This narrative of a rookie QB regressing is hilarious.
Inconsistency is the typical storyline on rookies. Especially quarterbacks. Identifying trends in a 22 year old QB's performance over a few games in his rookie career is a pointless endeavor. You'll not reach any concrete conclusions.
Comparing him to Henne is even more hilarious, IMO. Dear Lord, folks must be desperate around here lately. I hate watching this offense struggle to execute too, and perhaps Fisch is a bigger part of the problem than I maintain, perhaps not….
…but comparing Bortles to Henne??? Really? LOL. You've just got to be blind.
Quote:This narrative of a rookie QB regressing is hilarious.
Inconsistency is the typical storyline on rookies. Especially quarterbacks. Identifying trends in a 22 year old QB's performance over a few games in his rookie career is a pointless endeavor. You'll not reach any concrete conclusions.
Comparing him to Henne is even more hilarious, IMO. Dear Lord, folks must be desperate around here lately. I hate watching this offense struggle to execute too, and perhaps Fisch is a bigger part of the problem than I maintain, perhaps not….
…but comparing Bortles to Henne??? Really? LOL. You've just got to be blind.
I'm not saying BB5 is Henne, but just to play devil's advocate I looked up Henne's stats and compared them to BB5's...
They are very similar...
Yes, BB5 is a rookie, yes the O-Line stinks, yes his WRs are rookies.
But it cannot be denied a couple things:
1. BB5's production has decreased now compared to his first 4 games.
2. Henne's 2013 season and BB5's 2014 are similar in terms of YPA, Completion%, and QB rating...
Yes, he's a rookie. Yeah, the O-line stinks, yeah the WRs aren't world beaters and they are rookies...
But you know something that's been constant? The coaching staff and the offensive philosophy.
But yes, he's a rookie. The O-Line stinks. The WRs are rookies...
Quote:I'm not saying BB5 is Henne, but just to play devil's advocate I looked up Henne's stats and compared them to BB5's...
They are very similar...
Yes, BB5 is a rookie, yes the O-Line stinks, yes his WRs are rookies.
But it cannot be denied a couple things:
1. BB5's production has decreased now compared to his first 4 games.
2. Henne's 2013 season and BB5's 2014 are similar in terms of YPA, Completion%, and QB rating...
Yes, he's a rookie. Yeah, the O-line stinks, yeah the WRs aren't world beaters and they are rookies...
But you know something that's been constant? The coaching staff and the offensive philosophy.
But yes, he's a rookie. The O-Line stinks. The WRs are rookies...
My post wasn't directed at you specifically, and I can sum up my issues by pointing out the bolded portion above --
-- and then reiterating that 4 game samples of rookie QB stats are absolutely meaningless to me.
I think that analyzing bits and pieces of a rookie QBs first season and attributing the failures to an OC is almost as fruitful as using the numbers from your electric bill to play the lottery and expecting a result.
Path to success according to some.
1. Trade picks to move up in draft to draft a QB.
2. Fire HC 2/3 of the way into rookie season.
3. Hire new HC and assistants.
4. Fire HC and assistants.
5. Hire new HC and assistants.
5. Give high drafted QB 1 more year with 4th HC and OC in 3 years.
6. Trade failed QB and draft a new QB.
7. Rookie QB struggles while playing with 5 other rookies.
8.Fire HC and OC..........
How can this NOT be a recipe for success.
Quote:This narrative of a rookie QB regressing is hilarious.
Inconsistency is the typical storyline on rookies. Especially quarterbacks. Identifying trends in a 22 year old QB's performance over a few games in his rookie career is a pointless endeavor. You'll not reach any concrete conclusions.
Comparing him to Henne is even more hilarious, IMO. Dear Lord, folks must be desperate around here lately. I hate watching this offense struggle to execute too, and perhaps Fisch is a bigger part of the problem than I maintain, perhaps not….
…but comparing Bortles to Henne??? Really? LOL. You've just got to be blind.
You're missing the point.
