Quote:I think you have an inflated opinion of your opinion.
Obviously - there are ways to spark production with the limited tools available - and most of them - like the 2 minute offense and constant use of a spread formation are just not sustainable.
The kid has to learn how to be an NFL QB that makes decisions in a hurried pocket at some point. I like that that they've not sold out to smoke and mirrors completely and they've made the kid play some more balanced football in many games - even if he's failed. I think the film from this year will be a valuable learning tool for him.
Because he can only learn that when there are 8 or 9 guys in the box and Robinson is getting run over in pass protection?
The change that happened for Bortles from the early games to the recent games is that opposing coaches recognized that the Jaguars have massive pass protection problems, and the Jaguars have exacerbated that by playing schemes that allow the other team to pin Bortles in and get free rushers on him.
It's clear that the coaching staff of this team has a really hard time making adjustments from what happens after halftime in every game, this scheme problem seems to be just another one of those problems.
Quote:Great football minds on the board would only be 2 games worse than the great football minds on the sideline.
Yeah record wise but there is a lot more going on than just what's on the field
Quote:Because he can only learn that when there are 8 or 9 guys in the box and Robinson is getting run over in pass protection?
The change that happened for Bortles from the early games to the recent games is that opposing coaches recognized that the Jaguars have massive pass protection problems, and the Jaguars have exacerbated that by playing schemes that allow the other team to pin Bortles in and get free rushers on him.
It's clear that the coaching staff of this team has a really hard time making adjustments from what happens after halftime in every game, this scheme problem seems to be just another one of those problems.
Bortles has an obvious issue with making his reads. I think that that Fisch has been trying to create ways to bring him along in this area.
Earlier in the year, they tried running 2 receivers and a TE to one quadrant of the field so that he could read three receivers quickly without scanning widely. Lately they've used motion and formation to draw safeties away from a primary receiver giving him a probable one on one to come back to.
Selling out to a bunch of spread as you suggest isn't going to help him in this area and it would be sniffed out by opponents just as readily after a couple of games.
Anytime a scheme isn't working it's easy to say "they should do this instead." I think they'd still have issues executing anything you draw up because of the youth and inexperience on the field. Players failing in one-on-ones is still going to happen if you spread them out. Bortles will still get pressured up the middle sometimes regardless of formation. Receivers will still drop balls. Bortles will still throw picks and miss open receivers.
This is also part of the issue with "halftime adjustments." When you are already bleeding a stone to get production with a dumbed-down playbook, it's pretty tough to switch it up at halftime. There are very few (if any) options available.
How many times have you seen this offense fail at executing a simple quick slant? That looks a lot more like youthful lack of execution than scheme issues to me.
Quote:Bortles has an obvious issue with making his reads. I think that that Fisch has been trying to create ways to bring him along in this area.
Earlier in the year, they tried running 2 receivers and a TE to one quadrant of the field so that he could read three receivers quickly without scanning widely. Lately they've used motion and formation to draw safeties away from a primary receiver giving him a probable one on one to come back to.
Selling out to a bunch of spread as you suggest isn't going to help him in this area and it would be sniffed out by opponents just as readily after a couple of games.
Anytime a scheme isn't working it's easy to say "they should do this instead." I think they'd still have issues executing anything you draw up because of the youth and inexperience on the field. Players failing in one-on-ones is still going to happen if you spread them out. Bortles will still get pressured up the middle sometimes regardless of formation. Receivers will still drop balls. Bortles will still throw picks and miss open receivers.
This is also part of the issue with "halftime adjustments." When you are already bleeding a stone to get production with a dumbed-down playbook, it's pretty tough to switch it up at halftime. There are very few (if any) options available.
How many times have you seen this offense fail at executing a simple quick slant? That looks a lot more like youthful lack of execution than scheme issues to me.
Here's the interesting thing. When you spread the field out it gets EASIER to make the reads because the defense will have to spread out and show who is covering. If they decide to leave guys uncovered at the snap you throw quickscreens and let guys run for five or six yards.
