Milton Friedman would have said that we should just let the free market sort out if kitchen staff should wash their hands or not.  He'd say that anyone who got food poisoning should just sue the restaurant that got them sick. No need for a mandate!

Sure, he did. That's not Reality World either.

I agree.  I find it very interesting that you take an arch-libertarian point of view everywhere except the area that you happen to work in and have expertise in, public health.  
Why is that?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Sure, he did. That's not Reality World either.

I agree.  I find it very interesting that you take an arch-libertarian point of view everywhere except the area that you happen to work in and have expertise in, public health.  
Why is that?

You do recognize that I'm arguing employer rights here, yes? I think healthcare and most other industries are over-regulated. That doesn't mean that when they institute a policy then employees should be able to just say "Nah brah" and keep their jobs. You agree with me on this too, so don't do your normal contrarian bull [BLEEP] and act like you don't.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I agree.  I find it very interesting that you take an arch-libertarian point of view everywhere except the area that you happen to work in and have expertise in, public health.  
Why is that?

You do recognize that I'm arguing employer rights here, yes? I think healthcare and most other industries are over-regulated. That doesn't mean that when they institute a policy then employees should be able to just say "Nah brah" and keep their jobs. You agree with me on this too, so don't do your normal contrarian bull [BLEEP] and act like you don't.

We agree that many industries are over-regulated.  We agree that some regulations are outdated or otherwise need to be reformed. Where we disagree, is you often say or imply that there should be no regulation at all on many things that are regulated today.  Campaign finance, guns, zoning, maybe other things?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

You do recognize that I'm arguing employer rights here, yes? I think healthcare and most other industries are over-regulated. That doesn't mean that when they institute a policy then employees should be able to just say "Nah brah" and keep their jobs. You agree with me on this too, so don't do your normal contrarian bull [BLEEP] and act like you don't.

We agree that many industries are over-regulated.  We agree that some regulations are outdated or otherwise need to be reformed. Where we disagree, is you often say or imply that there should be no regulation at all on many things that are regulated today.  Campaign finance, guns, zoning, maybe other things?

Wow, you turn a direct discussion on employer rights into direct assaults on the 1st, 2nd, and 5th amendments. Impressive.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

We agree that many industries are over-regulated.  We agree that some regulations are outdated or otherwise need to be reformed. Where we disagree, is you often say or imply that there should be no regulation at all on many things that are regulated today.  Campaign finance, guns, zoning, maybe other things?

Wow, you turn a direct discussion on employer rights into direct assaults on the 1st, 2nd, and 5th amendments. Impressive.

Suppose I want to practice medicine.  I want to be able to anesthetize people, cut them open, fix em up, and sew em back together.  But if I even try to market myself in this area, the state of Florida will prosecute me for doing so without a license.  I might have been able to find willing customers! How is that anything other than an assault on my 5th amendment freedom of contract?
And if it's not, why is it not while another person's desire to build a large, loud nightclub next to my house (prevented by zoning) is?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

He can't see it, dude. I'll try again to break it down tomorrow, when I have more energy.

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He can't see it, dude. I'll try again to break it down tomorrow, when I have more energy.

Nah. That’s ok dude. You really don’t have to do that.

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Wow, you turn a direct discussion on employer rights into direct assaults on the 1st, 2nd, and 5th amendments. Impressive.

Suppose I want to practice medicine.  I want to be able to anesthetize people, cut them open, fix em up, and sew em back together.  But if I even try to market myself in this area, the state of Florida will prosecute me for doing so without a license.  I might have been able to find willing customers! How is that anything other than an assault on my 5th amendment freedom of contract?
And if it's not, why is it not while another person's desire to build a large, loud nightclub next to my house (prevented by zoning) is?

