You are so thick-skulled. So, is it force or not?

Lol, you keep asking an already answered question because all you can do is keep trying to spin it so you're right. No, it's not force if you have a choice. Being forced would be a national total mandate with no option and no exception. Being forced is what happens in Basic when you get your shots. Being forced is being physically restrained and immunized against your will. None of those things happened, people were given a choice. Not one person who didn't want the shot was forced to get it, but people who didn't want to agree to their employer's terms chose to end their employment. That's not force in the sense that he was trying to present it, it was the consequence of a decision each person made for him or herself. That you don't like that they had to make that choice is irrelevant, they weren't forced to get the vaccine.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You are so thick-skulled. So, is it force or not?

Lol, you keep asking an already answered question because all you can do is keep trying to spin it so you're right. No, it's not force if you have a choice. Being forced would be a national total mandate with no option and no exception. Being forced is what happens in Basic when you get your shots. Being forced is being physically restrained and immunized against your will. None of those things happened, people were given a choice. Not one person who didn't want the shot was forced to get it, but people who didn't want to agree to their employer's terms chose to end their employment. That's not force in the sense that he was trying to present it, it was the consequence of a decision each person made for him or herself. That you don't like that they had to make that choice is irrelevant, they weren't forced to get the vaccine.

Perhaps the proper word is “coerced”

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Lol, you keep asking an already answered question because all you can do is keep trying to spin it so you're right. No, it's not force if you have a choice. Being forced would be a national total mandate with no option and no exception. Being forced is what happens in Basic when you get your shots. Being forced is being physically restrained and immunized against your will. None of those things happened, people were given a choice. Not one person who didn't want the shot was forced to get it, but people who didn't want to agree to their employer's terms chose to end their employment. That's not force in the sense that he was trying to present it, it was the consequence of a decision each person made for him or herself. That you don't like that they had to make that choice is irrelevant, they weren't forced to get the vaccine.

Perhaps the proper word is “coerced”

The word is "choice"; every person got one, every person made one.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Lol. Remember that when they ban assault rifles and you choose to sell yours back instead of go to jail.

---

Lol. Remember that when they ban assault rifles and you choose to sell yours back instead of go to jail.

Imprisonment and unemployment are two very different things...

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Perhaps the proper word is “coerced”

The word is "choice"; every person got one, every person made one.

Technically you are correct but had the consequences been different, the choices made by many would have been different as well.  If that is not coercion then I don’t know what is.  Again in the words of Abraham Lincoln “You must remember that some things legally right are not morally right”.

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Lol. Remember that when they ban assault rifles and you choose to sell yours back instead of go to jail.

Imprisonment and unemployment are two very different things...

Don't mess up the Ronster-esque stretch man.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You guys make me laugh. If I put a gun to a person's head and tell them they don't have the right to exist if they don't fire their employees I don't like, those employees don't have a choice. It's sleight of hand and you have your hand buried so far up your [BLEEP] you can't see anything but your own [BLEEP].

---

There are no employer rights if the government is mandating their decisions. It's force, but you, like many other libertarians who have their values exploited, have too myopic a view of the situation to say what it is. Is it moral? I'm not arguing that. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

---

You guys make me laugh. If I put a gun to a person's head and tell them they don't have the right to exist if they don't fire their employees I don't like, those employees don't have a choice. It's sleight of hand and you have your hand buried so far up your [BLEEP] you can't see anything but your own [BLEEP].

---

There are no employer rights if the government is mandating their decisions. It's force, but you, like many other libertarians who have their values exploited, have too myopic a view of the situation to say what it is. Is it moral? I'm not arguing that. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

No, you're expressing your opinion as a fact not in evidence. That you need to resort to extreme scenarios shows the weakness of your position. It's ok to take the L friend.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Sigh. Extremes are used in analogies because it's easier for people to get the point. I am juxtaposing the normal against something decisively abnormal to highlight my positions. It's an analogy, man. Let me show you how easy it is to avoid using your brain in a debate: "That you can't understand a basic analogy shows the weakness of your position. It's ok to take the L friend." Notice how there is no intellectual integrity there? Did I use any logic to address you?

Where are the employer's right to hire unvaccinated employees? Does that exist? AdventHealth, the Cleveland Clinic, HCA Healthcare, Intermountain Healthcare, and Tenet Healthcare canceled vaccination requirements after the Supreme Court put a hold on Biden's mandate, specifically to help with labor shortages. Once the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the mandate, what "rights" do they have? They have to comply with the government or go under. 

When you tell a business they can no longer exist, if they don't regulate their employees the way you want, you remove this "employer's rights" thing you keep yammering on about. They are not making that decision without coercion, which is then passed onto their employees. The employees now have no alternative place for them to find employment in a similar field. 

What I am trying to do is make a distinction between the free market, in which employees have power to shape the terms of employment via seeking employment elsewhere, and a regulated industry, in which that becomes impossible. You are conflating the two. Not me.

You can't have employer's right to hire AND a government that is regulating who they hire. Those things don't go together. If it's the former, employees do have a "choice," because even though their employer may voluntarily choose to have a hiring requirement, the employee can go somewhere else. When the place of employment doesn't have a voluntary requirement because it's mandated by the government, the employer is no longer the one setting the terms AND the employee can no longer shape the free market.

This is logic. Now, do we have a government that sometimes dictates certain requirements for employers? Yes. HOWEVER, when they do, it's government compulsion, and free market principles are no longer in play. It doesn't change the FACT that force is a perfectly acceptable word to use for any regulation that is unilaterally brought on by the government. This is logic.

