Curious.  Do "generational talents" at QB never throw incompletions. interceptions, etc?

Do generational talents at QBs NOT require development?

Do generational talents at QB NOT require sufficient surrounding talent and coaching to start to look the part?

Not "jumping on you" per se, but I'm starting to wonder if the descriptor "generational talent" is affecting the analysis.

That descriptor is supposed to be there for a reason. If Lawrence is a new Andy Dalton or whatever barely adequate starter I would be very dissappointed considering what he was sold as. Wouldn't you?

Now, I think it's too early to say but this season is going to be very important for the narrative. Lawrence needs to be significantly better than last year. I'm sure he will be better but how much better? 

There are a couple of posters who want to be first to designate him a bust but mindless homerism isn't much better. The latter is IMO fueled by the 'generational talent'-label.

The problem with that sentiment in that the phrase “generational talent” is almost always brought into the discussion by the person arguing against these “homers”, as you call them, typically as a crutch to support their rationale behind why they are interpreting his stats the way they do. 

If they are ever presented with a reason as to why certain stats can be explained(and not excused) they lean on the fact some media talking heads labeled him as generational talent during the draft.

Its not often you see these “homers” hanging on every stat trying to beat the “generational talent” drum.

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That descriptor is supposed to be there for a reason. If Lawrence is a new Andy Dalton or whatever barely adequate starter I would be very dissappointed considering what he was sold as. Wouldn't you?

Now, I think it's too early to say but this season is going to be very important for the narrative. Lawrence needs to be significantly better than last year. I'm sure he will be better but how much better? 

There are a couple of posters who want to be first to designate him a bust but mindless homerism isn't much better. The latter is IMO fueled by the 'generational talent'-label.

The problem with that sentiment in that the phrase “generational talent” is almost always brought into the discussion by the person arguing against these “homers”, as you call them, typically as a crutch to support their rationale behind why they are interpreting his stats the way they do. 

If they are ever presented with a reason as to why certain stats can be explained(and not excused) they lean on the fact some media talking heads labeled him as generational talent during the draft.

Its not often you see these “homers” hanging on every stat trying to beat the “generational talent” drum.

Not only that, but generational talent does not mean, nor has it ever meant every throw is perfect or flawless.

In talking about this overthrow, we are discussing one throw in twelve.  We are talking two in twelve if we add in the missed corner route in the end zone.

ChrisJagBoy has harped on the number of INTs Lawrence threw in his rookie year (17).

While that certainly was not ideal, it's also far from the worst a QB could muster.

Brett Favre had SEVEN (7) seasons with at least 18 or more INTs, and he managed a pretty good career.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...vrBr00.htm

Peyton Manning had FIVE (5)  such seasons https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

The problem with that sentiment in that the phrase “generational talent” is almost always brought into the discussion by the person arguing against these “homers”, as you call them, typically as a crutch to support their rationale behind why they are interpreting his stats the way they do. 

If they are ever presented with a reason as to why certain stats can be explained(and not excused) they lean on the fact some media talking heads labeled him as generational talent during the draft.

Its not often you see these “homers” hanging on every stat trying to beat the “generational talent” drum.

Not only that, but generational talent does not mean, nor has it ever meant every throw is perfect or flawless.

In talking about this overthrow, we are discussing one throw in twelve.  We are talking two in twelve if we add in the missed corner route in the end zone.

ChrisJagBoy has harped on the number of INTs Lawrence threw in his rookie year (17).

While that certainly was not ideal, it's also far from the worst a QB could muster.

Brett Favre had SEVEN (7) seasons with at least 18 or more INTs, and he managed a pretty good career.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...vrBr00.htm

Peyton Manning had FIVE (5)  such seasons https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm

Piggybacking on this INT narrative a bit. 

When a rookie QB is forced to operate from a playbook not suited to his strength and stage of development, and is playing from behind early and often in nearly every game, and is subsequently forced to take shots to come back on the scoreboard, this INT number appears less and less egregious. 

Context is SOOOO important when evaluating his rookie year. 
The kid was in a near impossible situation. 

This is the last time I'll post this, but I feel it's a very revealing subset of stats and folks are ignoring it to a degree.
I think the tweet below demonstrates TL's effectiveness/efficiency potential when he's not being asked to do too much, and I think he now has a staff around him that sees and understands this. 

https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w

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https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w


I don't worry about or espouse the "generational talent" thing. I don't care about that. It was always speculation.
I'm just trying to analyze what I'm seeing from this kid with a measured amount of offset applied due to the perfect storm of failure he was operating in last year. If that is "blind homerism" to some, so be it. But I feel like I'm being mildly optimistic at best.

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I agree with almost everything you wrote. If I have to be a little negative, I'm a little annoyed with our back ups. It's time to just let the back ups play the rest of the preseason and save the real jags for week 1 vs the redskins. I kind of wanted to see the jags win this game even though its preseason because they had a nice lead and ofcourse here comes luton in to help the other team. I dont mean to be overly down on this guy, but hes horrible. I'm watching other teams tonight and I see their back up qbs doing some decent things. Come on. This guy needs to get cut asap, and I realize hes the 3rd string, but hes putting other players jobs on the line too when he plays like that. I cant wait to see the starters all out in week 1, but it would be nice to find some reliable depth before the season starts. Qb 2 cj didnt look too good either. What a dumb interception before half forcing into that coverage.

