Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:What makes Beasley such a great pass rusher in your opinion?

How about for starters it was his actual position in college.

 

 

Quote:Fowler is a guy that doesn't do any one thing spectacular but he's a very good football player.
 

Usually when this is said about a prospect he ends up being average or worse in the NFL. This is football not basketball. Being a great overall ATHLETE (which is what you're talking about when you say he's not spectacular at anything but is a good player) but not having an actual stand out trait about you usually results in you being a special teams player. Vic Beasley is a superb pass rusher who can drop into coverage and has potential to be good at setting the edge. Period. Fowler you're questioning whether his real position is an every down edge rusher at all. If we're looking for the best pass rusher in the draft to put at LEO, it's clearly Beasley and, once again, it's not even close. He has the highest floor at the position, and maybe even the highest ceiling.

Quote:The jags got their sacks last year with average personnel like Andre Branch. You put (arguably) the best athlete in this draft class (Beasely) in this defense, and you will see the first DROY the Jags have ever had. Beasely was built for our defense. The dude is a stud.

Literally, he was built to play LEO. If you asked the forces that be to sculpt the perfect pass rusher for Gus Bradley's defense Vic Beasley is what they would give you. Last year there were a couple people who thought Beasley would be the perfect fit in our defense even with his questionable measurables. The fact that he actually came in at 6'3'' 246lbs just justifies taking him in the top 3.

Quote:I wouldn't either. But I do see a favorable comparison between the two guys. Motor, aggressiveness, nastiness,neither are/were the most refined pass rushers but play with an attitude.


I like both Beasley and Fowler but I definitely do not love either guy as much as some people do.


Beasley in my opinion is completely reliant on his explosive first step to win 1v1, if he doesn't win off his initial burst he usually gets beat. Even when his get off is great he can often times be pushed up field by athletic OT's who are athletic enough to slide out and deal with the speed rush. He's shown a decent up and under move, works very well against less athletic OT's, and tries a spin occasionally but its not very effective. In run support he's average while playing at DE and doesn't play up to his 35 reps at the combine. He also doesn't disengage very well and can get moved. What worries me the most about Beasley is his reliance on that first step to win because when it gets shut down he doesn't seem to have much else. Obviously the OT'S in the NFL are pretty athletic for the most part.


Fowler is a guy that doesn't do any one thing spectacular but he's a very good football player. What I like the most about Fowler are his hands. He uses them well even though quite frankly I don't think he knows how to win with them. It looks like he has strong hands but like I said he rarely wins 1v1 with a pass rush move so he relies on strength and shedding the OT. While Fowler only did 19 reps at the combine I would say he plays stronger than that. Lastly what I really like about Fowler is his nastiness, it looks like he wants to hurt people when he's playing the game. I don't get that same feeling from Beasley or Gregory. What scares me about Fowler is that he doesn't win 1v1 with great hands or pass rush moves very much.


IMO both guys have bust potential just as much as everybody else in the draft. I think it comes down to projecting into the future. Most people have their preference already and I don't think much is gonna change that.


I like Fowler Jr more than Beasley based solely on what I think Fowler can and will turn in to. But I completely understand why many like Beasley as well.


This is just from watching cut ups of the guys from Draftbreakdown. I don't pretend to know everything, I'm just an armchair scout like the rest of you guys.

 

Great post, but reading it makes me think maybe we should go an entirely different direction if there is another player with less bust potential, like Amari Cooper.  

Quote:Well hopefully we get Williams or a trade down to where we get some additional 1st and just take Dupree.

 

That would be nice.  I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Quote:He has everything you want except great length. Best overall athlete in the class, great first step explosion, bends at damn near 45°, shows several good counter moves, shows the ability to learn/adjust as the game develops, has good hand usage, will get overpowered sometimes but doesn't get completely swallowed up like Ray does.

 

Basically read what Hank says here as he hits all of the same points, but with visual proof that I got a warning for posting in here. 

 

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2015/3/28/8...ic-beasley

 

You got a warning for posting vines? 

Quote:You got a warning for posting vines?

I guessing not crediting the link on videos and charts.

Quote:You got a warning for posting vines? 

The gyfcats...yeah. Not vines.

FWIW, I love Beasley as a prospect. And Sigmund Bloom is absolutely the best football mind I have ever met. If he gives a stamp of approval, then I feel 10x better about taking Beasley.

 

Quote:KYjaggy
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KYjaggy" data-cid="462284" data-time="1427769427">

He has everything you want except great length. Best overall athlete in the class, great first step explosion, bends at damn near 45°, shows several good counter moves, shows the ability to learn/adjust as the game develops, has good hand usage, will get overpowered sometimes but doesn't get completely swallowed up like Ray does.

