Kupp is a slot receiver.

Yes, he's elite and playing like one of the All time greats.  He's an exception,

Are Adam Theilen, Tyreek Hill, Keenan Allen, Tyler Lockett, Chris Godwin, CeeDee Lamb, and Robert Woods also "exceptions?" 

They've all produced big from the slot. 

The slot vs wide-out thing is an outdated argument in the evolving NFL nowadays. The old model of what we considered a prototypical slot guy has changed and will continue to do so.

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Yes, he's elite and playing like one of the All time greats.  He's an exception,

Are Adam Theilen, Tyreek Hill, Keenan Allen, Tyler Lockett, Chris Godwin, CeeDee Lamb, and Robert Woods also "exceptions?" 

They've all produced big from the slot. 

The slot vs wide-out thing is an outdated argument in the evolving NFL nowadays. The old model of what we considered a prototypical slot guy has changed and will continue to do so.

Yea it changed when they realized there was no rule governing it. The Pats used the slot really well when they had Brady and not much of anything outside. We need to find something else to pound the table about as no one on this board know what our HC and OC have in mind this year. (or where any of these guys will line up)

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

Yes, he's elite and playing like one of the All time greats.  He's an exception,

Are Adam Theilen, Tyreek Hill, Keenan Allen, Tyler Lockett, Chris Godwin, CeeDee Lamb, and Robert Woods also "exceptions?" 

They've all produced big from the slot. 

The slot vs wide-out thing is an outdated argument in the evolving NFL nowadays. The old model of what we considered a prototypical slot guy has changed and will continue to do so.

Just because one can produce big from the slot doesn't mean he's a slot WR.  Hell you could put Jerry Rice in slot and he would be one of the best but hes not a slot WR.  A slot WR is one that plays the majority in the slot and isn't that affective on the outside, that's what Kirk has been up to this point, not to mention he's never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.  Could he improve on the outside with this new Coaching staff?  Hopefully.   If not maybe he can put up 1200 or 13000  yards out of the slot and have a career year.

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Agreed completely Williams and Kirk are two entirely different types of player.  Yet their production is eeerily similar, eith Kirk actually having more catches in one fewer year than Williams, with the base salary some $2 million a year less than Williams deal.  BYC Jags has a point about that Williams deal.  If the production is very similar, why castigate the Jaguars for signing a lesser deal than Williams got with the Chargers?

You base WR production on catches?  Give me yards and TDs.  One done most of his work out of the slot and the other is a 6'4" 220lb WR that could be a number 1 on a lot of teams, he was a top 10 pick for a reason.  2 of his last 3 years he has had over 1000 yards and it would be 3 straight if he didn't miss 5 games a couple of years ago.  Kirk has never had a 1000 yards in a season.  With that said I think Trev is one of those QBs that can make a WR better and I think he gets his first 1000 yrd season.  I thought we overpaid a bit for Kirk but I've already said his contract looks much better after he helped set the market.  Do you want me to say I loved his contract and thought we got a steal?  Lol

Why come after me on this point?  Based on their production, both guys were overpaid.  I think whether you are looking at just the Kirk deal or the Kirk deal in conjunction with the Williams deal, I think they helped skew the market up.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Are Adam Theilen, Tyreek Hill, Keenan Allen, Tyler Lockett, Chris Godwin, CeeDee Lamb, and Robert Woods also "exceptions?" 

They've all produced big from the slot. 

The slot vs wide-out thing is an outdated argument in the evolving NFL nowadays. The old model of what we considered a prototypical slot guy has changed and will continue to do so.

Just because one can produce big from the slot doesn't mean he's a slot WR.  Hell you could put Jerry Rice in slot and he would be one of the best but hes not a slot WR.  A slot WR is one that plays the majority in the slot and isn't that affective on the outside, that's what Kirk has been up to this point, not to mention he's never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.  Could he improve on the outside with this new Coaching staff?  Hopefully.   If not maybe he can put up 1200 or 13000  yards out of the slot and have a career year.

You keep trying to use an outdated definition of slot receiver, but whatever. Live in the Stone Age all you want. 
You're just missing the boat on the fact that it doesn't really matter whether or not Kirk ends up playing mostly the Y position or not.
It doesn't lessen the value of his production. It just doesn't matter anymore.
I also think they'll motion him out or line him up outside whenever they are seeing lots of zone from an opponent. He'll have zero issues at X or Z versus zone coverage. There are good examples of this in his cardinals tape.

