so basically he told black players he'll "send them back to glenville" or "sent them back to the streets"?  Did he tell the white players he'd send them back to the cornfields?   I do wonder if there is more regarding Doyle cuz what I've read so far seems pretty tame.  Sounds like a lot of general discontent from black players in the program though.  I'm sure it's a huge culture shock going to place like Iowa.

He was a hardass and he insulted and belittled the players he felt weren't working hard enough. By itself that just makes him a jerk but throwing in the racially tinted comments makes it intolerable.

Worse though is he apparently put 13 players in the hospital with his routine. That's not working players hard, that's indicative of someone who is downright dangerous.

That hardass routine works on college players but not in the NFL. As Austen Lane said on the radio yesterday, NFL locker rooms have a way of pushing back on personalities like Doyle's. 

It's over, though. Time to move on but I'm afraid Meyer has committed an unforgivable act in this day of woke. I have no doubt this brief hiring will be lodged against him by disgruntled players and SJWs at every available opportunity. 

Not a good way to start. Meyer better get acquainted to the optics of his job, and fast.

---

so basically he told black players he'll "send them back to glenville" or "sent them back to the streets"?  Did he tell the white players he'd send them back to the cornfields?   I do wonder if there is more regarding Doyle cuz what I've read so far seems pretty tame.  Sounds like a lot of general discontent from black players in the program though.  I'm sure it's a huge culture shock going to place like Iowa.

There were allegations of treating players differently...and holding them to different standards based on race.  In my research I saw one allegation of him stepping on the fingers of a black player about to lift weights.  I also saw that of the 50+ players to complain/allege, not all of them were black.  I do not know if that means the non black player(s) involved were corroborating their stories, or that they were victims themselves.

General discontent?  I would urge you to read the last link I provided in this thread...the tweet from the former Iowa player telling his side.  He made it a point to express aooreciation to UI.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

There is no forgiveness anymore and it makes us petty and weak. It is an indictment on the character of all involved.

---

The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Ramsey would of never made it at Iowa.  He would of cried himself to sleep every night

I'm sure that national championship he won at another school is consolation enough.

---

so basically he told black players he'll "send them back to glenville" or "sent them back to the streets"?  Did he tell the white players he'd send them back to the cornfields?   I do wonder if there is more regarding Doyle cuz what I've read so far seems pretty tame.  Sounds like a lot of general discontent from black players in the program though.  I'm sure it's a huge culture shock going to place like Iowa.

There were allegations of treating players differently...and holding them to different standards based on race.  In my research I saw one allegation of him stepping on the fingers of a black player about to lift weights.  I also saw that of the 50+ players to complain/allege, not all of them were black.  I do not know if that means the non black player(s) involved were corroborating their stories, or that they were victims themselves.

General discontent?  I would urge you to read the last link I provided in this thread...the tweet from the former Iowa player telling his side.  He made it a point to express aooreciation to UI.

We can't say for sure because obviously we were never there and only have a limited insight to what was happening, but I don't think he was overtly meaning to be racist. Like the one player said it was like walking on egg shells around him, so I kind of get the impression the guy just likes being and [BLEEP]. He seems like a guy that likes pushing peoples buttons because he enjoys getting a negative reaction from people.

I think if he had thought about the connotations of some of the things he said he wouldn't have said those particular things, but I also believe in those very same situations he would have said something different that wouldn't have the racial connotations that still would have achieved the same goal of offending someone and getting the negative reaction that he seems to think is amusing.

Like I said we weren't there, but I believe there are plenty of white players who were belittled, offended, and mistreated by him who won't come out and say anything because it might end up working in the favor of a guy who they think is a complete [BLEEP].

I think Doyle has the type of ego where he looks down on people indiscriminately. I just think he is aware that certain groups of people a sensitive to certain things and he was just playing on that to make it easier to get the negative reaction he seems to get off on.

I think he could get away with it so long because he was dealing with kids and they are more likely to just go with the flow not fully understanding what was wrong with the culture because they didn't know any better.

Either way, racist or just an [BLEEP], that type of bully personality will work in a locker room full of fully mature alpha males.