You missed the part where I said I agree that it's over-regulated? Now, if my medical group doesn't want to hire you as a surgeon unless you have a medical license are you entitled to the job? Because that's what we're discussing, not your attempts to word barf the question to death. I'm not an anarchist, the government has a very limited role to play. The problem is that the government very easily and quickly moves beyond that role into stuff they should stay out of, especially as it pertains to Constitutionally protected rights.

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He can't see it, dude. I'll try again to break it down tomorrow, when I have more energy.

Why do you need to break it down when you won't answer my very simple question? Don't you always jump on Mikesez about his blabbering to avoid a simple "yes" or "no" answer? Just answer the question with one of those words. We can then go from there.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Suppose I want to practice medicine.  I want to be able to anesthetize people, cut them open, fix em up, and sew em back together.  But if I even try to market myself in this area, the state of Florida will prosecute me for doing so without a license.  I might have been able to find willing customers! How is that anything other than an assault on my 5th amendment freedom of contract?
And if it's not, why is it not while another person's desire to build a large, loud nightclub next to my house (prevented by zoning) is?

You missed the part where I said I agree that it's over-regulated? Now, if my medical group doesn't want to hire you as a surgeon unless you have a medical license are you entitled to the job? Because that's what we're discussing, not your attempts to word barf the question to death. I'm not an anarchist, the government has a very limited role to play. The problem is that the government very easily and quickly moves beyond that role into stuff they should stay out of, especially as it pertains to Constitutionally protected rights.

In that case, no, I wouldn't be entitled to that job.
But I'm asking if it's right or permissible for the state to prosecute me for offering to perform surgery?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

You missed the part where I said I agree that it's over-regulated? Now, if my medical group doesn't want to hire you as a surgeon unless you have a medical license are you entitled to the job? Because that's what we're discussing, not your attempts to word barf the question to death. I'm not an anarchist, the government has a very limited role to play. The problem is that the government very easily and quickly moves beyond that role into stuff they should stay out of, especially as it pertains to Constitutionally protected rights.

In that case, no, I wouldn't be entitled to that job.
But I'm asking if it's right or permissible for the state to prosecute me for offering to perform surgery?

Right? No. Legal? Currently yes.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

He can't see it, dude. I'll try again to break it down tomorrow, when I have more energy.

Nah. That’s ok dude. You really don’t have to do that.

Some people see Mt. Everest as a natural beauty.. Something to sit there and admire like a true natural wonder that it is..

Then there's some people who look at Mt. Everest and say to themselves, "That sucker needs climbin'"..

That's L2L.. He'll die tryin lol

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In that case, no, I wouldn't be entitled to that job.
But I'm asking if it's right or permissible for the state to prosecute me for offering to perform surgery?

Right? No. Legal? Currently yes.

OK well at least that fits within the other views you've expressed.  I thought I was finding a hypocrisy.  Guess not.  But you are aware that your views on this are radically different from the majority of american people, right?

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Right? No. Legal? Currently yes.

OK well at least that fits within the other views you've expressed.  I thought I was finding a hypocrisy.  Guess not.  But you are aware that your views on this are radically different from the majority of american people, right?

I do try to be consistent in my views and I know that no one political party or perspective adequately encompasses all of them. Libertarianism is about the closest I've found and so I stay over there with the other freaks. And I take solace in my own views knowing that the vast majority of colonists didn't want freedom from the English Crown either. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right and just because a majority is against it doesn't make it wrong.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Nah. That’s ok dude. You really don’t have to do that.

Some people see Mt. Everest as a natural beauty.. Something to sit there and admire like a true natural wonder that it is..

Then there's some people who look at Mt. Everest and say to themselves, "That sucker needs climbin'"..

That's L2L.. He'll die tryin lol

For real

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Sure, the last line of that post was opinion, but it's a fact the government is in the force business, and it's a fact that they created a mandate for hospitals. And it's a fact that those hospitals had to fire people that didn't get the vaccine or go under due to massive fines. And it's a fact that you can safely use that word in context and be correct. It's my opinion that you seem to be conveniently ignoring that in this instance.