I still think it's weird how when we signed him you argued Kirk's value completely opposite to your narrative in this thread. 

Doesn't matter. You think the Kirk deal pushed up the entire market on receivers this year. 
I think that's a load of crap. 

Fine. 

If there is any truth to this notion, then whichever front offices signed inflated deals right after the Kirk deal are feebly weak negotiators. And the ones after that were in response to the bigger deals - not Kirk's.
A guy on deal with a 2 year out and 50% of his money in incentives shouldn't be setting the market. That's just insane.

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Just because one can produce big from the slot doesn't mean he's a slot WR.  Hell you could put Jerry Rice in slot and he would be one of the best but hes not a slot WR.  A slot WR is one that plays the majority in the slot and isn't that affective on the outside, that's what Kirk has been up to this point, not to mention he's never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.  Could he improve on the outside with this new Coaching staff?  Hopefully.   If not maybe he can put up 1200 or 13000  yards out of the slot and have a career year.

You keep trying to use an outdated definition of slot receiver, but whatever. Live in the Stone Age all you want. 

It's weird how when we signed him you argued Kirk's value completely opposite to your narrative in this thread. 

Doesn't matter. You think the Kirk deal pushed up the entire market on receivers this year. 
I think that's a load of crap. 

Fine. 

If there is any truth to this notion, then whichever front offices signed inflated deals right after the Kirk deal are feebly weak negotiators. A guy on deal with a 2 year out and 50% of his money in incentives shouldn't be setting the market. That's just insane.

Bigger slot WRs aren't exactly a new concept, FWIW, nor should their increased use in that capacity be a surprise.

Buffalo's Andre Reed did a lot of damage from inside while Don Beebe and James Lofton worked outside with the late 80s-early 1990s Bills.

A little more recently, at 6-4, Chris Henry was a very dangerous deep threat as a slot WR for the Bengals when they also featured Carson Palmer at QB with Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh outside.

Early in his career, Dallas' Ceedee Lamb started out as a bigger slot.  With the departure of guys like Cooper, I think Lamb will be primarily an outside guy.

Offenses are going to try anything that could give them a matchup advantage.  If that means employing a bigger guy inside, and going against the paradigm of smaller receivers like Wes Welker playing slot, so be it.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

You keep trying to use an outdated definition of slot receiver, but whatever. Live in the Stone Age all you want. 

It's weird how when we signed him you argued Kirk's value completely opposite to your narrative in this thread. 

Doesn't matter. You think the Kirk deal pushed up the entire market on receivers this year. 
I think that's a load of crap. 

Fine. 

If there is any truth to this notion, then whichever front offices signed inflated deals right after the Kirk deal are feebly weak negotiators. A guy on deal with a 2 year out and 50% of his money in incentives shouldn't be setting the market. That's just insane.

Bigger slot WRs aren't exactly a new concept, FWIW, nor should their increased use.

Buffalo's Andre Reed did a lot of damage from inside while Don Beebe and James Lofton worked outside with the late 80s-early 1990s Bills.

A little more recently, at 6-4, Chris Henry was a very dangerous deep threat as a slot WR for the Bengals when they also featured Carson Palmer at QB with Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh outside.

Early in his career, Dallas' Ceedee Lamb started out as a bigger slot.  With the departure of guys like Cooper, I think Lamb will be primarily an outside guy.

Offenses are going to try anything that could give them a matchup advantage.  If that means employing a bigger guy inside, and going against the paradigm of smaller receivers like Wes Welker playing slot, so be it.

The increase in production from slot receivers has been trending up for sometime and that's why I'm attempting (apparently poorly) to point out the flaw in saying "he's just a slot guy." 

Also, the notion that slot receivers aren't as valuable and shouldn't be paid similarly to Xs and Zs is going the way of the dinosaur soon enough. 

Here's an article from 6 years ago that was saying the same thing in 2016. Time marches on and we'll see slot receivers' money get much closer to top tier X and Z guys. 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/1/122457...ts-numbers

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Bigger slot WRs aren't exactly a new concept, FWIW, nor should their increased use.

Buffalo's Andre Reed did a lot of damage from inside while Don Beebe and James Lofton worked outside with the late 80s-early 1990s Bills.

A little more recently, at 6-4, Chris Henry was a very dangerous deep threat as a slot WR for the Bengals when they also featured Carson Palmer at QB with Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh outside.

