(04-04-2022, 07:29 AM)Bullseye Wrote:

(04-03-2022, 04:36 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: Tom Brady didn't have a lot of interceptions because he's Tom Brady.  As many have said, he doesn't need a coach.  He can coach himself.  I think that's the point.

The question becomes has Leftwich shown himself to be an effective offensive coordinator when he doesn't have Tom Brady as his quarterback?  He took over as offensive coordinator mid-season with the Arizona Cardinals.  They finished dead last (32 out of 32) in both points and yards.  No one can credibly call that season a success.  It leaves his one year with the Bucs with Jameis Winston as quarterback.  Leftwich supporters, as you did, will point to the large number of yards and touchdowns.  However, just as you did, they will conveniently leave out the part about the 30 interceptions and the team finishing dead last in the NFL in giveaways.  

As far as interceptions not being Leftwich's fault, I find it hard to believe that it is a coincidence that Winston's number of interceptions under Leftwich were over double the amount he averaged in prior seasons and then the interceptions dramatically decreased once again when he switched teams.  He only had 3 interceptions in 7 starts last year.  I don't think it is hard to connect the dots.  His high passing yards and touchdowns in 2019 were clearly the result of him taking chances and making risky throws.  Yes, it leads to more yards, but it also leads to more interceptions.  You can't fairly judge the 2019 Bucs offense without mentioning giveaways.  At best, it was mixed results and even that seems overly generous.  Was Blake Bortles a mixed quarterback or a bad quarterback?  I think most would overwhelmingly say a bad quarterback.

I want to make it clear that I'm not hating on Leftwich.  He has done well with Brady.  Having Brady doesn't prove you are a bad offensive coordinator.  The problem is that it also doesn't prove that you are a good one.  Teams with head coach openings won't have the GOAT and most of them won't have someone even remotely close.  Leftwich's lack of success outside of Brady is the main factor holding him back from getting one of the head coaching jobs.  It has nothing to with race or how he wore his hat in the past.  Ironically, I think Brady un-retiring is a huge blow to Leftwich.  If Leftwich could have taken some inferior quarterback this year and still delivered high results, his chances of getting a head coaching job would have increased significantly.

Interesting reply on any number of levels.

In your first paragraph, you discuss the greatness of Tom Brady and how at this stage of his career he doesn't  need coaching.  It's not a point wholly without merit.  However, it also doesn't come without inconsistency.  For instance, if a player can be so great he doesn't need coaching, isn't it possible...even probable that a player could be so bad that no amount of coaching can help him be a productive NFL QB?  In your second paragraph, you noted that BL coached Rosen (then a rookie) for half a season, and the season was statistically horrible offensively.  But since he left Arizona, Rosen left the Cardinals too.  Rosen went to Miami via trade after the one year, then he went to SF only to be cut in preseason, and is currently with Atlanta.  But none of the other offensive minds who coached him got anything good out of him, either.  But you and the other guy still hold all of that against BL.  Why?  If you are going to completely disregard BL's experience with Tom Brady, an all time great, why not disregard the half season he was saddled with a complete bust in Josh Rosen?

For that matter, why hold Brady's greatness against Leftwich at all?

Let's look at a guy who most consider to be the gold standard of coaches...Bill Belichick.  This is what he had to work with as a defensive coordinator with the Giants, before he got his first NFL head coach.

Lawrence Taylor, Hall of Famer, member of NFL's 75th and 100th anniversary All time teams.
Harry Caron, Hall of Famer
Carl Banks, Pro Bowler
Pepper Johnson, Pro Bowler
Leonard Marshall, Pro Bowler
Jim Burt, Pro bowler
Terry Kinard, Pro Bowler
Everson Walls, Pro Bowler

Was that abundance of talent on that side of the ball held against him negatively?!?  Of course not.

The embarrassment of riches he's had to work with has been even more shocking when you look at what he had to work with as a head coach.


  Over the course of his coaching career as an coordinator and a head coach, Bill Belicheck coached SIX (6) guys on the NFL's all time 1005h anniversary list:

Junior Seau
Tom Brady
Adam Vinatieri
Rob Gronkowski
Randy Moss

To say nothing of other Hall of Famers who didn't make the All time 100th Anniversary team like

Richard Seymour,
Ty Law

to say nothing of guys who have yet to make the Hall of Fame but are strong candidates to do so:

Darelle Revis
Vince Wilfork
Logan Mankins
Aqib Talib

or to say nothing of Pro bowlers who may not be Hall of Famers

Matt Light
Rodney Harrison
Willie McGinest
Lawyer Milloy
Tedy Bruschi
Jerod Mayo
Wes Welker
Dan Koppen
Damien Woody

Were there any times during his career when he didn't have the overwhelming abundance of talent?

Yes.

When he got his first head coaching gig in Cleveland he had one (1) winning season in five (5) years.

So why isn't that abundance of talent used against him the way it is with BL?

There are similar analysis not only to be made with other coaches

Chuck Noll coaches the Steelers to be the team of the 1970s, winning four Super Bowls.

He coached numerous Hall of Famers, including

QB Terry Bradshaw
RB Franco Harris
WR Lynn Swann
WR John Stallworth
C Mike Webster (member of 75h & 100th anniversary all time teams)
DL Joe Greene (member of 75th & 100th anniversary all time teams
LB Jack Ham (member 75th and 100th anniversary all time team)
LB Jack Lambert (member 75th & 100th anniversary all time team)
CB Mel Blount (member 75th and 100th anniversary all time team
S Donnie Shell
and this doesn't factor in L.C. Greenwood who SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame, but isn't, having made 6 Pro bowls, been on the All decade team, and with 4 Super Bowl rings.

When those players began to retire, the Steelers fell off dramatically, and never went to another Super Bowl until Noll was replaced in the 1990s by Bill Cowher.  So if Noll didn't achieve anything of substance as a coach until he got hall of famers on his roster, why doesn't his accomplishments get discredited like BLs?

There is a similar dynamic with the current coaches.  The guy coaching the Chargers coached a guy who is headed for the Hall of Fame in Aaron Donald.  In fact, he might be headed for one of those anniversary type teams.  Yet nobody holds that against him as a coach, even though last year,he had one of the Bosa brothers, a great player in his own right, and they couldn't stop anyone.  But his success as a coordinator wasn't held against him.

The fact is, coaches need talent to be successful.  It's spectaculrly disingenuous to hold BL responsible for not producing with a documented bust like Josh Rosen, yet disregard his accomplishments with a great QB and not do the same to other coaches, nor have any of you expressed anything approaching a compelling reason why such a double standard would be utilized.

As for the interceptions I "conveniently" omitted, I provided MULTIPLE links to the very information you complained I omitted, all in plain view for anyone choosing to avail themselves of the facts.  I even gave the poster tips on how to be more compelling.  Though I try to be generous, I clearly exceeded that standard hare and have zero obligation to make his argument for him, particularly when he expressly rejected the idea of supporting his assertions with anything of substance.