Quote:You're absolutely right. Firing coaches every other year doesn't give teams who practice this behavior much success.
I do think Bradley gets another year. I'm not sure about Fisch but some people are claiming Bradley is going to get 5 years. If he starts next year like he has the past 2, he won't/shouldn't be the coach of this team anymore.
Couldn't agree more. You cannot judge GUS Bradley on these losses. He has made our players play with an edge that they haven't done so with in the past. Our defense has played better than I've seen in years, he's a defensive minded coach. The offense is simply on Jedd but regardless you cannot point the finger at him either. Our QB, C, G, 2 WR are all rookies. Not to mention our RB is basically a rookie. Our RT is nothing more than a backup, and it's all showing. We need to protect Blake more and play to his strengths. As far as motivating our team I haven't seen such a good job in a while and have not seen this many sacks or pressure to the opposing QB in years. It's quite obvious that we need to either draft a RT or FS early in next years draft to improve either side. I would say grab the FS just because it appears the safeties taken early have panned out more than the OT's as of recently, and we could probably grab a quality RT in free agency.
Quote:Couldn't agree more. You cannot judge GUS Bradley on these losses. He has made our players play with an edge that they haven't done so with in the past. Our defense has played better than I've seen in years, he's a defensive minded coach. The offense is simply on Jedd but regardless you cannot point the finger at him either. Our QB, C, G, 2 WR are all rookies. Not to mention our RB is basically a rookie. Our RT is nothing more than a backup, and it's all showing. We need to protect Blake more and play to his strengths. As far as motivating our team I haven't seen such a good job in a while and have not seen this many sacks or pressure to the opposing QB in years. It's quite obvious that we need to either draft a RT or FS early in next years draft to improve either side. I would say grab the FS just because it appears the safeties taken early have panned out more than the OT's as of recently, and we could probably grab a quality RT in free agency.
So if we can't judge him on losses.... Ultimately what can we judge him on?
You realize that if he doesn't end up winning, he won't be the coach of this team right? Winning is the only barometer of a head coach. When you look back through record books does it say "ended up 2-14 but boy did they play hard and they had a lot of rookies."
He's got to start winning and closing out games. We had a halftime lead yesterday at home against a division opponent. I agree the team is young but next year, if we keep losing, people will say "It's a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players out there!"
They absolutely should not fire the coaching staff, and I don't think they will.
I still like Bradley. I'm far less sure about Fisch, but I think there is a high chance he sticks around too. I'm not sure if that's a bad or good thing. One the one hand, continuity for the younger guys is important, but on the other hand he's done some really questionable play calling this year. Ultimately though, I think the number of things breaking down on offense due to so many rookies will give him the benefit of the doubt.
Quote:Honestly, the only position coach I would see being changed is Oline coach if Yarno can't come back next year. Butkis has been doing it this year but he was supposed to be Yarno's assistant. Just doesn't have the experience.
So I don't think the coaches should be fired. The record doesn't show it, but I've seen what I expected to see this year. Flashes thrown in with rookie mistakes.
A new ST coach should be a top priority as well.
Our special teams have been horrific all year.
Quote:A new ST coach should be a top priority as well.
Our special teams have been horrific all year.
There is a chance that you are right.
But only the people who watch the practices and know what is being taught and how it is being taught, and know the players and watch film and know
why the special teams have made so many mistakes... only the people who see it all up close are qualified to say if we need a new special teams coach, or better players. Not the fans. All the fans see is what happens on the field. The head coach has to judge why it is happening. Are blocked kicks the fault of the special teams coach, or is the problem that our offensive linemen are not strong enough to stop a push up the middle? Is a blocked punt the fault of the special teams coach, or is it the fault of the player who chose to block the wrong guy (I'm looking at you, Telvin)? Only the head coach knows if the special teams coach taught the player correctly or if the player had a brain [BAD WORD REMOVED], or if the player simply isn't talented enough.
Fans like to hire and fire assistant coaches, but fans do not see these guys actually coach. Fans cannot see whether these are qualified coaches trying to make lemonade out of lemons, or if these coaches are not coaching correctly. The fans don't see the coaches actually coaching. The head coach sees it all, and that makes the head coach a much better judge of whether he's got a good coach or not.
Quote:A new ST coach should be a top priority as well.
Our special teams have been horrific all year.
I think he's probably the most vulnerable of the coaches/coordinators.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Jerry Sullivan retire.
Quote:This from today's MMQB on Washington:
Does any of this sound familiar?
Yes...2-11 this year and 6-23 the past two years sucks mightily.
But not only does the above show changing coaches may not work, it may actually make matters worse.
In Jacksonville's case, the entire passing offense -which represents the bulk of the team's issues-is being run on the field primarily by rookies, including at QB, 3 WR spots, C, and RG.