Early in his career, Dallas' Ceedee Lamb started out as a bigger slot.  With the departure of guys like Cooper, I think Lamb will be primarily an outside guy.

Offenses are going to try anything that could give them a matchup advantage.  If that means employing a bigger guy inside, and going against the paradigm of smaller receivers like Wes Welker playing slot, so be it.

The increase in production from slot receivers has been trending up for sometime and that's why I'm attempting (apparently poorly) to point out the flaw in saying "he's just a slot guy." 

Also, the notion that slot receivers aren't as valuable and shouldn't be paid similarly to Xs and Zs is going the way of the dinosaur soon enough. 

Here's an article from 6 years ago that was saying the same thing in 2016. Time marches on and we'll see slot receivers' money get much closer to top tier X and Z guys. 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/1/122457...ts-numbers

I think the biggest reason is teams don't run 2 WR sets as much anymore so the majority of the time there will be at least 3 WRs on the field so the numbers will be better.  I don't hate the Kirk signing I just thought he was a bit overpaid but it don't look nowhere near as bad with these big WR contracts given out.  He was signed more on potential and what they think he can do more than what he has already done.  With that said I think TL will make WRs better and Kirk will have a career year along with Shenault.  Marvin Jones will get his regular 900+ yards 8 TDs

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Bigger slot WRs aren't exactly a new concept, FWIW, nor should their increased use.

Buffalo's Andre Reed did a lot of damage from inside while Don Beebe and James Lofton worked outside with the late 80s-early 1990s Bills.

A little more recently, at 6-4, Chris Henry was a very dangerous deep threat as a slot WR for the Bengals when they also featured Carson Palmer at QB with Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh outside.

Early in his career, Dallas' Ceedee Lamb started out as a bigger slot.  With the departure of guys like Cooper, I think Lamb will be primarily an outside guy.

Offenses are going to try anything that could give them a matchup advantage.  If that means employing a bigger guy inside, and going against the paradigm of smaller receivers like Wes Welker playing slot, so be it.

The increase in production from slot receivers has been trending up for sometime and that's why I'm attempting (apparently poorly) to point out the flaw in saying "he's just a slot guy." 

Also, the notion that slot receivers aren't as valuable and shouldn't be paid similarly to Xs and Zs is going the way of the dinosaur soon enough. 

Here's an article from 6 years ago that was saying the same thing in 2016. Time marches on and we'll see slot receivers' money get much closer to top tier X and Z guys. 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/1/122457...ts-numbers

Thank you for posting this, since through all the recent back and forth I couldn't help but think Larry Fitz was doing damage out of the slot, and why would anyone not want that?

I honestly give zero farts where anyone on this team lines up, so long as chains are moving and points are getting on the board.

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The big difference is that any top X or Z guy could also be a top slot guy. All of those Kupp, Woods, Thielen, Lockett, Godwin, etc types also dominate outside.

Kirk has not proven to be able to do that, quite the opposite in fact...thus far.

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The big difference is that any top X or Z guy could also be a top slot guy. All of those Kupp, Woods, Thielen, Lockett, Godwin, etc types also dominate outside.

Kirk has not proven to be able to do that, quite the opposite in fact...thus far.

That's what I was saying,

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The big difference is that any top X or Z guy could also be a top slot guy. All of those Kupp, Woods, Thielen, Lockett, Godwin, etc types also dominate outside.

Kirk has not proven to be able to do that, quite the opposite in fact...thus far.

And they all got contracts with better terms, and more money (annual inflation considered ) than Christian Kirk because of their versatility

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The big difference is that any top X or Z guy could also be a top slot guy. All of those Kupp, Woods, Thielen, Lockett, Godwin, etc types also dominate outside.

Kirk has not proven to be able to do that, quite the opposite in fact...thus far.

That's what I was saying,

It was two very simple sentences

You never said either one of them

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That's what I was saying,

It was too very simple sentences

You never said either one of them

I said just because one can play in the slot at a high level doesn't make you a slot WR.  I used Jerry Rice but you could use most of the elite WRs.  I didn't realize you thought all the guys you named were just good in the slot.    I've also stated that Kirk done most of his damage from the slot and wasn't very affective from the outside.  I didn't realize I had to use those exact words for you to understand. I'm glad Upper was able to get it through to you

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So, after 3 months of arguing, who's winning?

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So, after 3 months of arguing, who's winning?

