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enigma · 10-18-2021, 12:29 AM

If KT is gone and we are picking 3rd overall, as it stands after week 6, I'm going with Stingley Jr and not looking back.

He's far and away the MOST talented corner in this upcoming class and the only other ELITE player other than Thibodeaux despite him missing some games.

If he's not available either, then Kenyon Green from Texas A&M is who I would target as I believe he is quite possibly the most dominant offensive lineman in CFB.

TheO-LineMatters · 10-18-2021, 05:39 AM

(10-17-2021, 11:10 PM)wg171 Wrote: If KT is gone and no trade partner can be found who is your pick??

There are always trades to be had. We just make it abundantly clear to all 31 other teams, before the draft, that we are willing to listen to any and all offers. Personally, I could give a crap less about the NFL's trade value chart. If I don't see any single player worth staying at the pick I'm in, (which if the Bills win tonight, we'd be #2), then I'm trading out of that selection to the highest bidder, no matter if the NFL trade value chart says it's a good deal or not. If I see players of equal or better value later in the draft and I can add extra picks by trading down, it would be dumb to stay where I'm at and take a player that I don't believe in 100%.

I'll give an example. In 2017 we had the #4 pick. I desperately wanted to trade down. I don't believe in ever taking a RB in round 1. A RB is only as good as his O-Line is at blocking. I saw absolutely no value what so ever at taking a RB with the #4 pick, especially given the state of the O-Line. The player I targeted was Ryan Ramczyk who was supposed to be selected much later in the first round. He ended up being taken #32 overall by the Saints. Conventional wisdom says if you trade down in round 1, you don't wanna trade down any further than a certain point in that round, but I say that's stupid. If I don't see any elite players in that draft, (which at the time I didn't) then who cares how far I trade down? By not allowing ourselves to trade down that far, we missed a great opportunity. We ended up selecting Fournette, who did nothing and Ramczyk ended up being a 3 time All-Pro NFL OT.

Personally, I see Thibodeaux as the only elite, sure-fire player currently in this draft. If he's gone, I'd rather have multiple picks where I can draft several really good players, rather than to stay put and take one very good player that is of equal value to what I could find later in the draft. You try to get the best deal you can before the draft, but if the deals aren't coming, you wait until right before the draft and you make it abundantly clear that you have no parameters to any offer that is made. You're willing to consider any offer. If you do this, you will have other teams, (especially the QB needy teams) that will make offers. It may not be giant deals of the past where you get a kings ransom, but who cares? If the value isn't there for you, take the best offer.

I also would not be opposed to flipping that pick for a veteran OT. For instance if there is the possibility that we could use the #2, #3 pick or whatever we end up with as part of a deal to land a young, gifted OT like Laremy Tunsil, I'd do that in a heartbeat. This team needs an influx of talent at multiple positions. I'm not gonna put any constraints on how we are able to improve this team. It just has to get done one way or another. I'm open to anything.

flgatorsandjags · 10-18-2021, 06:38 AM

(10-18-2021, 05:39 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 11:10 PM)wg171 Wrote: If KT is gone and no trade partner can be found who is your pick??

There are always trades to be had. We just make it abundantly clear to all 31 other teams, before the draft, that we are willing to listen to any and all offers. Personally, I could give a crap less about the NFL's trade value chart. If I don't see any single player worth staying at the pick I'm in, (which if the Bills win tonight, we'd be #2), then I'm trading out of that selection to the highest bidder, no matter if the NFL trade value chart says it's a good deal or not. If I see players of equal or better value later in the draft and I can add extra picks by trading down, it would be dumb to stay where I'm at and take a player that I don't believe in 100%.