1. And you're ignoring that many if not most of those hospitals already had a mandate in place and would've included Covid as a component without regard to the actions of the government.

 No. I am not. I have said I acknowledge that many hospitals were already doing this, but have you acknowledged that many weren't? Because that's the crux of my argument. Many hospitals did not require vaccines until it was mandated by the government, which means it was the government mandate that removed choice. Which is... wait for it... force, especially when not done through an elective body.

2. You seem to think that a government mandate for something means that everyone does it against their will. But, as we go around the circle again, no one has a right to employment. Are you arguing that they do or not? If you agree with me that they do not then this conversation is effectively over because we are in accord. If you disagree with me and say that they do have a right to their employment then we need to shift to something entirely different.

 I'm fine with right to employment, but that doesn't end this conversation. We're not talking about right to work. We're talking about whether it's force when the government regulates the free market. People are free to pick where they work and employers are free to set their criterion. I have no contention with you on this point. This is called the free market. It's no longer the free market once the government imposes mandates, and anywhere they make mandatory laws, it's government compulsion, whether it's good or bad. Again, my point. I'm objecting you you telling NewJagsCity that he was being manipulative with words.

3. You want to talk about why the rules are in place and treat that as your evidence that they had no choice. That's wrong, they had a choice and if they choose to not comply with the rules then they chose to leave their employment. That's not unique to this Covid circumstance, it's a basic fact of life here in Reality World. 

 No. When the government interferes in the free market. It eliminates choice. What it says goes, or you face the consequences. They are not trying to get people to choose; they are trying to get people to comply. In any other area of government, you would recognize this, but you are blinded by your involvement in your profession. I'm honestly starting to think your cognitive dissonance here stems from your libertarian point of view, not your profession, but I digress.

4. If you'd quit trying to spin this to align with your anti-Covid vaccine perspective you would see that you agree with me because you would never defend a food service employee not agreeing to wearing gloves and a hair net on the line or washing their hands after using the restroom.

 This has nothing to do with my "anti-Covid vaccine" perspective, which isn't even anti-Covid vaccine. This has everything to do with you talking down to NewJagsCity, like he was be manipulative by using the word "force." It's a perfectly fine word. The government forces you to wear seatbelts and do speed limits. You seem to think I'm debating whether or not it's a good or bad policy. I don't care. That's not what I'm doing here. 

5. There's just no way you would say the employer had to both keep them employed and allow them to flout company policy (even policy that's *gasp* mandated). Except in this one, and it has nothing to do with employment rights and everything to do with your feelings about the vaccine.

 Do I need to say it again? I have answered all of your "questions," but you have not answered mine. Why is force not the right word? Why did the government need to make a mandate if the free market had already resolved it? If your answer is precedent, just admit that is force. Just like paying taxes. Like I originally said. 

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Like I said, you agree with me then still want to argue that you're right and I'm wrong.

Let's see if I can get you to remove your blinders. Last February Apple mandated boosters for their employees. There was no government mandate for them to do so, who forced Apple to mandate Covid vaccine boosters for their employees? Were those employees "forced" to get the shot (or use the exemption process that you of course ignore) or did they have a choice?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You are so thick-skulled. So, is it force or not?

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Like I said, you agree with me then still want to argue that you're right and I'm wrong.

Let's see if I can get you to remove your blinders. Last February Apple mandated boosters for their employees. There was no government mandate for them to do so, who forced Apple to mandate Covid vaccine boosters for their employees? Were those employees "forced" to get the shot (or use the exemption process that you of course ignore) or did they have a choice?

Not force, no government intervention.  I've answered L2L's question for him.

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Yeah... I'm not sure what you're saying there, pal.

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You are so thick-skulled. So, is it force or not?

Hahahah and you’re not thick skulled?

Come on buddy. Give it a rest and move on. You’re not changing his mind and he’s not changing yours.

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