We saw how badly that can affect a locker room with Coughlin on separate occasions years apart

---

There is no forgiveness anymore and it makes us petty and weak.  It is an indictment on the character of all involved.

Where I come from, you have to publicly apologize before people publicly forgive you.
if you don't apologize, people might privately forgive you, but they'll still keep their distance from you.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Wow, almost like we hired a low character head coach with a history of overlooking things like this in his staff and players or something.

---

Wow, almost like we hired a low character head coach with a history of overlooking things like this in his staff and players or something.

Obsess much?

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

O'Doyle rules! And just like that...O'Doyle found the banana peel.

---

It seems to me there was a lot of smoke and more than likely the team heard something that hadn’t been covered by the media which would have really put the team and Meyer in a bad light.

I must admit, being British here I find it quite surprising people are defending him even from the comments that have been posted here, there is quite clearly a racial undertone and unacceptable in this day and age, I’m slightly surprised there’s any defence for it whatsoever.

For starters, it was an accusation. I’m not saying he didn’t make the comments, but we have no way of proving beyond a doubt that he was or is a racist person. He was let go from Iowa, but now basically now the crowd isn’t satisfied with that; the guy should never be allowed to get a job again based on an accusation, not an actual crime committed or charged, or documented audio or video of repugnant actions or vile insults ? 

Second, assuming he was guilty, we’ve basically told him and others who have ever made a racially charged comment or mistake in their past; the crowd gets to choose if you can be “reformed” or not or remorseful enough or not to get a second chance. And it’s downright arbitrary. Tyreek Hill can commit domestic violence against a pregnant woman, then break that same child’s arm, but consider “changed” enough (read: he’s too talented so it gets overlooked) to play ball. Antonio brown can be can accused of committing sexual misconduct and be embroiled in a court battle but sure, it’s ok to play in a super bowl. Ben Roethlisberger can be accused of rape but don’t worry about it. And don’t give the “players would maybe feel uncomfortable with the coach” excuse; how do we again give this man a chance to prove himself? And your telling me that players are ok playing or signing with franchise with players mentioned above that have committed or are accused of horrific crime(s) against children and women but someone made unprovable racial statements and they can’t fathom being under him as a coach? So if blacklisting is ok, who gets blacklisted and who doesn’t? And it goes both ways. Kaepernick made symbolic gestures and civil acts for something he felt was right and just and got blacklisted from the league.

What a weird world to live in

Here here, well said thank you i completely agree.

---

Has anyone seen a trustworthy account of account of Doyle's supposed words?  In today's environment it's important to have evidence, not merely accusation.

On the other hand, this is an unforced error on Urban's part.  He should have anticipated the blowback.  My concern is how it will impact players and free agents trusting Urban, not is some temporary hoopla from media hacks.

That's 100% not true. In today's environment just being accused of something is all it takes, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn't pay attention. Now I will agree that evidence is important and I don't think he should be getting the black ball UNLESS it's true, but where's the proof?

---

"Don't argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

On long post.. no Kaepernick is not blacklisted. He makes crazy money for not getting hit or failing on the football field. He would have a job if he really wanted to play.

---

The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

homebiscuit

       hb1148

       He was a hardass and he insulted and belittled the players he felt weren't working hard enough. By itself that just makes him a jerk but throwing in the racially tinted comments makes it intolerable.

       Worse though is he apparently put 13 players in the hospital with his routine. That's not working players hard, that's indicative of someone who is downright dangerous.

   That hardass routine works on college players but not in the NFL. As Austen Lane said on the radio yesterday, NFL locker rooms have a way of pushing back on personalities like Doyle's.

   It's over, though. Time to move on but I'm afraid Meyer has committed an unforgivable act in this day of woke. I have no doubt this brief hiring will be lodged against him by disgruntled players and SJWs at every available opportunity.


   Not a good way to start. Meyer better get acquainted to the optics of his job, and fast.