 

Basically read what Hank says here as he hits all of the same points, but with visual proof that I got a warning for posting in here. 

 

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2015/3/28/8304431/2015-nfl-draft-leo-fits-and-vic-beasley' title="External link">http://www.bigcatcou...and-vic-beasley</a>

</blockquote>

Quote:So need wise we need a pure pass rusher to improve the defence. We're being mocked pretty much across the board with Fowler who I really like.

 

I'm by now means a brilliant evaluator, but from what I've seen and taking on board all the analysis I've read, it seems as though Beasley is a better pure pass rusher, although limited in the run game where as Fowler is pretty much above average at most things while not being incredible at anything specifically. Obviously due to his size he's by far the best edge rusher against the run.

 

I guess my question is, are we more in need of a pure pass rusher (Beasley) who is more likely to get double digit sacks, or what many, including myself believe to be a better and more versatile LEO (Fowler Jr)? And I purely mean from a need perspective.

 

Would also be good to hear what others perceive their strengths and weaknesses to be.

 

Also... given we're so in need of an elite pass rusher, are people in agreement that it would need to take a substantial offer to get us to trade down, especially out of the top 10 where I feel there is a pretty large drop off in talent

 

You know I've changed my response (edit) a few times because I'm not certain.  I mean I think most would have Fowler Jr above Vic on a board but I think it depends on the GMs gut feeling about the guy & how he plans on using him in his system.  Either way I would take Leo Williams over either.

I really like this post about Fowler Jr on ESPN 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/...ent-styles

 

"Dante Fowler Jr. (Florida)

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">The 6-3, 261-pound Fowler also lined up at several spots while compiling 8.5 sacks and an SEC-high 37 pressures (hurries plus knockdowns) in 2014, but he’s going to be a defensive end in the NFL because he’s too light to hold up at tackle.

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">Fowler seems to have the whole package of pass-rush moves. He recorded four of his sacks using power moves (bull rush or swim moves) and 4.5 using finesse moves (spin moves, speed rushes). He was one of only five players ranked in the top 15 draft prospects at end, tackle, and linebacker to have at least four sacks using power moves and four using finesse moves."

37 pressures is very high, I knew he always was chasing QBs even tho it didnt end in a sack but that is more then I thought, also the fact that he got his sacks splits on different moves, shows is isnt a one trick pony, this is the guy I think we really need to draft would be perfect in Gus defense.

Quote:I really like this post about Fowler Jr on ESPN 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/...ent-styles

 

"Dante Fowler Jr. (Florida)

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">The 6-3, 261-pound Fowler also lined up at several spots while compiling 8.5 sacks and an SEC-high 37 pressures (hurries plus knockdowns) in 2014, but he’s going to be a defensive end in the NFL because he’s too light to hold up at tackle.

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">Fowler seems to have the whole package of pass-rush moves. He recorded four of his sacks using power moves (bull rush or swim moves) and 4.5 using finesse moves (spin moves, speed rushes). He was one of only five players ranked in the top 15 draft prospects at end, tackle, and linebacker to have at least four sacks using power moves and four using finesse moves."

37 pressures is very high, I knew he always was chasing QBs even tho it didnt end in a sack but that is more then I thought, also the fact that he got his sacks splits on different moves, shows is isnt a one trick pony, this is the guy I think we really need to draft would be perfect in Gus defense.

 

the thing i like most about fowler is his motor. all that guy wants to do is destroy whoever has the ball. any player that has even moderate talent and that kind of motor is always something nice to have on your team. 

Quote:I really like this post about Fowler Jr on ESPN 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/...ent-styles

 

"Dante Fowler Jr. (Florida)

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">The 6-3, 261-pound Fowler also lined up at several spots while compiling 8.5 sacks and an SEC-high 37 pressures (hurries plus knockdowns) in 2014, but he’s going to be a defensive end in the NFL because he’s too light to hold up at tackle.

<p style="font-family:Georgia, 'Times New Roman', Times, serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(51,51,51);">Fowler seems to have the whole package of pass-rush moves. He recorded four of his sacks using power moves (bull rush or swim moves) and 4.5 using finesse moves (spin moves, speed rushes). He was one of only five players ranked in the top 15 draft prospects at end, tackle, and linebacker to have at least four sacks using power moves and four using finesse moves."

37 pressures is very high, I knew he always was chasing QBs even tho it didnt end in a sack but that is more then I thought, also the fact that he got his sacks splits on different moves, shows is isnt a one trick pony, this is the guy I think we really need to draft would be perfect in Gus defense.