I'll give an example. In 2017 we had the #4 pick. I desperately wanted to trade down. I don't believe in ever taking a RB in round 1. A RB is only as good as his O-Line is at blocking. I saw absolutely no value what so ever at taking a RB with the #4 pick, especially given the state of the O-Line. The player I targeted was Ryan Ramczyk who was supposed to be selected much later in the first round. He ended up being taken #32 overall by the Saints. Conventional wisdom says if you trade down in round 1, you don't wanna trade down any further than a certain point in that round, but I say that's stupid. If I don't see any elite players in that draft, (which at the time I didn't) then who cares how far I trade down? By not allowing ourselves to trade down that far, we missed a great opportunity. We ended up selecting Fournette, who did nothing and Ramczyk ended up being a 3 time All-Pro NFL OT.

Personally, I see Thibodeaux as the only elite, sure-fire player currently in this draft. If he's gone, I'd rather have multiple picks where I can draft several really good players, rather than to stay put and take one very good player that is of equal value to what I could find later in the draft. You try to get the best deal you can before the draft, but if the deals aren't coming, you wait until right before the draft and you make it abundantly clear that you have no parameters to any offer that is made. You're willing to consider any offer. If you do this, you will have other teams, (especially the QB needy teams) that will make offers. It may not be giant deals of the past where you get a kings ransom, but who cares? If the value isn't there for you, take the best offer.

I also would not be opposed to flipping that pick for a veteran OT. For instance if there is the possibility that we could use the #2, #3 pick or whatever we end up with as part of a deal to land a young, gifted OT like Laremy Tunsil, I'd do that in a heartbeat. This team needs an influx of talent at multiple positions. I'm not gonna put any constraints on how we are able to improve this team. It just has to get done one way or another. I'm open to anything.

Hindsight 20/20. What if you would of traded down to say 20 and Ramczyk goes a couple picks before who do you then take? You might want to re look at your scouting department if they have that many players with the same grade. If we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil who will be 28 next season, the contract, injury history, and also who's play has declined a bit Urb should be fired on the spot especially when we have Little waiting in the wings. I'd rather tag Cam one more year than give up a top 3 pick

TheO-LineMatters · 10-18-2021, 07:03 AM

(10-18-2021, 06:38 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 05:39 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: There are always trades to be had. We just make it abundantly clear to all 31 other teams, before the draft, that we are willing to listen to any and all offers. Personally, I could give a crap less about the NFL's trade value chart. If I don't see any single player worth staying at the pick I'm in, (which if the Bills win tonight, we'd be #2), then I'm trading out of that selection to the highest bidder, no matter if the NFL trade value chart says it's a good deal or not. If I see players of equal or better value later in the draft and I can add extra picks by trading down, it would be dumb to stay where I'm at and take a player that I don't believe in 100%.

I'll give an example. In 2017 we had the #4 pick. I desperately wanted to trade down. I don't believe in ever taking a RB in round 1. A RB is only as good as his O-Line is at blocking. I saw absolutely no value what so ever at taking a RB with the #4 pick, especially given the state of the O-Line. The player I targeted was Ryan Ramczyk who was supposed to be selected much later in the first round. He ended up being taken #32 overall by the Saints. Conventional wisdom says if you trade down in round 1, you don't wanna trade down any further than a certain point in that round, but I say that's stupid. If I don't see any elite players in that draft, (which at the time I didn't) then who cares how far I trade down? By not allowing ourselves to trade down that far, we missed a great opportunity. We ended up selecting Fournette, who did nothing and Ramczyk ended up being a 3 time All-Pro NFL OT.

Personally, I see Thibodeaux as the only elite, sure-fire player currently in this draft. If he's gone, I'd rather have multiple picks where I can draft several really good players, rather than to stay put and take one very good player that is of equal value to what I could find later in the draft. You try to get the best deal you can before the draft, but if the deals aren't coming, you wait until right before the draft and you make it abundantly clear that you have no parameters to any offer that is made. You're willing to consider any offer. If you do this, you will have other teams, (especially the QB needy teams) that will make offers. It may not be giant deals of the past where you get a kings ransom, but who cares? If the value isn't there for you, take the best offer.