(emphasis provided)

I want everyone to note that when I posted this link I made no comment whatsoever on the hiring or the allegations at Iowa.  I could have posted commentary on it since the news of the hiring came out a few days ago when Meyer announced his complete coaching staff, but I didn't.  I did not post any commentary on the complete coaching staff generally, in part because you guys pretty much covered it.  When I posted this, I saw that nobody else started a thread on his resignation, and that was my purpose of posting this.  I only posted links to the allegations when I Am Yoda asked for credible links to the allegations.  So I don't want to hear anything about me having an agenda by posting this in light of my answers.

That said, the emphasized text is troublesome.

Why exactly is the hiring "unforgivable?"  Has Urban Meyer lost his job because of this hiring?

No.

Despite his prior assertions to the contrary, the vetting was not as thorough as he represented.  Meyer himself voluntarily acknowledged the thought process behind the hiring is less than ideal, saying "We are responsible for all aspects of our program and, in retrospect, should have given greater consideration to how his appointment may have affected all involved."  It's not as though we are living in the pre internet era.  The allegations were available to research for anyone so interested in learning about them.  Was that a mistake?  Yes.  Is that unforgivable on its face?  No.  But to suggest the only people who would have legitimate concern about this is some sort of disgruntled employee or SJW is wrong.

Suppose a free agent is considering Jacksonville as a possible landing spot.  The player has never played a down here, and has no reputation of being a malcontent elsewhere.  If he is given pause to sign here because of this, it doesn't change his backstory.  His desire to be treated with dignity, respect, and fairness by his employer and his reaction to something that may give indicia he won't be treated in such a manner does not, in itself, make him disgruntled or a SJW.

Also troubling is the tacit message that people subject to race based disparate treatment are somehow of flawed character for not being happy being treated inequitably, particularly on the basis of race.  I do not think it of ill character that one could find the use of racial stereotype in the chastisement of players repugnant.  As an ostensibly educated man working at an institution of higher learning who is tasked on some level for modeling appropriately professional behavior, he should be able to express corrective language without resorting to racial stereotype.

---

I think back to some of the things my coaches said to me back in the day and think...really? But it is a different time now and we need to recognize the hire was a bit tone deaf. We should also recognize the guy isn't on the staff anymore and we should move on.

No.. We must complain about it, to death, because we have no lives and none of us have made mistakes in our little lives.

So if the behavior alleged to have happened by over FIFTY (50) players is true, can it readily be construed as a
"mistake?"

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

There were allegations of treating players differently...and holding them to different standards based on race.  In my research I saw one allegation of him stepping on the fingers of a black player about to lift weights.  I also saw that of the 50+ players to complain/allege, not all of them were black.  I do not know if that means the non black player(s) involved were corroborating their stories, or that they were victims themselves.

General discontent?  I would urge you to read the last link I provided in this thread...the tweet from the former Iowa player telling his side.  He made it a point to express aooreciation to UI.

We can't say for sure because obviously we were never there and only have a limited insight to what was happening, but I don't think he was overtly meaning to be racist. Like the one player said it was like walking on egg shells around him, so I kind of get the impression the guy just likes being and [BLEEP]. He seems like a guy that likes pushing peoples buttons because he enjoys getting a negative reaction from people.

I think if he had thought about the connotations of some of the things he said he wouldn't have said those particular things, but I also believe in those very same situations he would have said something different that wouldn't have the racial connotations that still would have achieved the same goal of offending someone and getting the negative reaction that he seems to think is amusing.

Like I said we weren't there, but I believe there are plenty of white players who were belittled, offended, and mistreated by him who won't come out and say anything because it might end up working in the favor of a guy who they think is a complete [BLEEP].

I think Doyle has the type of ego where he looks down on people indiscriminately. I just think he is aware that certain groups of people a sensitive to certain things and he was just playing on that to make it easier to get the negative reaction he seems to get off on.

I think he could get away with it so long because he was dealing with kids and they are more likely to just go with the flow not fully understanding what was wrong with the culture because they didn't know any better.

Either way, racist or just an [BLEEP], that type of bully personality will work in a locker room full of fully mature  alpha males.

We saw how badly that can affect a locker room with Coughlin on separate occasions years apart

Conceptually we are in agreement.