You are avoiding reconciling these ideas. You can have either, but not both. And, since we've arrived at this point, I have to go full Mikesez argument mode with you and get into semantics.

Definition of force: Noun: violence, COMPULSION, or constraint exerted upon or against a person or thing

Without a doubt, the word force fits with what I've said when we're using it as a noun. You're hiding behind the verb use of the word in which one of the definitions is: to do violence to. Do you think that any of us are suggesting this? If that's the game you want to play, congrats, you win. You're [BLEEP] brilliant. 

If you're a normal human being, you can use almost any other verb choice that makes sense in this context, but it's this one: to COMPEL, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something. Are you going to FORCE me to define the words compulsion or compel? Oops, I said force, and you're not tying me up... I must have used the wrong word. Oh, what's that? The English language is complex and it takes someone not being a simpleton to understand context? Silly me.  

You're being either disingenuous or blind. You pick.

---

That you're trying to limit the word to a narrow, unrelated definition shows the weakness of your position. It's ok to take the L friend. Am I doing this right?

---

Yes, "violence" is exactly the intimation he was going for; it's hyperbolic and that's what I was calling out with this whole thread. Yes, "forced" is a common usage that, along with "coerced" as copycat said, can be applicable here. And yet, as I said, it's wasn't truly "forced" because they had options, you just think it's not fair that those options don't include letting the employees do what they want. You want to talk about Forced Labor we can do that, what we have here is nothing of the sort. And of course, as I said, you have no issue with a great number of these instances in other industries or other circumstances; you just have to act out against me here because of THIS circumstance and what I do for a living.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

What a weird dude.

---

Yes, "violence" is exactly the intimation he was going for; it's hyperbolic and that's what I was calling out with this whole thread. Yes, "forced" is a common usage that, along with "coerced" as copycat said, can be applicable here. And yet, as I said, it's wasn't truly "forced" because they had options, you just think it's not fair that those options don't include letting the employees do what they want. You want to talk about Forced Labor we can do that, what we have here is nothing of the sort. And of course, as I said, you have no issue with a great number of these instances in other industries or other circumstances; you just have to act out against me here because of THIS circumstance and what I do for a living.

Let's ask him. NewJagsCity, were you trying to imply the government was physically forcing people to take the vaccine? I mean, I certainly didn't get that from the context and don't see how anyone could be implying that, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Or were you trying to say that the government removed free market options from the people by mandating that employer's fire people who didn't take the jab? I mean, that settles this, right? If he says the former, I will say my bad and walk away. If he says the latter, we both agree that it was a fine word in this situation? 

I can't wait until we get to choose electric vehicles or walking when the government bans anyone selling a gas vehicle. Gotta love this reasoning.

---

Yes, "violence" is exactly the intimation he was going for; it's hyperbolic and that's what I was calling out with this whole thread. Yes, "forced" is a common usage that, along with "coerced" as copycat said, can be applicable here. And yet, as I said, it's wasn't truly "forced" because they had options, you just think it's not fair that those options don't include letting the employees do what they want. You want to talk about Forced Labor we can do that, what we have here is nothing of the sort. And of course, as I said, you have no issue with a great number of these instances in other industries or other circumstances; you just have to act out against me here because of THIS circumstance and what I do for a living.

Let's ask him. NewJagsCity, were you trying to imply the government was physically forcing people to take the vaccine? I mean, I certainly didn't get that from the context and don't see how anyone could be implying that, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Or were you trying to say that the government removed free market options from the people by mandating that employer's fire people who didn't take the jab? I mean, that settles this, right? If he says the former, I will say my bad and walk away. If he says the latter, we both agree that it was a fine word in this situation? 

I can't wait until we get to choose electric vehicles or walking when the government bans anyone selling a gas vehicle. Gotta love this reasoning.

Lol, and I can't wait until the stormtroopers show up at your house to hit you with the Injecto-matic.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Wrong force, dummy.

---

Yes, "violence" is exactly the intimation he was going for; it's hyperbolic and that's what I was calling out with this whole thread. Yes, "forced" is a common usage that, along with "coerced" as copycat said, can be applicable here. And yet, as I said, it's wasn't truly "forced" because they had options, you just think it's not fair that those options don't include letting the employees do what they want. You want to talk about Forced Labor we can do that, what we have here is nothing of the sort. And of course, as I said, you have no issue with a great number of these instances in other industries or other circumstances; you just have to act out against me here because of THIS circumstance and what I do for a living.

Let's ask him. NewJagsCity, were you trying to imply the government was physically forcing people to take the vaccine? I mean, I certainly didn't get that from the context and don't see how anyone could be implying that, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Or were you trying to say that the government removed free market options from the people by mandating that employer's fire people who didn't take the jab? I mean, that settles this, right? If he says the former, I will say my bad and walk away. If he says the latter, we both agree that it was a fine word in this situation? 

I can't wait until we get to choose electric vehicles or walking when the government bans anyone selling a gas vehicle. Gotta love this reasoning.

Of course not. I thought i made that clear in post #23. If i wasnt clear, then i apologize. I certainly meant the latter.

---

"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

I'm shocked. Shocked I say.

---

And so we're right back where we started. You can choose between the job and the jab...your choice.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Sure thing, pal.

---

Sure thing, pal.

How about this. Each person is forced to make a choice but no one is forced into a particular response. Can we agree on that?

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato