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FreeAgent01 · 12-31-2015, 05:53 PM

Quote:His hands have improved. That's just a fact whether you choose to accept it or not.

Regardless of whether they have or not, the fact still remains that his hands are too much of a liability to carry the ball or catch the ball to play any defined role in the NFL. If you can't hold onto the rock, you can't play in this league, regardless of how athletic you are.

NCJag · 12-31-2015, 06:20 PM

Tell Adrien Peterson that. His hands are worse now than they were when he came into the league. 7 fumbles this year....37 fumbles in his career

Quote:Regardless of whether they have or not, the fact still remains that his hands are too much of a liability to carry the ball or catch the ball to play any defined role in the NFL. If you can't hold onto the rock, you can't play in this league, regardless of how athletic you are.

“Motivation alone is not enough. If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

Tuxedo · 12-31-2015, 06:28 PM

Quote:To be fair, i think that's any fan base. Bryce Brown was the next big thing, taking it back further, Samkon Gado, Ladell Betts, etc.

Jonas Gray like Denard can be a good roleplayer in the backfield. With Yeldon being the guy.

Now that's a name I haven't heard in while.

NCJag · 12-31-2015, 06:33 PM

Taking it further: Barry Foster. One great year, poof gone

Quote:To be fair, i think that's any fan base. Bryce Brown was the next big thing, taking it back further, Samkon Gado, Ladell Betts, etc.

Jonas Gray like Denard can be a good roleplayer in the backfield. With Yeldon being the guy.

“Motivation alone is not enough. If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

JagFanatic24 · 12-31-2015, 06:56 PM

Quote:Does this go back to you not understanding that stats aren't the only thing in a game?

He wasn't 'killing it'

Dumptruck · 12-31-2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:He wasn't 'killing it'

It is fine. Just accept that you either don't watch the games or don't understand football.

JagFanatic24 · 12-31-2015, 07:17 PM

Quote:It is fine. Just accept that you either don't watch the games or don't understand football.

Ok, he killed it

HolsterHusto · 12-31-2015, 09:16 PM

Quote:Ok, he killed it

Knew you'd come around.

lastonealive · 01-01-2016, 01:36 AM

Quote:I have no problem with Denard staying as the 3rd RB/guy who putting his hands up discouraging Nick Marshall from returning kickoffs

I swear he discourages him on very returnable kick offs

lastonealive · 01-01-2016, 01:38 AM

Denard should be running round a track. He's not very good at throwing or catching a ball. He's not particularly elusive either. However give him a hole and a straight line run he may one day run a big TD

**Jags02** · 01-01-2016, 03:38 PM

Quote:Name one person who had terrible hands and then developed them into great hands.

Allen Hurns

'02

FreeAgent01 · 01-01-2016, 06:32 PM

Quote:Allen Hurns

That's news to... everyone.

FreeAgent01 · 01-01-2016, 06:35 PM

Quote:Tell Adrien Peterson that. His hands are worse now than they were when he came into the league. 7 fumbles this year....37 fumbles in his career

Ok, we're comparing Denard Robinson's production to that of a first ballot hall of famer? AP has fumbled once every 72 carries for his career while Denard fumbles once every 31 carries. If AP fumbled 80 times for his career he still wouldn't have fumbled as often as Denard Robinson.

Name one starting running back in the league who has EVER fumbled once every 31 carries for a career.

NCJag · 01-01-2016, 07:23 PM

Since I'm in a giving mood, I'll give you two: Tony Dorsett and Franco Harris. Maybe you've heard of them? They each had NINETY fumbles in their careers.....and they seem like they turned out alright. They averaged a fumble once every 32-34 carries.

Quote:Ok, we're comparing Denard Robinson's production to that of a first ballot hall of famer? AP has fumbled once every 72 carries for his career while Denard fumbles once every 31 carries. If AP fumbled 80 times for his career he still wouldn't have fumbled as often as Denard Robinson.

Name one starting running back in the league who has EVER fumbled once every 31 carries for a career.

“Motivation alone is not enough. If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

NCJag · 01-01-2016, 07:26 PM

Oh....and Eric Dickerson had one fumble every 38 carries....

“Motivation alone is not enough. If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

FreeAgent01 · 01-01-2016, 08:14 PM

Quote:Since I'm in a giving mood, I'll give you two: Tony Dorsett and Franco Harris. Maybe you've heard of them? They each had NINETY fumbles in their careers.....and they seem like they turned out alright. They averaged a fumble once every 32-34 carries.

Quote:Oh....and Eric Dickerson had one fumble every 38 carries....

That's pretty good research by you. Thank you.

My point still remains that fumbling every 31 carries is very rare if you had to find 3 hall of famers from about 30 years ago and in a different era. I'm not sure your point that you are making is as good as you would think though considering you have just compared him to the 3 worst fumblers in NFL history and he still fumbles more than them.