What you have described is indicative of unconscious bias.  The oxymoronic phrase describes an attitude that may be without racist intent, but may have been shaped by larger societal racial influences.  Sometimes this will lead to "Disparate impact" racial discrimination, where there is no overt racial bias alleged, but the practice in question has a discriminatory effect.  Compare this to "Disparate treatment," where the behavior in question is expressly racially biased.

I think the concept of unconscious bias is part of the reason why issues of race are often so difficult reconcile.

That said, taking the allegations I have read at face value, I'm not sure Doyle's behavior falls within that spectrum of unconscious bias.  You could make the argument, as you have, that Doyle was somehow unaware of the racial significance of his statements.  To me, that claim is of dubious merit here.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Has anyone seen a trustworthy account of account of Doyle's supposed words?  In today's environment it's important to have evidence, not merely accusation.

On the other hand, this is an unforced error on Urban's part.  He should have anticipated the blowback.  My concern is how it will impact players and free agents trusting Urban, not is some temporary hoopla from media hacks.

That's 100% not true. In today's environment just being accused of something is all it takes, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn't pay attention. Now I will agree that evidence is important and I don't think he should be getting the black ball UNLESS it's true, but where's the proof?

The applicable case law strongly disagrees with you.

As to your closing question, what kind of proof do you expect?!?

To my knowledge, there has been no civil suit filed against Doyle on these matters.  If there were a civil suit filed, the standard the plaintiffs would have to meet is liability by a "preponderance of the evidence" which means unlike the criminal standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," all a civil plaintiff/group of plaintiffs would have to do is have as little as 50.1% of the evidence in their favor. Taking the facts as we know them, there are over FIFTY (50) players alleging various sorts of mistreatment and effectively two people denying it. 

Given the environment of a football locker room, it is doubtful Doyle would have reduced the racially tinged chastisements to writing.

But to be honest, there are those who would not accept any proof of racial discrimination as acceptable or persuasive.  There have been countless examples of this on these boards over my close to two decades here.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

homebiscuit

       hb1148

       He was a hardass and he insulted and belittled the players he felt weren't working hard enough. By itself that just makes him a jerk but throwing in the racially tinted comments makes it intolerable.

       Worse though is he apparently put 13 players in the hospital with his routine. That's not working players hard, that's indicative of someone who is downright dangerous.

   That hardass routine works on college players but not in the NFL. As Austen Lane said on the radio yesterday, NFL locker rooms have a way of pushing back on personalities like Doyle's.

   It's over, though. Time to move on but I'm afraid Meyer has committed an unforgivable act in this day of woke. I have no doubt this brief hiring will be lodged against him by disgruntled players and SJWs at every available opportunity.


   Not a good way to start. Meyer better get acquainted to the optics of his job, and fast.

(emphasis provided)

I want everyone to note that when I posted this link I made no comment whatsoever on the hiring or the allegations at Iowa.  I could have posted commentary on it since the news of the hiring came out a few days ago when Meyer announced his complete coaching staff, but I didn't.  I did not post any commentary on the complete coaching staff generally, in part because you guys pretty much covered it.  When I posted this, I saw that nobody else started a thread on his resignation, and that was my purpose of posting this.  I only posted links to the allegations when I Am Yoda asked for credible links to the allegations.  So I don't want to hear anything about me having an agenda by posting this in light of my answers.

That said, the emphasized text is troublesome.

Why exactly is the hiring "unforgivable?"  Has Urban Meyer lost his job because of this hiring?

No.

Despite his prior assertions to the contrary, the vetting was not as thorough as he represented.  Meyer himself voluntarily acknowledged the thought process behind the hiring is less than ideal, saying "We are responsible for all aspects of our program and, in retrospect, should have given greater consideration to how his appointment may have affected all involved."  It's not as though we are living in the pre internet era.  The allegations were available to research for anyone so interested in learning about them.  Was that a mistake?  Yes.  Is that unforgivable on its face?  No.  But to suggest the only people who would have legitimate concern about this is some sort of disgruntled employee or SJW is wrong.

Suppose a free agent is considering Jacksonville as a possible landing spot.  The player has never played a down here, and has no reputation of being a malcontent elsewhere.  If he is given pause to sign here because of this, it doesn't change his backstory.  His desire to be treated with dignity, respect, and fairness by his employer and his reaction to something that may give indicia he won't be treated in such a manner does not, in itself, make him disgruntled or a SJW.

