Every year, this board goes through the BAP vs needs debate in the effort to illustrate the best way to draft-or at least avoid draft mistakes.  Invariably, the discussion turns to how the most successful teams do things.  In those discussions, New England is often hailed as the model to emulate, and for good reason.  They've now been to more Super Bowls than any other team, and they have won six Super Bowls over the last two decades.

But they are far from perfect.

Belichick is notorious for being unable to successfully draft WRs.

This article may give us some insight as to why...at least in one instance.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...eal-harry/


According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

The Patriots are far from the only team where this dynamic of ignoring the scouts played out.  I can remember back in the 1980s, Dallas scouts recommended the team draft DL's Charles Mann and Bill Pickel, and Landry supposedly ignored them, too.  Mann and Pickel became two of the better DL of the 80s, while the Dallas DL continued its deterioration from dominant group to aging and decrepit until Jimmy Johnson was able to infuse talent into the unit in the 1990s.

At least during the free agency period, Meyer indicated the players they would pursue would be players he and his coaches had first hand knowledge about.  While the draft has a different dynamic in that none of the players have played in the league before, the dynamic also has its share of similarities due to Covid based restrictions on the combine, visits and workouts.  Meyer was a college coach as recently as three years ago and has been a college football analyst since then, he may be tempted to keep his own counsel when it comes to taking players this year, or rely more heavily on his relationships with coaches to sort the wheat from the chaff.

But I think completely disregarding the scouts' findings might be a mistake.

The scouts are a resource he should definitely utilize as he works to replenish the roster.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I think what may help Urban is the fact he has ties to just about everyone in college. So he can call up the Purdue coach and ask about Rondale Moore. He can call up Saban and ask about Barmore.

His connections run deep.

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Well thankfully and hopefully, Meyer sticks to his word about utilizing all of his coaches and scouts to make player assessments and drafting instead of him trying to control the roster with his own wishes and needs.

If he doesn't, that's how we could end up with an N'Keal Harry instead of an AJ Brown.. Egos definitely need to be put aside to help bring this club out of the basement. Lawrence is going to be a superb piece to build around.. Hope they take every advantage of it..

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I think what may help Urban is the fact he has ties to just about everyone in college. So he can call up the Purdue coach and ask about Rondale Moore. He can call up Saban and ask about Barmore.

His connections run deep.

Understood completely.

I'm not saying those relationships cannot be beneficial within these contexts, but the scouts have done the legwork.  They have watched practices and games.  They have developed the relationships with trainers, etc. 

Coaches ignore their scouts at their peril.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I think what may help Urban is the fact he has ties to just about everyone in college. So he can call up the Purdue coach and ask about Rondale Moore. He can call up Saban and ask about Barmore.

His connections run deep.

Understood completely.

I'm not saying those relationships cannot be beneficial within these contexts, but the scouts have done the legwork.  They have watched practices and games.  They have developed the relationships with trainers, etc. 

Coaches ignore their scouts at their peril.

Oh 100% agree. There has to be a balance there.

I read an article that says the 49ers scouts are trying to talk Shannahan out of Mac Jones.

These coaches and GMs have big egos and it’s sometimes hard to get them to sway their minds.

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It's a danger with "coach-centric" as described by Khan and the Jags when Meyer was hired. The scouting department is a valuable and expensive tool that should be consulted throughout the personnel acquisition process. I do believe Meyer does these "deep dives" into players as mentioned, not solely to call a coach with a relationship.

On a side note, Bill Belichick, in his 7 seasons as a head coach without Tom Brady on a team (5 in Cleveland and 2 in NE) is 48 wins and 64 losses, with 6 of the 7 seasons being a losing year. I know its an argument for another time and place, but I don't hold Belichick and the Pats organizationally in as high regard as I do Brady.

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Meyer is learning the ropes. Expect mistakes to be made, but he seems smart enough to learn from them. I’m sure we’ll see some doozies this year.

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Every method will have hits and misses. The professional scouts are definitely a great resource and shouldn't be completely disregarded, but close relationships throughout the college ranks will is really also part of scouting as well.

The biggest thing the Belicheck-Harry situation seemed to show was overvaluing the ceiling based on his personal connections instead of mapping out the likelihood of all possibly outcomes. If the current FO/UM cannot navigate that, they will fail.

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Every year, this board goes through the BAP vs needs debate in the effort to illustrate the best way to draft-or at least avoid draft mistakes.  Invariably, the discussion turns to how the most successful teams do things.  In those discussions, New England is often hailed as the model to emulate, and for good reason.  They've now been to more Super Bowls than any other team, and they have won six Super Bowls over the last two decades.