Kirk

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It was too very simple sentences

You never said either one of them

I said just because one can play in the slot at a high level doesn't make you a slot WR.  I used Jerry Rice but you could use most of the elite WRs.  I didn't realize you thought all the guys you named were just good in the slot.    I've also stated that Kirk done most of his damage from the slot and wasn't very affective from the outside.  I didn't realize I had to use those exact words for you to understand.  I'm glad Upper was able to get it through to you

Oh I get it - you just talked in circles around it without stating it. 
What you don't see is that the value of a productive slot receiver is changing in today's NFL. In large part to the increased production at the position that some of the names listed have brought to it, but also by guys that spent the vast majority of their snaps in the slot. 

It's absolutely fair to say that Christian Kirk is probably not as versatile as some of the "big slot receivers" listed in the past few pages. It's also fair to say the ones on that list who have been paid recently were paid commensurately to their ability/versatility. 

Whereas Kirk's deal with only 2 years guaranteed and only 50% potential pay guaranteed suits his apparent lack of versatility.

A lack of versatility you and I have both stated may be proven to be less egregious under Pederson and Lawrence.

---

So, after 3 months of arguing, who's winning?

Ask again around Christmas. 
We might know (or care) if his contract is a ridiculous overpayment by then.

---

Bigger slot WRs aren't exactly a new concept, FWIW, nor should their increased use.

Buffalo's Andre Reed did a lot of damage from inside while Don Beebe and James Lofton worked outside with the late 80s-early 1990s Bills.

A little more recently, at 6-4, Chris Henry was a very dangerous deep threat as a slot WR for the Bengals when they also featured Carson Palmer at QB with Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh outside.

Early in his career, Dallas' Ceedee Lamb started out as a bigger slot.  With the departure of guys like Cooper, I think Lamb will be primarily an outside guy.

Offenses are going to try anything that could give them a matchup advantage.  If that means employing a bigger guy inside, and going against the paradigm of smaller receivers like Wes Welker playing slot, so be it.

The increase in production from slot receivers has been trending up for sometime and that's why I'm attempting (apparently poorly) to point out the flaw in saying "he's just a slot guy." 

Also, the notion that slot receivers aren't as valuable and shouldn't be paid similarly to Xs and Zs is going the way of the dinosaur soon enough. 

Here's an article from 6 years ago that was saying the same thing in 2016. Time marches on and we'll see slot receivers' money get much closer to top tier X and Z guys. 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/1/122457...ts-numbers

Not poorly at all.

There is a paradigm based on plenty of experience that slot WRs tend to be smaller guys who play inside to get them off the LOS so they can avoid the jam at the LOS.  flagatorsjags was not totally off base making the link between a smaller guy in Kirk and slot WRs.  Similarly, you have pointed out bigger WRs have succeeded in the slot.

This brings me to successful diminutive outside WRs...Duper, Clayton, Rickey Sanders, even Steve Smith. Obviously those guys thrived outside, and if put in the slot, I have no doubt they could have been effective there, too.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

So, after 3 months of arguing, who's winning?

Kirk

---

I said just because one can play in the slot at a high level doesn't make you a slot WR.  I used Jerry Rice but you could use most of the elite WRs.  I didn't realize you thought all the guys you named were just good in the slot.    I've also stated that Kirk done most of his damage from the slot and wasn't very affective from the outside.  I didn't realize I had to use those exact words for you to understand.  I'm glad Upper was able to get it through to you

Oh I get it - you just talked in circles around it without stating it. 
What you don't see is that the value of a productive slot receiver is changing in today's NFL. In large part to the increased production at the position that some of the names listed have brought to it, but also by guys that spent the vast majority of their snaps in the slot. 

It's absolutely fair to say that Christian Kirk is probably not as versatile as some of the "big slot receivers" listed in the past few pages. It's also fair to say the ones on that list who have been paid recently were paid commensurately to their ability/versatility. 

Whereas Kirk's deal with only 2 years guaranteed and only 50% potential pay guaranteed suits his apparent lack of versatility.

A lack of versatility you and I have both stated may be proven to be less egregious under Pederson and Lawrence.

---

So, after 3 months of arguing, who's winning?

Ask again around Christmas. 
We might know (or care) if his contract is a ridiculous overpayment by then.

Agreed, I thought we overpaid some but I don't think it's a big deal because we needed help.at the WR position however we could get it and I think Trev has the ability to make the WRs around him better, not to mention his deal looks better with all the WR extensions after him.  I think it's possible Kirk can have a career year with Trev and Doug along with this coaching staff.

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