Agreed completely.

I'm wondering how these poor performances will ompace the offseason strategu next year.

Mght we trade back to accumulate picks to try to get more depth?

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I miss the days of Quinn Gray and ole tractor man , those guys look wayyyy better than what we’ve seen out of our backups for years

Gray would be light years better than Luton.

It's a little early to develop a draft strategy, but personally, I wouldn't be inclined to trade back.  In addition to the normal 4 picks on Day 3, we have 2 additional picks.  Let's try to hit on those 6 picks and that will help with depth.  If you trade down, you are lowering the quality of your picks.  We need quality depth.

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You keep harping on this after you've been shown over and over again how it's not accurate. 

How many picks do you think he'll throw this season? 

Still waiting on your response in the other thread about his mistakes vs the browns BTW.

To summarize here. I claimed prior to his rookie year that he had accuracy issues and made poor decisions. He went on to lead the league in Picks, throw a sad 12 touchdown passes, got 7 or 8 games without scoring, and rarely eclipse 200 yards passing. 

Now in what world was I wrong? He made poor decisions, he definitely threw some laughable passes.. and his season reflected my view point to a tee, if not worse.

This is the hard truth you aren't willing to swallow (which is shocking consid.. nvm) If Lawrence went to the jets instead of us, and had the same season you would have the exact same opinion on him I do. The fact is, people are bias when it concerns something they care about. I'd bet my life right now that everyone on this board believes Zach Wilson is a bust, and he was awful don't get me wrong but he had many more "flashes" as you all like to call them than Trevor did last year. Problem is, Zach Wilson being good is irrelevant to you so you will use logic to determine if he's good.. but you rather base your opinions on emotion. 

As far as the Browns game goes, If you didn't see a few bad decisions and poor throws, you weren't watching the game. I'm not going to sit here and explain each play for you like a toddler, you saw the same thing I did. He did have some good plays, as expected. Just because I can visually see him make mistakes and I call them out rather than sweep them under the rug like yourself dosen't mean I don't think he's talented and can be capable of progressing. What I wont do is pretend that my own evaluation hasn't shown itself to be accurate throughout the course of his first season. 

Like it or not, it dosen't matter. You can say i'm wrong as many times as you want but unfortunately anyone with eyeballs can see I wasn't. I know our last sitting president made it popular to claim things happened that didn't, clearly he was a bad example on you.

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I just wanna say a few things:

Trevor looks better but didn't impress me. I still don't see that generational talent (yeah, yeah it is still only the preaseason, we'll see).
Travon Walker looks like the real deal, still, I wanna see that in regular season.
Only the preseason but I can already tell this offense looks really good (the plays, the scheme, the way they utilize players). Unlike last season when a lot of people were like "it's only the preseason they are not gonna show anything..." well, they didn't show anything worth crap all season.

Are you not one of the clowns that hates on me specifically because i've said that since the jets were in possesion of the #1 pick?

hello?

Hate on you? lmao, you are a clown, everyone knows it. 

And no, I didn't, wrong again, as usual.

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"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23

I just wanna say a few things:

Trevor looks better but didn't impress me. I still don't see that generational talent (yeah, yeah it is still only the preaseason, we'll see).
Travon Walker looks like the real deal, still, I wanna see that in regular season.
Only the preseason but I can already tell this offense looks really good (the plays, the scheme, the way they utilize players). Unlike last season when a lot of people were like "it's only the preseason they are not gonna show anything..." well, they didn't show anything worth crap all season.

Curious.  Do "generational talents" at QB never throw incompletions. interceptions, etc?

Do generational talents at QBs NOT require development?

Do generational talents at QB NOT require sufficient surrounding talent and coaching to start to look the part?

Not "jumping on you" per se, but I'm starting to wonder if the descriptor "generational talent" is affecting the analysis.

He risked some passes
He was slow to throw the football at least twice
He also had some accuracy issues

All QBs can have those from time to time, elite talent too but they don't have all of them for half the game (or half the time he plays).

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"Treyvon Wallet is elite run defender and better overall than Aidan Hutchinson" 11/11/23

Not only that, but generational talent does not mean, nor has it ever meant every throw is perfect or flawless.

In talking about this overthrow, we are discussing one throw in twelve.  We are talking two in twelve if we add in the missed corner route in the end zone.

ChrisJagBoy has harped on the number of INTs Lawrence threw in his rookie year (17).

While that certainly was not ideal, it's also far from the worst a QB could muster.

Brett Favre had SEVEN (7) seasons with at least 18 or more INTs, and he managed a pretty good career.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...vrBr00.htm

Peyton Manning had FIVE (5)  such seasons https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nnPe00.htm

Piggybacking on this INT narrative a bit. 