I also would not be opposed to flipping that pick for a veteran OT. For instance if there is the possibility that we could use the #2, #3 pick or whatever we end up with as part of a deal to land a young, gifted OT like Laremy Tunsil, I'd do that in a heartbeat. This team needs an influx of talent at multiple positions. I'm not gonna put any constraints on how we are able to improve this team. It just has to get done one way or another. I'm open to anything.

Hindsight 20/20. What if you would of traded down to say 20 and Ramczyk goes a couple picks before who do you then take? You might want to re look at your scouting department if they have that many players with the same grade. If we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil who will be 28 next season, the contract, injury history, and also who's play has declined a bit Urb should be fired on the spot especially when we have Little waiting in the wings. I'd rather tag Cam one more year than give up a top 3 pick

Looking back on my 2017 draft list, if Ramczyk wasn't there, I would have chosen CB Tre'Davious White. He was the next guy up on my list that was left on the board at that time.

Not necessarily. It depends. Some drafts are better than others. Last year was a draft with much more elite players at the top end. They stood head and shoulders above the rest. This year, there just isn't those type of players, IMO. There's just one guy. Some draft classes are just better than others and you grade accordingly. It varies from year to year. Most scouts realize this.

Tunsil is still one of the best, young Tackles in the NFL. Yes, he has been beat around lately, but look at the team he is on. He's the one good piece in that offense. He's getting no help, so no wonder he gets injured. Given that Robinson is an UFA, Taylor just flat out sucks and I have no faith in Little, I'd definitely trade for Tunsil. Little has shown me nothing that proves he can be a franchise LT. I hope he does turn into one, but if he can't even supplant Taylor at RT (when Taylor has such a low bar), why should I believe he could be trusted holding down the LT spot? I'd rather flip the pick for a proven commodity. Ideally, we wouldn't have to though. In an ideal world, we would sign Terron Armstead in free agency, but given our current status, I find it almost impossible to believe that any premier UFA would wanna come here. As for Cam Robinson, there is absolutely no scenario where I would re-sign him, ever.

flgatorsandjags · 10-18-2021, 08:46 AM

(10-18-2021, 07:03 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 06:38 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Hindsight 20/20. What if you would of traded down to say 20 and Ramczyk goes a couple picks before who do you then take? You might want to re look at your scouting department if they have that many players with the same grade. If we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil who will be 28 next season, the contract, injury history, and also who's play has declined a bit Urb should be fired on the spot especially when we have Little waiting in the wings. I'd rather tag Cam one more year than give up a top 3 pick

Looking back on my 2017 draft list, if Ramczyk wasn't there, I would have chosen CB Tre'Davious White. He was the next guy up on my list that was left on the board at that time.

Not necessarily. It depends. Some drafts are better than others. Last year was a draft with much more elite players at the top end. They stood head and shoulders above the rest. This year, there just isn't those type of players, IMO. There's just one guy. Some draft classes are just better than others and you grade accordingly. It varies from year to year. Most scouts realize this.

Tunsil is still one of the best, young Tackles in the NFL. Yes, he has been beat around lately, but look at the team he is on. He's the one good piece in that offense. He's getting no help, so no wonder he gets injured. Given that Robinson is an UFA, Taylor just flat out sucks and I have no faith in Little, I'd definitely trade for Tunsil. Little has shown me nothing that proves he can be a franchise LT. I hope he does turn into one, but if he can't even supplant Taylor at RT (when Taylor has such a low bar), why should I believe he could be trusted holding down the LT spot? I'd rather flip the pick for a proven commodity. Ideally, we wouldn't have to though. In an ideal world, we would sign Terron Armstead in free agency, but given our current status, I find it almost impossible to believe that any premier UFA would wanna come here. As for Cam Robinson, there is absolutely no scenario where I would re-sign him, ever.

