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Roe v Wade reversed

#81

(06-26-2022, 04:23 PM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 04:18 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: I think the answer from the right is, more or less yes. Although you could opt to give the child up for adoption after the birth.

To some yes, but most would say abortion is appropriate in that situation.

Agreed although the argument I've heard that abortion is murder implies that it would be murder in that case also, no?

Polls seem to favor the pro-choice viewpoint. Here's one. Personally, I don't believe it should be used as birth control.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cbs-news-poll...11112.html
I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.
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#82

(06-26-2022, 08:26 PM)copycat Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 06:49 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: Something else to take into account is there are now more, more effective, and more accessible methods of birth control.

With that being said, my personal opinion on this matter, (as if anyone cares) is that even though I’m not pro-abortion, I think they should have left it alone.

I saw a poll somewhere that most people agree with you.  The same poll also said an even greater majority thought abortion should be illegal. This is not a cut and dry issue by any means.

Most people see abortion as necessary in instances of rape, incest or the mother's life is in jeopardy. Where opinions begin to diverge is the use of abortion strictly as a method of birth control, especially when it veers into support for late-term abortions. It becomes almost a ghoulish disregard for human life at that point.
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#83

(06-26-2022, 09:08 PM)MarleyJag Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 04:23 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: To some yes, but most would say abortion is appropriate in that situation.

Agreed although the argument I've heard that abortion is murder implies that it would be murder in that case also, no?

Polls seem to favor the pro-choice viewpoint. Here's one. Personally, I don't believe it should be used as birth control.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cbs-news-poll...11112.html

Very very few people think that abortion is actually murder.  The people who actually think that and follow through to the logical conclusions are sometimes called absolutists. 

It's just a mental shortcut to say one thing should be treated the same as another even when they are different.  Murder, rape, slavery, and child abuse are all different crimes.  We can call each of them crimes on the individual level without insisting they are the same.  So it should be with abortion.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#84

(06-26-2022, 09:08 PM)MarleyJag Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 04:23 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: To some yes, but most would say abortion is appropriate in that situation.

Agreed although the argument I've heard that abortion is murder implies that it would be murder in that case also, no?

Polls seem to favor the pro-choice viewpoint. Here's one. Personally, I don't believe it should be used as birth control.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cbs-news-poll...11112.html

I believe what will happen now is state laws will be adjusted in the coming months and years to conform with the moderate views the large middle ground on this issue hold. States with non-abortion trigger laws will most likely change to allow it in certain circumstances. It's going to take some time for this matter to settle out at the state level. I would venture to guess in 2-3 years there will only be a few states where all abortion is illegal.
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#85
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2022, 10:52 PM by mikesez. Edited 1 time in total.)

(06-26-2022, 09:27 PM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 09:08 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: Agreed although the argument I've heard that abortion is murder implies that it would be murder in that case also, no?

Polls seem to favor the pro-choice viewpoint. Here's one. Personally, I don't believe it should be used as birth control.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cbs-news-poll...11112.html

I believe what will happen now is state laws will be adjusted in the coming months and years to conform with the moderate views the large middle ground on this issue hold. States with non-abortion trigger laws will most likely change to allow it in certain circumstances. It's going to take some time for this matter to settle out at the state level. I would venture to guess in 2-3 years there will only be a few states where all abortion is illegal.

That is very naive. 
The number of states where the legislature is immune to majority opinion is more than "a few".
I think it will be more common to see states where, at the state level, there are strict, punitive laws, but in the more liberal cities in those states where the abortions actually occur, there will be prosecutors and judges turning blind eyes to the reports they receive.  This is already happening to a small extent in Orlando.  It's one thing when an unethical behavior is legal, but it's worse when that behavior is illegal but not prosecuted.  That is the definition of lawlessness.  We've had almost four decades of lawlessness on immigration and I'm afraid we are coming into even more lawlessness.  And due to the growing number of women who will use medication abortion, there will be some innocent women who are investigated and shamed for their natural miscarriages.  It's awful.  Isn't miscarriage traumatizing enough already?

We can criminalize our way into slightly fewer abortions but the collateral damage will be large.  