No one is saying that Bortles capability is that of Henne. But other than late in that Giants game, Bortles over the last 4-6 weeks or so has reminded me a lot of Henne's play. I think it has a lot to do with the association with the Coordinator and the longer he's under that influence the more bad things thats going on.
You and hb seem to not want to throw Fisch under the bus though, so - so be it.
Quote:
You and hb seem to not want to throw Fisch under the bus
Your choice of words is telling.
Replacing the oc and dc would only be putting lipstick on a pig. Putting cologne on instead of bathing. Just let Gus have his magical turnaround year 3 and fire him after he fails. A lot of people are not convinced of the obvious yet for some mind blowing reason.
Quote:But other than late in that Giants game, Bortles over the last 4-6 weeks or so has reminded me a lot of Henne's play.
Bortles made three or four plays last week, including the TD to Hurns, that Henne couldn't dream of making.
Quote:My post wasn't directed at you specifically, and I can sum up my issues by pointing out the bolded portion above --
-- and then reiterating that 4 game samples of rookie QB stats are absolutely meaningless to me.
I think that analyzing bits and pieces of a rookie QBs first season and attributing the failures to an OC is almost as fruitful as using the numbers from your electric bill to play the lottery and expecting a result.
Yeah, I knew you weren't referring to me. Just playing devils advocate for the sake of a discussion.
Look, let's face facts, the ENTIRE JUNGLE is in agreement with about 75-85% of what's going on this season. There would be very little discussion, if we didn't discuss the parts we all disagree on. Agreements are boring and usually wide up with threads that are like maybe 2 pages at most and then die.
With that in mind, I'll reference you to the bolded part of your reply. A couple things... I'm not analyzing bits and pieces. I'm trying to articulate (probably very poorly) that the trend for BB5 this year his not looking good. His first 4 games can be considered his baseline. What we see now is less then what we saw at the beginning. I'm not cherry picking. I'm seeing a QB that has his ups and downs, but as of late, he's been less successfull then at the beginning. That is an issue. Yes, he's a rookie, we all know that. But we should be expecting progress as an overall trend. Based on statistics and the eye test, he's not improving over time. And it can be argued by some, not me, that he's regressed.
Secondly, I said 3 times that there are multiple deficiencies/weaknesses that are causing problems with the offense. Did you miss it? Let me re-state them... Rookie QB, horrible O-Line, Rookie WRs. I said this 3 times, conceding that these are all issues.
The goal is to get better right? It can be argued that we are not getting better on the offense. Some of it is because of our players (AS I'VE ACKNOWLEDGED), but it's not all on the players. There are things coaches are responsible for that they should be held accountable for. To give them a pass, I think, is shortsighted... You are then only looking at half of the problem...
Because even if you bring in talent, that talent will never be maximized if your coaching (development of players, game planning, play calling) is among the weakest in the league.
Quote:I'd like to think we have both (including Gus as part of the DC package).
Nobody could have taken this offense and made it legit.
Rookies
QB
WR1
WR2
WR3
C
G
Year 2
RB1 - transitioned from QB
LT
Injury replacement
TE - Harbor
RT - insert name here
THE ABOVE SCENARIO WAS JUST WAY TO CRAZY TO HAVE ANY EXPECTATIONS.
bingo I dont know why more people dont understand this
The defensive started off bad but they got much better
We are top in the NFL in sacks, last time we were up there was at least 10 years ago
We are top 5 in redzone defense too
We just need to get a few more players on defense and it could be Seattle level
Quote:Replacing the oc and dc would only be putting lipstick on a pig. Putting cologne on instead of bathing. Just let Gus have his magical turnaround year 3 and fire him after he fails. A lot of people are not convinced of the obvious yet for some mind blowing reason.
I get that, but I think I'd rather at least make an effort - with trying to upgrade those 2 than just keeping status quo for another full year. Keeping status quo could have more reprocussions than not, as the thought of Bortles with another full year of Fisch in his 48 game developmental period scares the hell outta me. Do you really want to chance that?