Many of the struggles the personnel have had has come from playing while learning the offense (e.g. Marqise Lee).
If you keep the same schemes, Bortles, Lee, and Robinson will have the benefit of doing everything next year with the benefit of experience. There should be a lot less wondering whether people are lined up properly, what receivers should run when coverages show this vs. that, what the protections should be. Players should be making more plays next year based on instinct. That alone should mean improvement. Bortles, now a year into the playbook, can devote more time in honing his fundamentals. Lee and Robinson can work on getting off the jam. Bowanko and Linder can focus on getting stronger. If the team adds a tackle or two to improve the OL, Bowanko and Linder could help get them up to speed with authority, knowing the league a year and knowing the offense.
If you fire the coaches now, if you change schemes now, what will that do to the rookies on the offensive side of the ball?
Instead of Bortles, Lee, and A Robinson becoming less tentative and more decisive and more confident, all three will have to unlearn the scheme here and learn new schemes, prolonging the transition to becoming successful players.
While Linder and Bowanko seem to have played well this year, new schemes would mean them-and the rest of the new OL-learning new protections and possibly becoming more tentative, which leads to miss blocks, miss blitzes, missed assignments, and hits on the QB and RB for lost yards. They may be only slightly more knowledgeable initially on the protections in the new scheme than any tackles they bring in.
Compounding things further, let's assume Blackmon manages to return. He played in the offense briefly in 2013. If you assume some rust from the suspension, keeping the scheme with which he is already familiar will aid in his return. Conversely, changing schemes now may only make things more difficult for him and Bortles to get on the same page.
On top of that, whatever strength the defense represents may be lost with a change in coaching and scheme.
In a nutshell, you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater on both sides of the ball short term, with no assurances of long term success if you change coaches.
However, if he is to be a long-term solution he is going to have basically a miraclulous tun around.
Here are the current NFL Head Coaches # of losses in first 2 seasons. The numbers could obviously go up with 3 games remaining but this is eye opening. If Bradley is going to stick around then he has got to be part of a miracle and essentially some history making improvement. The stats are not perfect as there are a couple of 1st or 2nd year head coaches on this list without 2 complete seasons but you get the idea.
Bruce Arians- 9
Mike Smith- 12
John Harbaugh- 12
Doug Marrone- 15
Ron Rivera- 19
Marc Trestman- 15
Marvin Lewis- 16
Mike Pettine- 5
Jason Garret- 16
John Fox- 14
Jim Caldwell- 8
Mike McCarthy- 11
Bill O’Brien- 6
Chuck Pagano- 10
Gus Bradley- 22
Andy Reid- 16
Joe Philbin- 17
Mike Zimmer- 7
Bill Belichick- 19
Sean Payton- 15
Tom Coughlin- 19
Rex Ryan- 12
Tony Sparano- 14
Chip Kelly- 9
Mike Tomlin- 10
Mike McCoy- 11
Jim Harbaugh- 7
Pete Carroll- 18
Jeff Fisher- 14
Lovie Smith- 16
Ken Wisenhunt- 15
Jay Gruden- 9
Quote:I think he's probably the most vulnerable of the coaches/coordinators.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Jerry Sullivan retire.
I would hate to see Sullivan retire. He has so many young WRs to mold right now. It seems like he would be enthused about coming back.
Quote:However, if he is to be a long-term solution he is going to have basically a miraclulous tun around.
Here are the current NFL Head Coaches # of losses in first 2 seasons. The numbers could obviously go up with 3 games remaining but this is eye opening. If Bradley is going to stick around then he has got to be part of a miracle and essentially some history making improvement. The stats are not perfect as there are a couple of 1st or 2nd year head coaches on this list without 2 complete seasons but you get the idea.
Bruce Arians- 9
Mike Smith- 12
John Harbaugh- 12
Doug Marrone- 15
Ron Rivera- 19
Marc Trestman- 15
Marvin Lewis- 16
Mike Pettine- 5
Jason Garret- 16
John Fox- 14
Jim Caldwell- 8
Mike McCarthy- 11
Bill O’Brien- 6
Chuck Pagano- 10
Gus Bradley- 22
Andy Reid- 16
Joe Philbin- 17
Mike Zimmer- 7
Bill Belichick- 19
Sean Payton- 15
Tom Coughlin- 19
Rex Ryan- 12
Tony Sparano- 14
Chip Kelly- 9
Mike Tomlin- 10
Mike McCoy- 11
Jim Harbaugh- 7
Pete Carroll- 18
Jeff Fisher- 14
Lovie Smith- 16
Ken Wisenhunt- 15
Jay Gruden- 9
How many of those guys started 6 rookies on offense?
A new special teams coach should be a given.
I don't need to be at practice to understand our special teams unit is among the worst in the league.