Yes some drafts are better than others but you still might want to re look at your scouting department if you have that many player graded the same to just take any offer on the table. Thibs is the best but there are a few more elite players at the top of this draft, id be ok with a trade back but it better be for nice compensation, I'm not just trading back just to trade back for anything. No chance do we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil

TheO-LineMatters · 10-18-2021, 09:32 AM

(10-18-2021, 08:46 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 07:03 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: Looking back on my 2017 draft list, if Ramczyk wasn't there, I would have chosen CB Tre'Davious White. He was the next guy up on my list that was left on the board at that time.

Not necessarily. It depends. Some drafts are better than others. Last year was a draft with much more elite players at the top end. They stood head and shoulders above the rest. This year, there just isn't those type of players, IMO. There's just one guy. Some draft classes are just better than others and you grade accordingly. It varies from year to year. Most scouts realize this.

Tunsil is still one of the best, young Tackles in the NFL. Yes, he has been beat around lately, but look at the team he is on. He's the one good piece in that offense. He's getting no help, so no wonder he gets injured. Given that Robinson is an UFA, Taylor just flat out sucks and I have no faith in Little, I'd definitely trade for Tunsil. Little has shown me nothing that proves he can be a franchise LT. I hope he does turn into one, but if he can't even supplant Taylor at RT (when Taylor has such a low bar), why should I believe he could be trusted holding down the LT spot? I'd rather flip the pick for a proven commodity. Ideally, we wouldn't have to though. In an ideal world, we would sign Terron Armstead in free agency, but given our current status, I find it almost impossible to believe that any premier UFA would wanna come here. As for Cam Robinson, there is absolutely no scenario where I would re-sign him, ever.
Yes some drafts are better than others but you still might want to re look at your scouting department if you have that many player graded the same to just take any offer on the table. Thibs is the best but there are a few more elite players at the top of this draft, id be ok with a trade back but it better be for nice compensation, I'm not just trading back just to trade back for anything. No chance do we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil

I just don't see it.

Hopefully, it wouldn't cost this much, but when you have a QB like Trevor Lawrence, you should be willing to do anything it takes to protect him.

enigma · 10-18-2021, 05:39 PM

(10-18-2021, 08:46 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Yes some drafts are better than others but you still might want to re look at your scouting department if you have that many player graded the same to just take any offer on the table. Thibs is the best but there are a few more elite players at the top of this draft, id be ok with a trade back but it better be for nice compensation, I'm not just trading back just to trade back for anything. No chance do we give up a top 3 pick for Tunsil

Exactly.

Don't trade back just to trade back for some mid-level players if we have the opportunity to draft a player like Thibodeaux or Stingley. And there is certainly no way in hell I'm giving up a top 3 pick for Laremy Tunsil...

flgatorsandjags · 10-18-2021, 06:11 PM

I'm starting to think George Karlaftis could be in play as well for our 5 tech. Could play the roll of a JJ Watt and bring a much need pass rush to the dline

jessepeck1213 · 10-19-2021, 05:55 PM

Trading a top 5 pick for laremy tunsil does sound like a jaguars thing to do.

TheO-LineMatters · 10-19-2021, 07:18 PM

(10-19-2021, 05:55 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: Trading a top 5 pick for laremy tunsil does sound like a jaguars thing to do.

We're certainly not gonna find an OT of Tunsil's caliber in this next draft class. It sucks.

flgatorsandjags · 10-19-2021, 07:41 PM

(10-19-2021, 07:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 05:55 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: Trading a top 5 pick for laremy tunsil does sound like a jaguars thing to do.

We're certainly not gonna find an OT of Tunsil's caliber in this next draft class. It sucks.

We might have one on the roster. Little>>>Eichenberg

TheO-LineMatters · 10-19-2021, 08:50 PM

(10-19-2021, 07:41 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 07:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: We're certainly not gonna find an OT of Tunsil's caliber in this next draft class. It sucks.