But they are far from perfect.

Belichick is notorious for being unable to successfully draft WRs.

This article may give us some insight as to why...at least in one instance.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...eal-harry/


According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

The Patriots are far from the only team where this dynamic of ignoring the scouts played out.  I can remember back in the 1980s, Dallas scouts recommended the team draft DL's Charles Mann and Bill Pickel, and Landry supposedly ignored them, too.  Mann and Pickel became two of the better DL of the 80s, while the Dallas DL continued its deterioration from dominant group to aging and decrepit until Jimmy Johnson was able to infuse talent into the unit in the 1990s.

At least during the free agency period, Meyer indicated the players they would pursue would be players he and his coaches had first hand knowledge about.  While the draft has a different dynamic in that none of the players have played in the league before, the dynamic also has its share of similarities due to Covid based restrictions on the combine, visits and workouts.  Meyer was a college coach as recently as three years ago and has been a college football analyst since then, he may be tempted to keep his own counsel when it comes to taking players this year, or rely more heavily on his relationships with coaches to sort the wheat from the chaff.

But I think completely disregarding the scouts' findings might be a mistake.

The scouts are a resource he should definitely utilize as he works to replenish the roster.

Having Tom Brady for your quarterback has more to do with the Pats success then Belichicks drafting.  Without and elite QB you can't draft your way to a super bowl. There is always the exception but for the most part that is the rule.

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According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

Steelers passing on hometown hero Dan Marino was a disaster -- could have gone from Bradshaw to Marino; imagine that.

Speaking of the Dolphins, remember when they drafted Ted Ginn at #9 and immediately stated they were great friends with the Ginn family and wanted a person with his strong character.  

Gene Smith must have only had connections to FBS schools.

---

Every method will have hits and misses. The professional scouts are definitely a great resource and shouldn't be completely disregarded, but close relationships throughout the college ranks will is really also part of scouting as well.

The biggest thing the Belicheck-Harry situation seemed to show was overvaluing the ceiling based on his personal connections instead of mapping out the likelihood of all possibly outcomes. If the current FO/UM cannot navigate that, they will fail.

Obviously teams should try to acquire as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision.  If there's a character question for the player, a close relationship with the coach might provide good insight.  However, in general, I wouldn't put too much into the coach's assessment.  I think many coaches are going to pump up their own player.  Even if they think they are being honest, they probably see the player through rose colored glasses.  For me, I would rely on game film and my scout's assessments to do most of the talking.

---

It's a danger with "coach-centric" as described by Khan and the Jags when Meyer was hired.  The scouting department is a valuable and expensive tool that should be consulted throughout the personnel acquisition process.  I do believe Meyer does these "deep dives" into players as mentioned, not solely to call a coach with a relationship.

On a side note, Bill Belichick, in his 7 seasons as a head coach without Tom Brady on a team (5 in Cleveland and 2 in NE) is 48 wins and 64 losses, with 6 of the 7 seasons being a losing year.  I know its an argument for another time and place, but I don't hold Belichick and the Pats organizationally in as high regard as I do Brady.

Exactly.

Bill ain’t diddly. He’s like every other run of the mill head coach. Cleveland didn’t even want him.

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Understood completely.

I'm not saying those relationships cannot be beneficial within these contexts, but the scouts have done the legwork.  They have watched practices and games.  They have developed the relationships with trainers, etc. 

Coaches ignore their scouts at their peril.

Oh 100% agree. There has to be a balance there.

I read an article that says the 49ers scouts are trying to talk Shannahan out of Mac Jones.

These coaches and GMs have big egos and it’s sometimes hard to get them to sway their minds.

I'm still looking for an article I read a few years ago, detailing how coaches often don't respect scouts because some of them didn't play the game at any high level.  I hope Meyer doesn't fall into that.  I hope he and Ballke and the scouting department all work together well.  This organization needs everyone to be on the same page...and everyone to be right.

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It's a danger with "coach-centric" as described by Khan and the Jags when Meyer was hired.  The scouting department is a valuable and expensive tool that should be consulted throughout the personnel acquisition process.  I do believe Meyer does these "deep dives" into players as mentioned, not solely to call a coach with a relationship.

On a side note, Bill Belichick, in his 7 seasons as a head coach without Tom Brady on a team (5 in Cleveland and 2 in NE) is 48 wins and 64 losses, with 6 of the 7 seasons being a losing year.  I know its an argument for another time and place, but I don't hold Belichick and the Pats organizationally in as high regard as I do Brady.

Well, I think we'll get a better grasp of how they will work together once this Covid crap gets under control and society and the NFL routine returns to normal.