Having multiple field goals and punts blocked is inexcusable.
Our punt coverage is bad.
Firing Mike Mallory should not even be a question.
Quote:This from today's MMQB on Washington:
Does any of this sound familiar?
Yes...2-11 this year and 6-23 the past two years sucks mightily.
But not only does the above show changing coaches may not work, it may actually make matters worse.
In Jacksonville's case, the entire passing offense -which represents the bulk of the team's issues-is being run on the field primarily by rookies, including at QB, 3 WR spots, C, and RG.
Many of the struggles the personnel have had has come from playing while learning the offense (e.g. Marqise Lee).
If you keep the same schemes, Bortles, Lee, and Robinson will have the benefit of doing everything next year with the benefit of experience. There should be a lot less wondering whether people are lined up properly, what receivers should run when coverages show this vs. that, what the protections should be. Players should be making more plays next year based on instinct. That alone should mean improvement. Bortles, now a year into the playbook, can devote more time in honing his fundamentals. Lee and Robinson can work on getting off the jam. Bowanko and Linder can focus on getting stronger. If the team adds a tackle or two to improve the OL, Bowanko and Linder could help get them up to speed with authority, knowing the league a year and knowing the offense.
If you fire the coaches now, if you change schemes now, what will that do to the rookies on the offensive side of the ball?
Instead of Bortles, Lee, and A Robinson becoming less tentative and more decisive and more confident, all three will have to unlearn the scheme here and learn new schemes, prolonging the transition to becoming successful players.
While Linder and Bowanko seem to have played well this year, new schemes would mean them-and the rest of the new OL-learning new protections and possibly becoming more tentative, which leads to miss blocks, miss blitzes, missed assignments, and hits on the QB and RB for lost yards. They may be only slightly more knowledgeable initially on the protections in the new scheme than any tackles they bring in.
Compounding things further, let's assume Blackmon manages to return. He played in the offense briefly in 2013. If you assume some rust from the suspension, keeping the scheme with which he is already familiar will aid in his return. Conversely, changing schemes now may only make things more difficult for him and Bortles to get on the same page.
On top of that, whatever strength the defense represents may be lost with a change in coaching and scheme.
In a nutshell, you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater on both sides of the ball short term, with no assurances of long term success if you change coaches.
Bullseye, as usual your post is well reasoned and astute.
You really should be made a moderator, as you'd be an ideal representative of what a poster on the board should aspire to.
It's true that firing a coach is a difficult decision, though I think the main reason for that isn't because of scheme changes or anything of the like, it's because of the difficulty in finding a genuinely elite head coach.
It's why there is so much recycling of them. (Parcells is a good example of this, as was Jimmy Johnson)
If the Jaguars could get someone like Harbaugh or Cowher I think jettisoning a guy that has proven not to be a difference making head coach would make sense.
That said, I think without the possibility of getting an actual elite coach then it might be better over the long term to keep the same guys around another year to try to keep the environment stable for Bortles until he's reached a point in his development that he's ready for a real coach to come in and take him from the "developing the basics" stage into the elite stage.
All coaches get a 3rd year if Bradley decides not to make any changes. I'm ok with that because that was the original plan. Personally, he was dealt a bad hand on the offense when you think about the rookies, QB turned RB, and a few trades (Monroe) and injuries (Lewis, Gerhart).
Quote:All coaches get a 3rd year if Bradley decides not to make any changes. I'm ok with that because that was the original plan. Personally, he was dealt a bad hand on the offense when you think about the rookies, QB turned RB, and a few trades (Monroe) and injuries (Lewis, Gerhart).
Yeah this job is a stinker made worse by small increment spending. I think even with a wider wallet it is going to be tough to make hay in 2015. Instead of hanging hope on rookies, it will be second year players. Going to get ugly before it gets slightly better.
Quote:How many of those guys started 6 rookies on offense?
I understand that....regardless of the situation, if Bradley is to stay longer it's going to be history making if he actually turns out to be good. Those are not odds I would ever bet on.
Quote:All coaches get a 3rd year if Bradley decides not to make any changes. I'm ok with that because that was the original plan. Personally, he was dealt a bad hand on the offense when you think about the rookies, QB turned RB, and a few trades (Monroe) and injuries (Lewis, Gerhart).
So plans aren't allowed the change?
Bradley thought Fisch would be the guy... Same with Babich. Both haven't shown very much in terms of their player development and game planning. Bradley taking over the defense is the difference here.
I totally understand keeping the coaches if you can see a noticeable change in the players they are coaching. You can only blame it on youth for so long.
Quote:I disagree. I don't thing Fisch will get fired. I give him a pass this year for working with so many rookies, and he needs more talent on the offensive line. Besides, firing Fisch would mean that all those young players on offense have to start over learning an entirely new scheme and playbook. Improve the offensive line and Fisch will look like a genius.