We might have one on the roster. Little>>>Eichenberg

He can't even beat out Taylor for the starting RT job.

Kane · 10-20-2021, 04:33 PM

(10-19-2021, 08:50 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 07:41 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: We might have one on the roster. Little>>>Eichenberg

He can't even beat out Taylor for the starting RT job.

He's a LT not a RT (even though at this point I'd put him or anyone there over Taylor) but also, do you trust Meyers opinion really?

TheO-LineMatters · 10-21-2021, 12:59 AM

(10-20-2021, 04:33 PM)Kane Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 08:50 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: He can't even beat out Taylor for the starting RT job.

He's a LT not a RT (even though at this point I'd put him or anyone there over Taylor) but also, do you trust Meyers opinion really?

That's not the way the NFL works. You select an OT and see where you fit them in on your O-Line. Penei Sewell was a LT at Oregon and now he's a RT for the Lions. Jedrick Wills was a RT at Alabama and now he is Cleveland's starting LT. Ben Bartch was a LT at St. John's and now he is playing RG for us. La'el Collins was a LT at LSU before becoming the Cowboys starting RT. Dalton Risner was a RT for Kansas State and he's now the Broncos starting LG. The list goes on and on. When you take the best OT on the board, you play them where you need them the most. In our case, that is definitely RT. A good coach at any level knows this. Judging by his play of the last couple of games, Jawaan Taylor has been terrible. If Little is not even being considered to replace him, that tells me he's either not ready or something is really wrong and just like I though all along, he was the wrong selection. If he was even halfway decent, he should be starting in place of Taylor.

HolsterHusto · 10-21-2021, 09:08 AM

(10-21-2021, 12:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-20-2021, 04:33 PM)Kane Wrote: He's a LT not a RT (even though at this point I'd put him or anyone there over Taylor) but also, do you trust Meyers opinion really?

That's not the way the NFL works. You select an OT and see where you fit them in on your O-Line. Penei Sewell was a LT at Oregon and now he's a RT for the Lions. Jedrick Wills was a RT at Alabama and now he is Cleveland's starting LT. Ben Bartch was a LT at St. John's and now he is playing RG for us. La'el Collins was a LT at LSU before becoming the Cowboys starting RT. Dalton Risner was a RT for Kansas State and he's now the Broncos starting LG. The list goes on and on. When you take the best OT on the board, you play them where you need them the most. In our case, that is definitely RT. A good coach at any level knows this. Judging by his play of the last couple of games, Jawaan Taylor has been terrible. If Little is not even being considered to replace him, that tells me he's either not ready or something is really wrong and just like I though all along, he was the wrong selection. If he was even halfway decent, he should be starting in place of Taylor.

Penei is a bad example here. He started the season at RT and struggled mightily. Once Decker went down, Sewell slide back to his natural LT spot and looked amazing.

TheO-LineMatters · 10-21-2021, 09:25 AM

(10-21-2021, 09:08 AM)HolsterHusto Wrote:
(10-21-2021, 12:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: That's not the way the NFL works. You select an OT and see where you fit them in on your O-Line. Penei Sewell was a LT at Oregon and now he's a RT for the Lions. Jedrick Wills was a RT at Alabama and now he is Cleveland's starting LT. Ben Bartch was a LT at St. John's and now he is playing RG for us. La'el Collins was a LT at LSU before becoming the Cowboys starting RT. Dalton Risner was a RT for Kansas State and he's now the Broncos starting LG. The list goes on and on. When you take the best OT on the board, you play them where you need them the most. In our case, that is definitely RT. A good coach at any level knows this. Judging by his play of the last couple of games, Jawaan Taylor has been terrible. If Little is not even being considered to replace him, that tells me he's either not ready or something is really wrong and just like I though all along, he was the wrong selection. If he was even halfway decent, he should be starting in place of Taylor.

Penei is a bad example here. He started the season at RT and struggled mightily. Once Decker went down, Sewell slide back to his natural LT spot and looked amazing.