When a rookie QB is forced to operate from a playbook not suited to his strength and stage of development, and is playing from behind early and often in nearly every game, and is subsequently forced to take shots to come back on the scoreboard, this INT number appears less and less egregious. 

Context is SOOOO important when evaluating his rookie year. 
The kid was in a near impossible situation. 

This is the last time I'll post this, but I feel it's a very revealing subset of stats and folks are ignoring it to a degree.
I think the tweet below demonstrates TL's effectiveness/efficiency potential when he's not being asked to do too much, and I think he now has a staff around him that sees and understands this. 

https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w

---

https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w


I don't worry about or espouse the "generational talent" thing. I don't care about that. It was always speculation.
I'm just trying to analyze what I'm seeing from this kid with a measured amount of offset applied due to the perfect storm of failure he was operating in last year. If that is "blind homerism" to some, so be it. But I feel like I'm being mildly optimistic at best.

I hate the term 'generational talent'. It's doomed more than one potentially great QB from the get-go. Sort of like a musician being called the next Dylan or the next Miles Davis or the next Prince. Thankfully, he seems to have the temperament to be able to shut off all that noise and just grow as a player into whatever he's destined to become.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Blah, blah, blah

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Piggybacking on this INT narrative a bit. 

When a rookie QB is forced to operate from a playbook not suited to his strength and stage of development, and is playing from behind early and often in nearly every game, and is subsequently forced to take shots to come back on the scoreboard, this INT number appears less and less egregious. 

Context is SOOOO important when evaluating his rookie year. 
The kid was in a near impossible situation. 

This is the last time I'll post this, but I feel it's a very revealing subset of stats and folks are ignoring it to a degree.
I think the tweet below demonstrates TL's effectiveness/efficiency potential when he's not being asked to do too much, and I think he now has a staff around him that sees and understands this. 

https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w

---

https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status...9Us5B1Wr9w


I don't worry about or espouse the "generational talent" thing. I don't care about that. It was always speculation.
I'm just trying to analyze what I'm seeing from this kid with a measured amount of offset applied due to the perfect storm of failure he was operating in last year. If that is "blind homerism" to some, so be it. But I feel like I'm being mildly optimistic at best.

I hate the term 'generational talent'. 

Agree

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Blah, blah, blah

A very profound, and insightful argument! 

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Trevor’s first pre-season game, there were many more positives then negatives. We got a glimpse of what he can be. The receivers need to help him so he can be confident that they will catch the damn ball. I liked what I saw from him so far…

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"If you always do what you've always done, You'll always get what you always got"

The Jaguars spent more money in free agency this offseason than any team in NFL history ever has. -- I did not know this.

Jaguars’ free agent additions make early impression vs. Browns (news4jax.com)

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Blah, blah, blah

A very profound, and insightful argument! 

Unfortunately, probably as insightful as much of what I’m reading here! 

2 months from now we will have answers so all this back and forth is silly.

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Trevor showed us he has the tools to be a generational talent at the highest level. Hopefully he will prove his doubters wrong this season and develop into his game

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I guess some people are forgetting how many dropped passes there were every single game last season. Football is the ultimate team sport. You cant do anything as a qb if your wide receivers cant get separation and drop passes most of the time.

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A very profound, and insightful argument! 

Unfortunately, probably as insightful as much of what I’m reading here! 

2 months from now we will have answers so all this back and forth is silly.

Which is why I laughed.

None of us know.  To paraphrase Jim Mora "We think we know, but we don't know."

The most any of us can give are observations, theory and speculation.

If having actual, accurate, complete, precise knowledge about football were a prerequisite to discuss it on a message board, nobody but current players and coaches on the current teams could give any insight at all, and they wouldn't be inclined to do so for fear of losing whatever edge they may have.

That said, if you knew this thread was devoid of the desired level of insight you seek...

a)  Why read it?  

b)  Why even bother to post in the thread...even if only to say blah blah blah?

You aren't new to the board.  You've been on long enough to read these particular threads.  What gives?  Why waste your time?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Speculation is what happens in a forum. I get worn out by people wanting to settle discussion. That is why we have a message board.

Also of note... by its nature science is never settled. Science is a process of testing and learning.

Football stats are indicators and discussion points. Fans take up arguments to feel better about the time we invest in following a team.

Enjoy the ride. Tom Brady is a generational talent, everyone else is chasing.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Tlaw looked really good
I thought

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Did pedderson do a post match interview?

If so could someone please link it

Ty in advance

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Speculation is what happens in a forum. I get worn out by people wanting to settle discussion. That is why we have a message board.

Also of note... by its nature science is never settled. Science is a process of testing and learning.

Football stats are indicators and discussion points. Fans take up arguments to feel better about the time we invest in following a team.

Enjoy the ride. Tom Brady is a generational talent, everyone else is chasing.

I would also remind people that even Tom Brady threw 234 incompletions in the regular season last year.  Some on here expect Trevor never to have a bad throw.

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