Exactly. Firing Fisch would negate one of the major points in the OP - all the young players would have to learn a new system. Sometimes a little stability is needed.
I think the big focus is on whether the coaches have lost the locker room. All indications are just the opposite. I know the post-game victory celebrations in the locker room are over the top, but they at least show that the rapport and relationship is still there.
Quote:Bullseye, as usual your post is well reasoned and astute.
You really should be made a moderator, as you'd be an ideal representative of what a poster on the board should aspire to.
It's true that firing a coach is a difficult decision, though I think the main reason for that isn't because of scheme changes or anything of the like, it's because of the difficulty in finding a genuinely elite head coach.
It's why there is so much recycling of them. (Parcells is a good example of this, as was Jimmy Johnson)
If the Jaguars could get someone like Harbaugh or Cowher I think jettisoning a guy that has proven not to be a difference making head coach would make sense.
That said, I think without the possibility of getting an actual elite coach then it might be better over the long term to keep the same guys around another year to try to keep the environment stable for Bortles until he's reached a point in his development that he's ready for a real coach to come in and take him from the "developing the basics" stage into the elite stage.
I agree about finding an elite head coach which is ultimately what you need to win a Super Bowl. Unequivocally, Bradley is not that that (at least not now) and in my opinion will never be that.
An elite head coach does not need to be an offensive or defensive genius but rather a leader of men, period. While I understand the players love Gus (since he does praise them for being the worst team in the NFL), I do not think he has the leadership necessary to lead his coaching staff and the players. A leader is to set a clear vision, equip their people to succeed and then hold people accountable (including himself). I have not seen that anywhere close to an elite level with Bradley.
I believe that Khan/Caldwell need to find a true leader who will find the right coaching staff to develop and lead this team. They also have to be willing to hold their staff accountable and make changes if warranted. I think Caldwell deserves another year as it appears he may be figuring this whole GM gig out.
Quote:This from today's MMQB on Washington:
Does any of this sound familiar?
Yes...2-11 this year and 6-23 the past two years sucks mightily.
But not only does the above show changing coaches may not work, it may actually make matters worse.
In Jacksonville's case, the entire passing offense -which represents the bulk of the team's issues-is being run on the field primarily by rookies, including at QB, 3 WR spots, C, and RG.
Many of the struggles the personnel have had has come from playing while learning the offense (e.g. Marqise Lee).
If you keep the same schemes, Bortles, Lee, and Robinson will have the benefit of doing everything next year with the benefit of experience. There should be a lot less wondering whether people are lined up properly, what receivers should run when coverages show this vs. that, what the protections should be. Players should be making more plays next year based on instinct. That alone should mean improvement. Bortles, now a year into the playbook, can devote more time in honing his fundamentals. Lee and Robinson can work on getting off the jam. Bowanko and Linder can focus on getting stronger. If the team adds a tackle or two to improve the OL, Bowanko and Linder could help get them up to speed with authority, knowing the league a year and knowing the offense.
If you fire the coaches now, if you change schemes now, what will that do to the rookies on the offensive side of the ball?
Instead of Bortles, Lee, and A Robinson becoming less tentative and more decisive and more confident, all three will have to unlearn the scheme here and learn new schemes, prolonging the transition to becoming successful players.
While Linder and Bowanko seem to have played well this year, new schemes would mean them-and the rest of the new OL-learning new protections and possibly becoming more tentative, which leads to miss blocks, miss blitzes, missed assignments, and hits on the QB and RB for lost yards. They may be only slightly more knowledgeable initially on the protections in the new scheme than any tackles they bring in.
Compounding things further, let's assume Blackmon manages to return. He played in the offense briefly in 2013. If you assume some rust from the suspension, keeping the scheme with which he is already familiar will aid in his return. Conversely, changing schemes now may only make things more difficult for him and Bortles to get on the same page.
On top of that, whatever strength the defense represents may be lost with a change in coaching and scheme.
In a nutshell, you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater on both sides of the ball short term, with no assurances of long term success if you change coaches.
This is a really excellent article that should be 'required reading' before anymore of the 'hang'em all' post show up. There is no question that the team has stunk to the high heavens since Gus has been here (actually, it was awful for years prior to his arrival); but try to keep in mind what Gus and Dave were handed when they got here... a turd!
There is no rock solid guarantee that Gus will be able to turn this team around. But as has been pointed out time and again, turning your coaching staff into a 'revolving door' every couple of years is an almost guaranteed way to assure a team's failure. We have some rookie coaches, and a lot of rookies on our roster at this time. We clearly need more help on our offensive line in order for our rookie franchise quarterback to develop.
As Bullseye said, to fire the head coach now would be to throw out the baby with the bath water...
maybe don't have bums blocking for your QB and you might win more games