But wait, I read somewhere that he can't "dip and bend."

Quote:I really like this post about Fowler Jr on ESPN
<a class="bbc_url" href='http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/61220/potential-jaguars-pass-rushers-have-different-styles'>http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/61220/potential-jaguars-pass-rushers-have-different-styles</a>


"Dante Fowler Jr. (Florida)

The 6-3, 261-pound Fowler also lined up at several spots while compiling 8.5 sacks and an SEC-high 37 pressures (hurries plus knockdowns) in 2014, but he’s going to be a defensive end in the NFL because he’s too light to hold up at tackle.


Fowler seems to have the whole package of pass-rush moves. He recorded four of his sacks using power moves (bull rush or swim moves) and 4.5 using finesse moves (spin moves, speed rushes). He was one of only five players ranked in the top 15 draft prospects at end, tackle, and linebacker to have at least four sacks using power moves and four using finesse moves."

37 pressures is very high, I knew he always was chasing QBs even tho it didnt end in a sack but that is more then I thought, also the fact that he got his sacks splits on different moves, shows is isnt a one trick pony, this is the guy I think we really need to draft would be perfect in Gus defense.

I watch every Florida game, he might not sack the QB on every play but it seems like almost every play he terrorizes the QB, gets in the back field and and gets the QB out of the pocket on almost every play. He also stays full speed for 4 quarters and seems like he doesnt get tired. This is one of the reasons why I like Fowler more than Beasley though but would be ok with either.

At the end of the day, I don't think we could go wrong with Fowler, Beasley or Williams. I think all 3 of them have loads of potential and would do good in our defense.

Quote:But wait, I read somewhere that he can't "dip and bend."

 

i believe i read that too and the guy who said that on this board clearly gets paid a lot more than we do for his "evaluations" of players... so........ bahahaha jk jk

The Fowler vs Beasley debate is a quality topic.    If Williams is off the board at 3 the Jags could quite realistically be staring down this decision. 

 

Who knows which guy ends up higher on Dave's big board, but I think either would help us. 

 

I've only seen a few cut-ups, but I'm leaning towards Beasley - because his body movement when facing an OT looks like what we want in a LEO.

He gets lower, he has lots of bend and he's very disruptive with his hands. I saw a couple of nice twitch moves to the inside of his blocker as well that looked like something that would develop well for an NFL pass rusher.

I know Fowler is a different type of player and a bit more of a hybrid with intriguing versatility  - but Beasley just looks like he could be plugged into that LEO rotation and contribute well in year one - possibly taking over the larger share of the snaps there by season's end. 

Again - all just quick reaction from a guy that doesn't watch tons of college ball - but that's my initial take on these two players as potential #3 picks. 

Quote:The Fowler vs Beasley debate is a quality topic. If Williams is off the board at 3 the Jags could quite realistically staring down this decision.


Who knows which guy ends up higher on Dave's big board, but I think either would help us.


I've only seen a few cut-ups, but I'm leaning towards Beasley - because his body movement when facing an OT looks for like what we want in a LEO.

He gets lower, he has lots of bend and he's very disruptive with his hands. I saw a couple of nice twitch moves to the inside of his blocker as well that looked like something that would develop well for an NFL pass rusher.

I know Fowler is a different type of player and a bit more of a hybrid with intriguing versatility - but Beasley just looks like he could be plugged into that LEO rotation and contribute well in year one - possibly taking over the larger share of the snaps there by season's end.

Again - all just quick reaction from a guy that doesn't watch tons of college ball - but that's my initial take on these two players as potential #3 picks.

Even with Williams on the board its quite realistically the Jags are staring down this decision.

Quote:But wait, I read somewhere that he can't "dip and bend."

Where did it say he had the ability to dip and bend there? 

Quote:Where did it say he had the ability to dip and bend there? 

 

Andre Branch *could* dip and bend, according to Daniel Jeremiah and the Mike Mayock's of the world.

 

Not sure how accurate these TV scouts are anyway.  It will ultimately come down to whether our defensive line coach can improve their games.

 

I say we should take:

 

Williams, Cooper

 

then there's a gap....

 

then probably Beasley > Fowler

I like them both, but I am warming to the idea of taking White or Cooper instead if Williams is gone. I think those two are much better receivers than these two are pass rushers. I have a good bit of doubt as to whether Beasley or Fowler can be dominant pass rushers, whereas I think either receiver can be a star. I know we don't necessarily need a receiver and pass rushers are more valuable, but still, I feel there is more value at the receiver spot...unless we trade down, at which point we could potentially get Gregory or Dupree.