Just for point of reference, David Wilson couldn't get out of Tom Coughlin's doghouse and had his snap count diminished as a result of his fumble issues and he didn't fumble as often as Denard.

I really don't understand the premise of this debate. Are we arguing that Denard's fumbling/catching issues aren't a big deal? Granted, its a small sample size, but his hands don't seem to be an aberration.

NCJag · 01-01-2016, 09:16 PM

In a four year period Tiki Barber averaged a fumble every 27 carries. The same Tom Coughlin you pointed out noticed what his problem was and gave him a chance to correct it. It is a small sample size. The guy has had 217 career carries. That's 10 games for Peterson who has 7 this year. Give the guy a chance to figure it out before writing his off. He isn't losing games for us...the defense is. We aren't expecting him to be a #1 back, just a change of pace. It IS a good point to make, because given how prevalent the running game was then compared to now shows how BAD their fumbling problems were and how much they hurt their teams. NINETY fumbles? I'm pretty sure David Wilson couldn't get out of the doghouse due to that whole neck injury thing. He had 3 career fumbles in 2 seasons. Not a really stellar example.

Quote:That's pretty good research by you. Thank you.

My point still remains that fumbling every 31 carries is very rare if you had to find 3 hall of famers from about 30 years ago and in a different era. I'm not sure your point that you are making is as good as you would think though considering you have just compared him to the 3 worst fumblers in NFL history and he still fumbles more than them.

Just for point of reference, David Wilson couldn't get out of Tom Coughlin's doghouse and had his snap count diminished as a result of his fumble issues and he didn't fumble as often as Denard.

I really don't understand the premise of this debate. Are we arguing that Denard's fumbling/catching issues aren't a big deal? Granted, its a small sample size, but his hands don't seem to be an aberration.

“Motivation alone is not enough. If you have an idiot and you motivate him,now you have a motivated idiot.” Jim Rohn

**Jags02** · 01-01-2016, 10:21 PM

Quote:That's news to... everyone.

Are you now everyone?

As a rookie Hurns was known for catching the ball with his body. The team approached him about wanting him to use his hands to catch the ball, and not his body, and the early results were frightening. He dropped pass after pass this preseason and some were starting to write him off. For that matter, Allen Robinson had so many drops this preseason that some started calling him Allen Dropinson. It was like a circus throwing to those two. But then once the regular season started they almost magically were able to catch virtually every pass. The two have been gold ever since.

'02

FreeAgent01 · 01-01-2016, 10:37 PM

Quote:Are you now everyone?

As a rookie Hurns was known for catching the ball with his body. The team approached him about wanting him to use his hands to catch the ball, and not his body, and the early results were frightening. He dropped pass after pass this preseason and some were starting to write him off. For that matter, Allen Robinson had so many drops this preseason that some started calling him Allen Dropinson. It was like a circus throwing to those two. But then once the regular season started they almost magically were able to catch virtually every pass. The two have been gold ever since.

Allen Hurns dropped 6 passes on 97 targets as a rookie. Slightly below average, but nobody ever said Hurns had bad hands. Allen Robinson only dropped 1 pass on 81 targets. Allen Robinson has never had drop issues prior to a few nasty drops in the preseason. There is a difference between a collective body of work indicating a trend vs a rough patch.

FreeAgent01 · 01-01-2016, 10:50 PM

Quote:In a four year period Tiki Barber averaged a fumble every 27 carries. The same Tom Coughlin you pointed out noticed what his problem was and gave him a chance to correct it. It is a small sample size. The guy has had 217 career carries. That's 10 games for Peterson who has 7 this year. Give the guy a chance to figure it out before writing his off. He isn't losing games for us...the defense is. We aren't expecting him to be a #1 back, just a change of pace. It IS a good point to make, because given how prevalent the running game was then compared to now shows how BAD their fumbling problems were and how much they hurt their teams. NINETY fumbles? I'm pretty sure David Wilson couldn't get out of the doghouse due to that whole neck injury thing. He had 3 career fumbles in 2 seasons. Not a really stellar example.

I'm not writing him off. I'm just saying that if he doesn't correct his issues, then he can't play on offense. I don't have confidence in him miraculously finding hands. In my personal opinion, it doesn't look like just a case of bad luck for DRob, it looks more like a case of just having bad hands. It's a very tried and true approach by most coaches in the NFL - ball security is job number one for a running back.

Tiki Barber was being torched by his own head coach and the national media on a daily basis for his fumble issues. Tiki also never had issues catching the ball out of the backfield.

I think you need to be refreshed on the David Wilson thing. The neck injury had nothing to do with being in the dog house. It ended his career. His second carry of his career he fumbled and Coughlin benched him for the rest of the game and barely played him for the rest of the season. Coughlin cited many times that Wilson had to work on ball security if he wanted to get onto the field. Wilson had a WELL documented issue with ball security coming out of Virginia Tech - it was the major knock on him at the draft. This was a 1st round pick with vastly superior running skills and athleticism compared to Denard who couldn't even sniff the field.