I think Bradley would look better as a head coach with better OC/ DC/ ST's coordinators around him. Perfect? No, but better? Yes.
Quote:I get that, but I think I'd rather at least make an effort - with trying to upgrade those 2 than just keeping status quo for another full year. Keeping status quo could have more reprocussions than not, as the thought of Bortles with another full year of Fisch in his 48 game developmental period scares the hell outta me. Do you really want to chance that?
I think Bradley would look better as a head coach with better OC/ DC/ ST's coordinators around him. Perfect? No, but better? Yes.
Yeah but changing offensive philosophies after one year with a 1 year vet qb can't be good. A dc I wouldn't mind changing because I don't think that would affect and stagnant learning the like the offense would go under. It took Marqise Lee damn near the whole year just to feel comfortable and learn this system. Imagine what learning another would do to him after getting familiar with this one.
Bortles needs to only worry about fundamentals and refining his mechanics not learning another playbook. Now after next year when Bradley falls on his face you go get you some real professionals in here to run this program. This year was enough for me to fire him but Khan is gonna give him another so the fans they don't give a damn about will have to bite the bullet another miserable year hearing Gus' clichés.
Quote:Yeah but changing offensive philosophies after one year with a 1 year vet qb can't be good. A dc I wouldn't mind changing because I don't think that would affect and stagnant learning the like the offense would go under. It took Marqise Lee damn near the whole year just to feel comfortable and learn this system. Imagine what learning another would do to him after getting familiar with this one.
Bortles needs to only worry about fundamentals and refining his mechanics not learning another playbook. Now after next year when Bradley falls on his face you go get you some real professionals in here to run this program. This year was enough for me to fire him but Khan is gonna give him another so the fans they don't give a damn about will have to bite the bullet another miserable year hearing Gus' clichés.
One more year of Fisch could ruin Bortles for good. The first 40-48 starts are critical for any QB.
Bortles, with an OC that was more in line with his strengths/ skill set, would be trending much better week to week and thats even with his issues with fundamentals.
Thats how I see it anyway.
It is interesting though - this makes the question of just cutting the losses with Gus after this season a real issue. Because as you cite - keeping Gus makes keeping Fisch and Babich almost a necessity.
Quote:Path to success according to some.
1. Trade picks to move up in draft to draft a QB.
2. Fire HC 2/3 of the way into rookie season.
3. Hire new HC and assistants.
4. Fire HC and assistants.
5. Hire new HC and assistants.
5. Give high drafted QB 1 more year with 4th HC and OC in 3 years.
6. Trade failed QB and draft a new QB.
7. Rookie QB struggles while playing with 5 other rookies.
8.Fire HC and OC..........
How can this NOT be a recipe for success.
You got it all wrong. The board see's it as
1. Make excuses no matter how bad a coach or player 2.
2. Always count on next year
3. Tank for X player
4. Ignore the fact the team has regressed in many ways
5. Wins don't matter
6. Give a pat on the back for a coaching staff with a 6-23 record
7. Even if the plan looks like a complete disaster let it play out regardless
8. Rinse/Repeat #because Jaguars
Quote:You got it all wrong. The board see's it as
1. Make excuses no matter how bad a coach or player 2.
2. Always count on next year
3. Tank for X player
4. Ignore the fact the team has regressed in many ways
5. Wins don't matter
6. Give a pat on the back for a coaching staff with a 6-23 record
7. Even if the plan looks like a complete disaster let it play out regardless
8. Rinse/Repeat #because Jaguars
I giggled.
Point 6 you made needs to be addressed though.
Some of the posters don't seem to comprehend just how bad, historically bad, a 6-23 record is. Its already amongst the worst winning pct of all time (with at least 20+ games).
You'll be hard pressed to find many if any examples of a head coach with such a record or close ever turning it around and becoming a success in later years.
If we keep Gus around for another year or 2, I cringe to think how bad that record will be and how much all by himself Gus will likely be thought of as the worst coach of all time. At least right now, he's close enough to other peers in the group that he has company. If we continue this for another year or two its just going to be yet another punch line that the Jaguars will have forever. (as no head coach would be breaking that record at that point.)