When you play with everyone bunched in you get safeties, DBs, and LBs in the same area and some of them may or may not drop back or cover areas, etc.
I think you're right about the team not having any well it can easily go to, but I also think part of the problem is that the staff thinks it needs to stick with something and make it work.
Maybe the scheme Fisch wants to run starts working with enough sacks on Bortles' back, but I don't really see a reason that the team has to get Bortles killed every game just because Fisch wants to run a certain scheme.
Norv Turner makes Teddy look good and has helped Teddy to a 5-4 record.
Blake is better than Teddy so a really good OC can help you improve a lot.
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Maybe the scheme Fisch wants to run starts working with enough sacks on Bortles' back, but I don't really see a reason that the team has to get Bortles killed every game just because Fisch wants to run a certain scheme.
Fair point. I think youth rears it's ugly head again here as well, though. Whether they should have been more diverse with the formation is debatable. How much these guys (up front) could fit on their plate is likely
very finite, however.
Quote:Norv Turner makes Teddy look good and has helped Teddy to a 5-4 record.
Blake is better than Teddy so a really good OC can help you improve a lot.
We'd all love to have Turner as our OC.
But let's not kid ourselves about the youth on our offensive depth chart compared to the Vikings.
Quote:We'd all love to have Turner as our OC.
But let's not kid ourselves about the youth on our offensive depth chart compared to the Vikings.
Dude... Their line is really bad too. I think they have a bunch of second stringers starting due to injuries. Not to mention they have no WR help since Patterson sucks and Jennings is old.
Quote:Dude... Their line is really bad too. I think they have a bunch of second stringers starting due to injuries. Not to mention they have no WR help since Patterson sucks and Jennings is old.
And they don't have their starting RB since Peterson was suspended.
AND!!!! Don't forget they lost Toby to us.
Quote:Dude... Their line is really bad too. I think they have a bunch of second stringers starting due to injuries. Not to mention they have no WR help since Patterson sucks and Jennings is old.
And Bortles has had WR help? Shorts dropping 25% of his targets and a rotating cast of banged up rookies? Very helpful.
There's not a player on that vikings O-line with less than 3 years NFL exp. They aren't learning on the fly.
Quote:And Bortles has had WR help? Shorts dropping 25% of his targets and rotating cast of banged up rookies?
There's not a player on that O-line with less than 3 years NFL exp.
I think you might overstate the WR issue.
Robinson was one of the best WR performers for a rookie in this decade. If he hadn't been injured he had a significant chance to reach a thousand yards.
Still I think both you and Frailbones have a point. The Jaguars have youth and inexperience, but their biggest issues along the o-line haven't been in their ability to block a guy in front of them, the biggest issues have been in assignment recognition and blitz pickup in the backfield by Denard.
That's why I keep harping on formation. You do certain things and you can really simplify the pass reads AND pass-rush pick-up. Not to mention I think Denard would do better if the defense were forced to spread out. He's been great this year at hitting the hole and making yards after contact.
Quote:And Bortles has had WR help? Shorts dropping 25% of his targets and a rotating cast of banged up rookies? Very helpful.
There's not a player on that vikings O-line with less than 3 years NFL exp. They aren't learning on the fly.
Yes but just because they have NFL experience, it doesn't make them better than rookies. Brewster had NFL experience and Bowanko ended up being better. I do agree their line is probably better than ours right now but thats not saying much considering how bad ours is right now.
My whole point was that the OC matters a lot. It can change everything. I was using Minnesota as an example because they have very little offensive weapons with a bad oline and a rookie QB yet they are still winning games.
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My whole point was that the OC matters a lot. It can change everything. I was using Minnesota as an example because they have very little offensive weapons with a bad oline and a rookie QB yet they are still winning games.
I agree the OC matters a lot. I just have a hard time writing off one that was severely handicapped by poor play and youth.
Maybe Fisch sucks. I'm not certain. I just don't think he's had much of a fighting chance at being productive thus far.