Also troubling is the tacit message that people subject to race based disparate treatment are somehow of flawed character for not being happy being treated inequitably, particularly on the basis of race.  I do not think it of ill character that one could find the use of racial stereotype in the chastisement of players repugnant.  As an ostensibly educated man working at an institution of higher learning who is tasked on some level for modeling appropriately professional behavior, he should be able to express corrective language without resorting to racial stereotype.

---

No.. We must complain about it, to death, because we have no lives and none of us have made mistakes in our little lives.

So if the behavior alleged to have happened by over FIFTY (50) players is true, can it readily be construed as a
"mistake?"

I'm asking strictly for the sake of clarity: Are you saying that if a player chooses not to come here in the future it is because he has legitimate concern that he will be treated with bias because of the hiring and firing of Doyle?

---

homebiscuit

       hb1148

       He was a hardass and he insulted and belittled the players he felt weren't working hard enough. By itself that just makes him a jerk but throwing in the racially tinted comments makes it intolerable.

       Worse though is he apparently put 13 players in the hospital with his routine. That's not working players hard, that's indicative of someone who is downright dangerous.



(emphasis provided)

I want everyone to note that when I posted this link I made no comment whatsoever on the hiring or the allegations at Iowa.  I could have posted commentary on it since the news of the hiring came out a few days ago when Meyer announced his complete coaching staff, but I didn't.  I did not post any commentary on the complete coaching staff generally, in part because you guys pretty much covered it.  When I posted this, I saw that nobody else started a thread on his resignation, and that was my purpose of posting this.  I only posted links to the allegations when I Am Yoda asked for credible links to the allegations.  So I don't want to hear anything about me having an agenda by posting this in light of my answers.

That said, the emphasized text is troublesome.

Why exactly is the hiring "unforgivable?"  Has Urban Meyer lost his job because of this hiring?

No.

Despite his prior assertions to the contrary, the vetting was not as thorough as he represented.  Meyer himself voluntarily acknowledged the thought process behind the hiring is less than ideal, saying "We are responsible for all aspects of our program and, in retrospect, should have given greater consideration to how his appointment may have affected all involved."  It's not as though we are living in the pre internet era.  The allegations were available to research for anyone so interested in learning about them.  Was that a mistake?  Yes.  Is that unforgivable on its face?  No.  But to suggest the only people who would have legitimate concern about this is some sort of disgruntled employee or SJW is wrong.

Suppose a free agent is considering Jacksonville as a possible landing spot.  The player has never played a down here, and has no reputation of being a malcontent elsewhere.  If he is given pause to sign here because of this, it doesn't change his backstory.  His desire to be treated with dignity, respect, and fairness by his employer and his reaction to something that may give indicia he won't be treated in such a manner does not, in itself, make him disgruntled or a SJW.

Also troubling is the tacit message that people subject to race based disparate treatment are somehow of flawed character for not being happy being treated inequitably, particularly on the basis of race.  I do not think it of ill character that one could find the use of racial stereotype in the chastisement of players repugnant.  As an ostensibly educated man working at an institution of higher learning who is tasked on some level for modeling appropriately professional behavior, he should be able to express corrective language without resorting to racial stereotype.

---

So if the behavior alleged to have happened by over FIFTY (50) players is true, can it readily be construed as a
"mistake?"

I'm asking strictly for the sake of clarity: Are you saying that if a player chooses not to come here in the future it is because he has legitimate concern that he will be treated with bias because of the hiring and firing of Doyle?

My purpose in offering the hypothetical is NOT to assert the franchise would/should be perpetually culpable for any fears of discrimination.  It was designed to show that just because a person has concerns about possible discriminatory behavior does not make him "disgruntled" or a SJW. 

For the record, there are any number of reasons why a player in the future may decide not to come here, from scheme to location to contract to desire to win to opportunity to play, etc.    Considering Doyle was here for all of a day or two before he resigned, generally I think it'll be a brief blip on the radar and a minimal factor, if at all in most cases, especially over time.

But I do  not dismiss from the realm of possibility that a player could look at the Doyle hiring and think Meyer may not be overly concerned with the kinds of discrimination African-Americans might face and choose not to sign here, and that thought process might steer him away.  But that would have been far more likely a scenario had Doyle not tendered his resignation and been retained. 

If it happens at all, it would happen this year while the controversy is "fresh."

I hope that clarifies my position.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

That's 100% not true. In today's environment just being accused of something is all it takes, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn't pay attention. Now I will agree that evidence is important and I don't think he should be getting the black ball UNLESS it's true, but where's the proof?

The applicable  case law strongly disagrees with you.

As to your closing question, what kind of proof do you expect?!?

To my knowledge, there has been no civil suit filed against Doyle on these matters.  If there were a civil suit filed, the standard the plaintiffs would have to meet is liability by a "preponderance of the evidence" which means unlike the criminal standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," all a civil plaintiff/group of plaintiffs would have to do is have as little as 50.1% of the evidence in their favor. Taking the facts as we know them, there are over FIFTY (50) players alleging various sorts of mistreatment and effectively two people denying it. 

Given the environment of a football locker room, it is doubtful Doyle would have reduced the racially tinged chastisements to writing.

But to be honest, there are those who would not accept any proof of racial discrimination as acceptable or persuasive.  There have been countless examples of this on these boards over my close to two decades here.

This article states that Doyle and Ferentz are plaintiffs in a suit filed by 13 former players. I assume that is a civil suit, disconnected from the allegation that led to his dismissal. I wonder if there is anything more severe being withheld pending this litigation, as others have noted the ones who have come forward are not alleging anything earth-shattering, just a coach being a meathead with poor choice of words and motivational tactics.

I'm still glad he stepped down, he needs to get in at the ground level and build up trust before you give him a highly responsible position.

---

I've even waving the Meyer flag since before the hire, but this is a bad look.

How?

How can this happen???

WITH ALL THE S&C Coaches available...HOW THE [BLEEP] IS THIS GUY HIRED???

That's my concern. Is he Urban's relative, have they worked together? This hints at some type of nepotism or "good ol boys" network.

---

The applicable  case law strongly disagrees with you.

As to your closing question, what kind of proof do you expect?!?

To my knowledge, there has been no civil suit filed against Doyle on these matters.  If there were a civil suit filed, the standard the plaintiffs would have to meet is liability by a "preponderance of the evidence" which means unlike the criminal standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," all a civil plaintiff/group of plaintiffs would have to do is have as little as 50.1% of the evidence in their favor. Taking the facts as we know them, there are over FIFTY (50) players alleging various sorts of mistreatment and effectively two people denying it. 

Given the environment of a football locker room, it is doubtful Doyle would have reduced the racially tinged chastisements to writing.

But to be honest, there are those who would not accept any proof of racial discrimination as acceptable or persuasive.  There have been countless examples of this on these boards over my close to two decades here.

This article states that Doyle and Ferentz are plaintiffs in a suit filed by 13 former players. I assume that is a civil suit, disconnected from the allegation that led to his dismissal. I wonder if there is anything more severe being withheld pending this litigation, as others have noted the ones who have come forward are not alleging anything earth-shattering, just a coach being a meathead with poor choice of words and motivational tactics.

I'm still glad he stepped down, he needs to get in at the ground level and build up trust before you give him a highly responsible position.

Point of clarification:  if the 13 former players filed the suit against Doyle and Ferentz, Doyle and Ferents would likely be the defendants, not the plaintiffs.  If Ferentz and Doyle countersued, they would still be considered the original defendants.

As far as Doyle being a "meathead,"and using a poor choice of words, doing so frequently or habitually could lead to legal liability.

Note:  I read the same article, and missed the closing paragraph referencing the litigation by the 13 former players.  Without reading the complaint any possible supporting documents obtained through discovery, it seems there are at least 13 players who complained about racial discrimination, several others who have complained about it in some form who did not join the suit, and the outside investigation referenced.  While I do not know if it will ultimately be enough to overcome the rebuttable presumptions by the defendants to meet their standard of preponderance of the evidence, to say there is no proof whatsoever is disingenuous.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!