Penei's performance doesn't matter. It's the fact that he was a LT and was moved to RT based on the needs of the team. They took the best available OT on the board and changed his position, based upon where they needed him to play. That's what NFL teams do. If Little was truly good enough to beat out Taylor at this point, he'd be our starting RT.

flgatorsandjags · 10-21-2021, 10:20 AM

(10-21-2021, 09:25 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-21-2021, 09:08 AM)HolsterHusto Wrote: Penei is a bad example here. He started the season at RT and struggled mightily. Once Decker went down, Sewell slide back to his natural LT spot and looked amazing.

Penei's performance doesn't matter. It's the fact that he was a LT and was moved to RT based on the needs of the team. They took the best available OT on the board and changed his position, based upon where they needed him to play. That's what NFL teams do. If Little was truly good enough to beat out Taylor at this point, he'd be our starting RT.

Some players can make the switch better than others. It looks like the was the case with Sewell and possibly the case with Little as well. Little might feel much more comfortable and luck much better on the left side so they are just keeping him on that side with Richardson the backup RT.

TheO-LineMatters · 10-21-2021, 11:42 AM

(10-21-2021, 10:20 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote:
(10-21-2021, 09:25 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: Penei's performance doesn't matter. It's the fact that he was a LT and was moved to RT based on the needs of the team. They took the best available OT on the board and changed his position, based upon where they needed him to play. That's what NFL teams do. If Little was truly good enough to beat out Taylor at this point, he'd be our starting RT.

Some players can make the switch better than others. It looks like the was the case with Sewell and possibly the case with Little as well. Little might feel much more comfortable and luck much better on the left side so they are just keeping him on that side with Richardson the backup RT.

If that was the case with Little, he should be able to beat out Cam Robinson at LT and Robinson should be moved to RT. You can't tell me that we have two (starting quality) LT's on the roster and neither one has the ability to move to the right side and beat out one of the worst RT's in the NFL. The most likely scenario is that Little has not shown the ability to beat out either Robinson or Taylor. Having him sit on the bench when Taylor has played so poorly is not instilling any confidence in Little's abilities to start at LT for the long term.

RicoTx · 10-22-2021, 11:49 AM

(10-21-2021, 11:42 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(10-21-2021, 10:20 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: Some players can make the switch better than others. It looks like the was the case with Sewell and possibly the case with Little as well. Little might feel much more comfortable and luck much better on the left side so they are just keeping him on that side with Richardson the backup RT.

If that was the case with Little, he should be able to beat out Cam Robinson at LT and Robinson should be moved to RT. You can't tell me that we have two (starting quality) LT's on the roster and neither one has the ability to move to the right side and beat out one of the worst RT's in the NFL. The most likely scenario is that Little has not shown the ability to beat out either Robinson or Taylor. Having him sit on the bench when Taylor has played so poorly is not instilling any confidence in Little's abilities to start at LT for the long term.

You don't think that maybe his development might have been hindered by being injured and then on the covid list until 10/5?

TheO-LineMatters · 10-22-2021, 01:50 PM

(10-22-2021, 11:49 AM)RicoTx Wrote:
(10-21-2021, 11:42 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: If that was the case with Little, he should be able to beat out Cam Robinson at LT and Robinson should be moved to RT. You can't tell me that we have two (starting quality) LT's on the roster and neither one has the ability to move to the right side and beat out one of the worst RT's in the NFL. The most likely scenario is that Little has not shown the ability to beat out either Robinson or Taylor. Having him sit on the bench when Taylor has played so poorly is not instilling any confidence in Little's abilities to start at LT for the long term.

You don't think that maybe his development might have been hindered by being injured and then on the covid list until 10/5?

I think if you are a 1-15 team and you spend a 2nd round pick on a player of any position, the expectation is for that player to be an immediate starter. Especially when that position has and continues to be very weak (Taylor at RT.)