if a white man is accused of racism, white Americans are all like, "hold on a minute, you can't just SAY that about someone else! Where's your PROOF?! I bet YOU'RE the real racist!

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

When you live in a society where the term "racist" has been so watered down that most people roll their eyes at being accused of racism, they lose all credibility unless undeniable proof is given..

Innocent before proven guilty..

I wouldn't have cared either way if he was hired or not.. Show me solid proof of his racism and I'll rescind my judgement..

---

When you live in a society where the term "racist" has been so watered down that most people roll their eyes at being accused of racism, they lose all credibility unless undeniable proof is given..

Innocent before proven guilty..

I wouldn't have cared either way if he was hired or not.. Show me solid proof of his racism and I'll rescind my judgement..

You're contradicting yourself.
If "most people roller their eyes" why does the accusation matter?
Why deny it, if people roll their eyes at the accusation?

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

When you live in a society where the term "racist" has been so watered down that most people roll their eyes at being accused of racism, they lose all credibility unless undeniable proof is given..

Innocent before proven guilty..

I wouldn't have cared either way if he was hired or not.. Show me solid proof of his racism and I'll rescind my judgement..

There has always been ambivalence at towards racism, no matter how credible or proven the allegation.

There is ample historical record the Confederacy was motivated by racist belief.  Their ow words, from Alexander Stevens "Cornerstone of the Confederacy" speech, to the various Declarations of Secession.  They are readily available for perusal.  Yet to this day, people insist they (Confederates) were not governed by racial animus at all.

Is it of any import to you that the allegations of 50 + men and an outside investigator can be immediately outweighed by the denial of the man accused of racism?

Where were the demands of "100 percent proof" in the Trayvon Martin and Ahmed Arbury cases?  In both instances, suspicion, pursuit and ultimately lethal engagement of black men were explained by stating there had been prior burglaries in the area.  There was absolutely ZERO proof offered that Martin or Arbury were involved in any of the prior burglaries, much less that either were involved in burglaries the day they were killed.  Before you mention the videotape showing Arbery in the house, there was also video showing others who had been in the home who were not accused of burglary.  In addition, the owner of the house expressly asserted nothing was stolen from his property.

But unlike Doyle, they were deprived of their ability to disprove the accusations against them.  Nobody required the accusers there to provide "100 percent proof."  But even more damning, the penalty they paid for being the subject of unproven accusations was death.  Change the facts in both cases for a moment and assume they were accused of the burglaries, were not killed on the spot, had their days in court, and were even convicted of the things for which they were accused.  Burglary is not a capital offense in either Florida or Georgia.  Even if you threw in a battery charge against Martin, that would not be a capital offense.  A death penalty imposed in either case would be thrown out for violating the constitution's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.  Yet amazingly the vigil against unproven accusations was non existent.

So the propaganda about watered down racism charges...well....doesn't hold water.

---

When you live in a society where the term "racist" has been so watered down that most people roll their eyes at being accused of racism, they lose all credibility unless undeniable proof is given..

Innocent before proven guilty..

I wouldn't have cared either way if he was hired or not.. Show me solid proof of his racism and I'll rescind my judgement..

You're contradicting yourself.
If "most people roller their eyes" why does the accusation matter?
Why deny it, if people roll their eyes at the accusation?

Great point.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Social justice, the confederacy, racial prejudice, the court system. I'd say we're off topic for the Jag forum. Feel free to continue the topic in the political section.

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.