But there are other things we can do that will have much more impact.
We can give better sex education.
We can make contraception free.
We can use more tax credits to make having a child less expensive.
We can just be a society that makes it easier to continue with your life while you're pregnant or nursing.  A society that tolerates crying babies in college classrooms.  A society that has more and better part time work opportunities.  
Some of these are not tasks for government, but they are tasks for society.
Why don't we focus on those things?
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#86

(06-26-2022, 08:05 PM)p_rushing Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 05:53 PM)mikesez Wrote: No one ever really explains how an exception for rape would work.  Would the woman have to file a police report first?  Would women simply lie, and tell their doctors they were raped?  Would the doctor have to have a reasonable belief that she wasn't lying?  Women get very upset about these discussions because the implication is that not all rape accusations are true.  Even if I agree that it is usually very rare for women to lie about being raped, wouldn't you have to agree that this type of exception to abortion law incentivizes false reports? It seems very messy.  And I think that will play out as states work these things out as laboratories of democracy.
Abortions for rape and incest or to save the mother's life are extremely rare. I can understand the woman not wanting the child but at the same time she is then choosing to kill the child that did nothing wrong.

It's a terrible situation but to then add to it by killing a child growing inside of you will most likely bring more trauma. There are plenty of options that don't include killing the child.

I haven't seen any of the laws with the exception but like most laws, it would require you to actually tell the truth or you could get around the law.

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The woman should have a choice in what happens next because she damn sure didn't have a choice when she was assaulted by rape or incest. 

Hopefully it's a Plan B pill but many women will not even report rape or incest because they're ashamed, blame themselves, think no one will believe her, or has been threatened not to tell. By the time she realizes she's pregnant Plan B is out the window. If she chooses to abort she chooses to live with the consequences. 

Of course, adoption is a better choice but not woman can emotionally handle the process. Black and brown babies are not as adoptable as white babies and they end up in the rabbit hole that is the foster care system which has its own problems. 

I don't wish for any woman to choose abortion. I wouldn't choose it for myself except under certain circumstances. But the government has no reason to be involved in a decision that is between a doctor and a patient. 

There are women in these states whose fetus will not live outside of the uterus once born and they will be forced to carry that fetus to term only for it to die soon after it's born. This has happened in Texas. The government has no right to force that woman to carry an unviable fetus to term, especially when her doctor has suggested termination. No. Right. If the woman chooses to do that then so be it, but at least she has that choice.
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#87

(06-25-2022, 09:55 PM)NoShoes Wrote:
(06-24-2022, 01:17 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: If we had to wear a mask to prevent covid for the last couple of years, they can wear a condom to prevent pregnancy.

If only the fathers of everyone that thinks this way wore a condom this world would be a better place.

Wow. You are truly a buffoon.
"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption
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#88

(06-25-2022, 09:55 PM)NoShoes Wrote:
(06-24-2022, 01:17 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: If we had to wear a mask to prevent covid for the last couple of years, they can wear a condom to prevent pregnancy.

If only the fathers of everyone that thinks this way wore a condom this world would be a better place.

What is factually incorrect about his statement?
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#89

(06-26-2022, 03:56 PM)NoShoes Wrote: Foster home’s already over running. They don’t have room for these kids.

I’ve been conservative my whole life but I’m fixing to vote for Abrams this fall.

Most private adoption services are conservative. How many are run by pro-choicers? Maybe if they were truly about "choice", then they might offer those services. But no they just take the easy way out, kill em. Real compassion there.
"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption
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#90

Adoption across race lines is common now. If there is a pregnant mom that knows she doesn't want to keep it, agencies find the next available couple to parent regardless of race.
The kids that still don't get adopted are the ones that were with their mother for a while, then for whatever reason got moved to the foster system. When they're not newborn it is much harder to find a couple willing to adopt them.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#91

(06-26-2022, 11:11 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 08:05 PM)p_rushing Wrote: Abortions for rape and incest or to save the mother's life are extremely rare. I can understand the woman not wanting the child but at the same time she is then choosing to kill the child that did nothing wrong.

It's a terrible situation but to then add to it by killing a child growing inside of you will most likely bring more trauma. There are plenty of options that don't include killing the child.

I haven't seen any of the laws with the exception but like most laws, it would require you to actually tell the truth or you could get around the law.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

The woman should have a choice in what happens next because she damn sure didn't have a choice when she was assaulted by rape or incest. 