As for Belichick, there is certainly an argument to be made on either side of that debate.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I bet Gene Smith ignored the scouts when he drafted a punter in the third round.

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Meyer is learning the ropes. Expect mistakes to be made, but he seems smart enough to learn from them. I’m sure we’ll see some doozies this year.

I'm sure many people will see at least some of UM's picks as "doozies."

I just hope like hell the doozie seers are wrong.

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Every method will have hits and misses. The professional scouts are definitely a great resource and shouldn't be completely disregarded, but close relationships throughout the college ranks will is really also part of scouting as well.

The biggest thing the Belicheck-Harry situation seemed to show was overvaluing the ceiling based on his personal connections instead of mapping out the likelihood of all possibly outcomes. If the current FO/UM cannot navigate that, they will fail.

I would say the advantage that UM has over Belichick in this regard is as a coach and analyst over the past few years, he has seen these players far more than Belichick has.

NFL coaches really don't get to see these players at all until after the season at the earliest.  For guys like Belichick, it's worse because they are in the playoffs all the time.  Meyer has been exposed to these players all season long for years, whether it's coaching his own players, studying the film on opposing players, or studying the film as an analyst.

I think the longer Meyer is in the NFL, the less he'll be able to rely upon his coaching and TV experiences in terms of college player evaluation.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Every year, this board goes through the BAP vs needs debate in the effort to illustrate the best way to draft-or at least avoid draft mistakes.  Invariably, the discussion turns to how the most successful teams do things.  In those discussions, New England is often hailed as the model to emulate, and for good reason.  They've now been to more Super Bowls than any other team, and they have won six Super Bowls over the last two decades.

But they are far from perfect.

Belichick is notorious for being unable to successfully draft WRs.

This article may give us some insight as to why...at least in one instance.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...eal-harry/


According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

The Patriots are far from the only team where this dynamic of ignoring the scouts played out.  I can remember back in the 1980s, Dallas scouts recommended the team draft DL's Charles Mann and Bill Pickel, and Landry supposedly ignored them, too.  Mann and Pickel became two of the better DL of the 80s, while the Dallas DL continued its deterioration from dominant group to aging and decrepit until Jimmy Johnson was able to infuse talent into the unit in the 1990s.

At least during the free agency period, Meyer indicated the players they would pursue would be players he and his coaches had first hand knowledge about.  While the draft has a different dynamic in that none of the players have played in the league before, the dynamic also has its share of similarities due to Covid based restrictions on the combine, visits and workouts.  Meyer was a college coach as recently as three years ago and has been a college football analyst since then, he may be tempted to keep his own counsel when it comes to taking players this year, or rely more heavily on his relationships with coaches to sort the wheat from the chaff.

But I think completely disregarding the scouts' findings might be a mistake.

The scouts are a resource he should definitely utilize as he works to replenish the roster.

Having Tom Brady for your quarterback has more to do with the Pats success then Belichicks drafting.  Without and elite QB you can't draft your way to a super bowl. There is always the exception but for the most part that is the rule.

Having a QB certainly helps matters, but you could make the argument the Patriots started drafting well before Brady was established as the GOAT.  That 2001 draft was good for them, brniging them Richard Seymour and Matt Light.  Still, I'm glad they have fallen off.  They have ended our seasons too many times.

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According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

Steelers passing on hometown hero Dan Marino was a disaster -- could have gone from Bradshaw to Marino; imagine that.

Speaking of the Dolphins, remember when they drafted Ted Ginn at #9 and immediately stated they were great friends with the Ginn family and wanted a person with his strong character.  

Gene Smith must have only had connections to FBS schools.

Yes.  Lots of people regret passing on Marino that year.

But the Steelers passing on Marino that year helped color my approach to drafting QBs.  If you have a thirty something year old QB-even if he's a Pro Bowler-and you have the chance to to draft a guy you think is a franchise signal caller, you don't eschew him for an immediate impact player.  You take the QB.  They would have benefitted far more long term from Marino that they would have Senor Sack, had Rivera stayed healthy.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I bet Gene Smith ignored the scouts when he drafted a punter in the third round.

I think Gene Smith was using the force-or was seduced by the dark side of the force-in picking his players.

---

Every method will have hits and misses. The professional scouts are definitely a great resource and shouldn't be completely disregarded, but close relationships throughout the college ranks will is really also part of scouting as well.

The biggest thing the Belicheck-Harry situation seemed to show was overvaluing the ceiling based on his personal connections instead of mapping out the likelihood of all possibly outcomes. If the current FO/UM cannot navigate that, they will fail.