Quote:I agree the OC matters a lot. I just have a hard time writing off one that was severely handicapped by poor play and youth.
Maybe Fisch sucks. I'm not certain. I just don't think he's had much of a fighting chance at being productive thus far.
A lot of empirical evidence points to Fisch being terrible.
Bortles has seemingly been chained down. Gabbert played worse under Fisch than in 2011-2012. Henne looked as bad this season as I've ever seen any QB look. Shorts has regressed. Marcedes has been as invisible as ever.
The only guy who seems to have benefitted is Hurns, who played for Fisch multiple seasons.
Maybe it's coincidence, but it looks more likely that Fisch just keeps pounding harder when the square peg doesn't fit in the round hole.
Quote:A lot of empirical evidence points to Fisch being terrible.
Bortles has seemingly been chained down. Gabbert played worse under Fisch than in 2011-2012. Henne looked as bad this season as I've ever seen any QB look. Shorts has regressed. Marcedes has been as invisible as ever.
The only guy who seems to have benefitted is Hurns, who played for Fisch multiple seasons.
Maybe it's coincidence, but it looks more likely that Fisch just keeps pounding harder when the square peg doesn't fit in the round hole.
I think that's all pretty weak "evidence." When you are using Gabbert or Henne to illustrate anything about an OC - you're in some pretty nebulous territory.
And you're wrong on Lewis. He's played 5 games. 3 were good. The other two were his first games back from injury and playing with Bortles.
Quote:I think that's all pretty weak "evidence." When you are using Gabbert or Henne to illustrate anything about an OC - you're in some pretty nebulous territory.
And you're wrong on Lewis. He's played 5 games. 3 were good. The other two were his first games back from injury and playing with Bortles.
Call it weak if you think so, but it dovetails into the rest of what we've seen as this regime continues to show regression with experience.
Quote:Norv Turner makes Teddy look good and has helped Teddy to a 5-4 record.
Blake is better than Teddy so a really good OC can help you improve a lot.
Agreed with this.
Quote:We'd all love to have Turner as our OC.
But let's not kid ourselves about the youth on our offensive depth chart compared to the Vikings.
The Vikings line sucks, and they have less talent on their offense than we do.
The difference? Much better OC.
Quote:Yeah record wise but there is a lot more going on than just what's on the field
Well, whatever might be going on OFF the field, on the field is the end result and that's 2-11.
Like he said, with all the (great?) football knowledge the coaches on the sidelines have, on and off the field, they only have 2 more wins then all the non-football minds in here would have and that's a pretty disturbing fact, no matter how you want to look at it.
You are what your record says you are and right now the Jags have only been able to drop a deuce on the win column this season.
You can make all the excuses/reasons as to why, but a deuce in the win column after 13 games this season is a FACT and it's there for all to see.
Quote:Call it weak if you think so, but it dovetails into the rest of what we've seen as this regime continues to show regression with experience.
Exactly. This is what few want to admit. Theres no issue with the talent being brought in. Theres an issue with the development of this talent once it gets some reps. Bortles has regressed. Its not a question of defenses figuring him out. Gabbert wasn't any good in preseason or his early starts. He was just bad. Bortles on the other hand was not just good early but he was practically flawless. Then the more time that went on that he was under Fisch's influence, the more & more he's reverted into a Chad Henne lookalike.
Quote:Exactly. This is what few want to admit. Theres no issue with the talent being brought in. Theres an issue with the development of this talent once it gets some reps. Bortles has regressed. Its not a question of defenses figuring him out. Gabbert wasn't any good in preseason or his early starts. He was just bad. Bortles on the other hand was not just good early but he was practically flawless. Then the more time that went on that he was under Fisch's influence, the more & more he's reverted into a Chad Henne lookalike.
Agreed with the first part. The talent being brought in is pretty good with a couple of misses, but everyone makes those. The statement about development is hard to justify...don't you have to give him more than a dozen games? The common rule of thumb is that a QB reaches his potential after his 50th start. We're a long way from that yet.