Hopefully it's a Plan B pill but many women will not even report rape or incest because they're ashamed, blame themselves, think no one will believe her, or has been threatened not to tell. By the time she realizes she's pregnant Plan B is out the window. If she chooses to abort she chooses to live with the consequences. 

Of course, adoption is a better choice but not woman can emotionally handle the process. Black and brown babies are not as adoptable as white babies and they end up in the rabbit hole that is the foster care system which has its own problems. 

I don't wish for any woman to choose abortion. I wouldn't choose it for myself except under certain circumstances. But the government has no reason to be involved in a decision that is between a doctor and a patient. 

There are women in these states whose fetus will not live outside of the uterus once born and they will be forced to carry that fetus to term only for it to die soon after it's born. This has happened in Texas. The government has no right to force that woman to carry an unviable fetus to term, especially when her doctor has suggested termination. No. Right. If the woman chooses to do that then so be it, but at least she has that choice.

It's definitely not an easy decision to make. I think most states will end up allowing it for those exceptions.

As far as the cases where something happens during the pregnancy, those aren't abortions but the medical industry has classified them as such instead of miscarriages. Who knows why but they generally do that. Then there are cases where DNA testing and other screening shows the child is probably going to have some issues and they recommend abortions. Those tests have been shown to be incredibly inaccurate.

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#92
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2022, 06:11 AM by The Real Marty. Edited 1 time in total.)

(06-26-2022, 09:24 PM)mikesez Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 09:08 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: Agreed although the argument I've heard that abortion is murder implies that it would be murder in that case also, no?

Polls seem to favor the pro-choice viewpoint. Here's one. Personally, I don't believe it should be used as birth control.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cbs-news-poll...11112.html

Very very few people think that abortion is actually murder.  The people who actually think that and follow through to the logical conclusions are sometimes called absolutists. 

It's just a mental shortcut to say one thing should be treated the same as another even when they are different.  Murder, rape, slavery, and child abuse are all different crimes.  We can call each of them crimes on the individual level without insisting they are the same.  So it should be with abortion.

The question I have for people who think abortion should be legal in cases of rape is, if one thinks that a child in the womb deserves protection, isn't a child that results from a rape still a child?  And therefore deserving of protection?  If that is a child, then how it got there is irrelevant.  

Isn't the unavoidable, fundamental question, is that a child, and as a child does it have any rights?  You can't avoid that question by citing how the child got there.

If it's a child, then abortion is murder.  If it's not a child, then abortion should be legal.  All these efforts to find a compromise solution fail in light of that fundamental question.
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#93

(06-27-2022, 06:07 AM)The Real Marty Wrote:
(06-26-2022, 09:24 PM)mikesez Wrote: Very very few people think that abortion is actually murder.  The people who actually think that and follow through to the logical conclusions are sometimes called absolutists. 

It's just a mental shortcut to say one thing should be treated the same as another even when they are different.  Murder, rape, slavery, and child abuse are all different crimes.  We can call each of them crimes on the individual level without insisting they are the same.  So it should be with abortion.

The question I have for people who think abortion should be legal in cases of rape is, if one thinks that a child in the womb deserves protection, isn't a child that results from a rape still a child?  And therefore deserving of protection?  If that is a child, then how it got there is irrelevant.  

Isn't the unavoidable, fundamental question, is that a child, and as a child does it have any rights?  You can't avoid that question by citing how the child got there.

If it's a child, then abortion is murder.  If it's not a child, then abortion should be legal.  All these efforts to find a compromise solution fail in light of that fundamental question.

Thus the endless arguments and legislation attempting to define when life begins. It’s a deeply moral issue, admittedly more with some than others, that can never be satisfactorily resolved by all sides. 
How is the physical, emotional and financial obligations of nurturing and rearing a person, or subjecting that person to a childhood of neglect and abuse, or relinquishing that person at birth, weighed against the immutable urge of the human animal to engage in the act of procreation? In the eyes of many, one can be readily eliminated. 

It is an endless debate propagated by the whims and multifaceted morality of the human race.
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#94

Studies say 75% of liberal females are on anti-psychotic medication. That means 25% are running around unmedicated.
"If you always do what you've always done, You'll always get what you always got"
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