Quote:One more year of Fisch could ruin Bortles for good. The first 40-48 starts are critical for any QB.
Bortles, with an OC that was more in line with his strengths/ skill set, would be trending much better week to week and thats even with his issues with fundamentals.
Thats how I see it anyway.
It is interesting though - this makes the question of just cutting the losses with Gus after this season a real issue. Because as you cite - keeping Gus makes keeping Fisch and Babich almost a necessity.
And that's where either Caldwell messed up or strategically planned it this way to have a built in excuse of the team is young and inexperienced and needs a lot of time. Tearing a team down and replacing it with all rookies then hiring a coach with no head coaching experience is not bright. It's do or die with this experiment; and to save his on [BLEEP] Caldwell will fire Gus when it doesn't work.
Quote:And that's where either Caldwell messed up or strategically planned it this way to have a built in excuse of the team is young and inexperienced and needs a lot of time. Tearing a team down and replacing it with all rookies then hiring a coach with no head coaching experience is not bright. It's do or die with this experiment; and to save his on [BAD WORD REMOVED] Caldwell will fire Gus when it doesn't work.
Well, in comparison of the 2, I believe that Caldwell has done a good job in young talent infusion. I don't think many coaches of this group including the head coach are all that good. I suppose one could pin the failed coaching hire on Caldwell, however and thats a fair criticism. I don't think Caldwell needs a "scapegoat" to fire Bradley/ and or some of his assistants. I think it would be justified.
Quote:Yeah. He would have had Gabbert dropping bombs to Mike Brown and Kerry Taylor while Mike Brewster and Cam Bradfield were plowing through defenders.
Exactly. And then the following year with record-breaking numbers of rookies on offence would have been a superbowl year. Believe!
Quote:Some of the posters don't seem to comprehend just how bad, historically bad, a 6-23 record is. Its already amongst the worst winning pct of all time (with at least 20+ games).
Some posters actually understand
why the record is that bad. A terrible roster which needed to be turned over completely, resulting in a team chock full of rookies. There are other things about this team that are historic, and they're the main cause of the record.
Quote:You'll be hard pressed to find many if any examples of a head coach with such a record or close ever turning it around and becoming a success in later years.
Because sometimes that sort of record doesn't have valid underlying reasons and the coach is genuinely to blame, and most of the time when the record is that bad the head coach is the scapegoat.
Quote:If we keep Gus around for another year or 2, I cringe to think how bad that record will be and how much all by himself Gus will likely be thought of as the worst coach of all time. At least right now, he's close enough to other peers in the group that he has company. If we continue this for another year or two its just going to be yet another punch line that the Jaguars will have forever. (as no head coach would be breaking that record at that point.)
Or you know, maybe after the defence being turned around in one season the offence will do the same thing, and the team will start winning more of the games it should, and some of the games it shouldn't. It really doesn't take much at this point - if the team is ever so slightly better, there are a lot of games that go in the W column this year.
Remember when Caldwell came in and completely cleaned house, absolutely burning down the horrible roster that Gene Smith had assembled for us?
Remember how refreshing that was?
Well most of us realized that would have dramatic prolonged repercussions on the franchise, ultimately resulting in positives, but with a heap of negative in the meanwhile.
And then there are the shortsighted individuals who don't have the patience to let it play out.
Beginning of year: "Play Bortles! I know the offense is full of rookies and the oline is going to be horrible, and we are going to suck with that much inexperience but you might as well play him!"
End of season: "Bortles sucks! Why does Bortles suck!? No its not the inexperienced rookies and horrible oline, it has to be something cleaner and easier for me to wrap my head around. I'm thinking one individual....Eureka!
FISCH SUCK ARRRGGGHHH HE IS THE WORST I FORGOT ABOUT ALL OF THAT STUFF AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR!! I WANT BLOOOOOOOOODDDD!!!! FISCH BLOOOOOOOOOOODDDD!!!"