Obviously teams should try to acquire as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision.  If there's a character question for the player, a close relationship with the coach might provide good insight.  However, in general, I wouldn't put too much into the coach's assessment.  I think many coaches are going to pump up their own player.  Even if they think they are being honest, they probably see the player through rose colored glasses.  For me, I would rely on game film and my scout's assessments to do most of the talking.

I think it would depend on the coach and how strong my relationship with him is.

If it's a guy that Meyer knows well and is close with, then he should give his opinion more weight than he would with a guy he barely knows.

Still, I agree game film and scouting assesments should govern his decisions, especially as he gets further away from his college experiences.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I bet Gene Smith ignored the scouts when he drafted a punter in the third round.

.... and passing on Russell Wilson to draft Bryan Anger 


This was a good draft below -- lol.  Definitely not BAP (4 defensive linemen and 2 kick returners) ...... 1 player from a Big 5 Conference and that was mediocre Cal.

Jacksonville Jaguars 2010 Draft Class
1 - 10 - DT - Tyson Alualu - California
3 - 74 - DT -  D'Anthony Smith - Louisiana Tech
5a -  143 - DE - Larry Hart - Central Arkansas
5b* - 153 - DE - Austen Lane - Murray State
6a - 180 - RB/KR - Deji Karim - Southern Illinois
6b* - 203 - RS/CB - Scotty McGee - James Madison

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According to the article, Belichick ignored the scouts' recommendations as it pertained to available WRs in the 2019 draft.  The scouts were pushing for Deebo Samuel and A.J. Brown.  Belichick took N'Keal Harry, in part because of his relationship with Harry''s coach and a non workout visit.  In fairness, teams rely upon these relationships all the time.  Shula relied in a relationship with Pitt's coach in deciding to draft Marino in the 1983 draft when rumors or drug use ran rampant and caused him to drop.

Steelers passing on hometown hero Dan Marino was a disaster -- could have gone from Bradshaw to Marino; imagine that.

Speaking of the Dolphins, remember when they drafted Ted Ginn at #9 and immediately stated they were great friends with the Ginn family and wanted a person with his strong character.  

Gene Smith must have only had connections to FBS schools.

Go to Youtube and watch "The Brady Six" about the 6 QBs who were drafted before Tom Brady.  It's an eye-opener.  To watch Bill Walsh go in front of cameras and tout the qualities of Giovanni Carmazzi...  And every one of the Pats picks other than Brady was a bust.  These are hall of fame coaches and the NFL's greatest front offices, and it just goes to show, no one really knows how these guys are going to turn out.

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Every method will have hits and misses. The professional scouts are definitely a great resource and shouldn't be completely disregarded, but close relationships throughout the college ranks will is really also part of scouting as well.

The biggest thing the Belicheck-Harry situation seemed to show was overvaluing the ceiling based on his personal connections instead of mapping out the likelihood of all possibly outcomes. If the current FO/UM cannot navigate that, they will fail.

Obviously teams should try to acquire as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision.  If there's a character question for the player, a close relationship with the coach might provide good insight.  However, in general, I wouldn't put too much into the coach's assessment.  I think many coaches are going to pump up their own player.  Even if they think they are being honest, they probably see the player through rose colored glasses.  For me, I would rely on game film and my scout's assessments to do most of the talking.

I bet Gene Smith ignored the scouts when he drafted a punter in the third round.

I think Gene Smith was using the force-or was seduced by the dark side of the force-in picking his players.

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Obviously teams should try to acquire as much information as possible in order to make an informed decision.  If there's a character question for the player, a close relationship with the coach might provide good insight.  However, in general, I wouldn't put too much into the coach's assessment.  I think many coaches are going to pump up their own player.  Even if they think they are being honest, they probably see the player through rose colored glasses.  For me, I would rely on game film and my scout's assessments to do most of the talking.

I think it would depend on the coach and how strong my relationship with him is.

If it's a guy that Meyer knows well and is close with, then he should give his opinion more weight than he would with a guy he barely knows.

Still, I agree game film and scouting assesments should govern his decisions, especially as he gets further away from his college experiences.

I think y'all are missing my point. Part of scouting IS  assessing a players character, how much they love game, whether they have major personality red flags, if they are truly a football nut, etc. And good scouts get that information from coaches, trainers, water boys, the waitress as the players favorite hang out, whomever.

I'm sure there will be times where the information that Meyer (or other HCs) gets and the Scouts get contradicts, but I would guess most often they line up. The issue would be if Meyer always overrules the scouts in those situations. Given how much has seemed to value his staffs input already and how much a point Shad and the FO talked about the coaches, scouts and personnel departments working together over the past year, I have hope that will not be the case.

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