Quote:No, it won't.
Changing the tax code won't make a major difference. Illegals will still be able to find jobs, because they're willing to work for sub minimum wage. Many of them send money back to their country, so even a fair tax would do little. Taking away welfare would hurt many in this country far more than it'd hurt illegal immigrants.
Real punishments for employers who hire illegals. That's what we need.
Changing the tax code I'm referring to eliminating the income tax all together and replacing it with a consumption tax. The problem with illegal immigrants is they earn income that is not taxed and then add a cost to society. A consumption tax everyone is paying into the system when they spend. It doesn't tax money that's sent home fine, but that's never going to be taxed anyway.
Secondly ending federal welfare is different from ending welfare. The magnets that bring illegal workers here are either tax free income (more then they can make in their native land) or welfare benefits not available in their native land ( obviously this welfare is collected fraudulently but it's still a magnet.) The best way to reduce or eliminate welfare fraud is to make states responsible for funding it themselves.
We could build a 100ft wall they'd dig a hole under it or build a 110ft ladder. We could deport everyone they'd turn around and come back. We could pass a national ID law they'd find a way to forge it. The only way to address illegal immigration is to turn off the magnets. Tax free income and welfare.
Quote:Changing the tax code I'm referring to eliminating the income tax all together and replacing it with a consumption tax. The problem with illegal immigrants is they earn income that is not taxed and then add a cost to society. A consumption tax everyone is paying into the system when they spend. It doesn't tax money that's sent home fine, but that's never going to be taxed anyway.
Secondly ending federal welfare is different from ending welfare. The magnets that bring illegal workers here are either tax free income (more then they can make in their native land) or welfare benefits not available in their native land ( obviously this welfare is collected fraudulently but it's still a magnet.) The best way to reduce or eliminate welfare fraud is to make states responsible for funding it themselves.
We could build a 100ft wall they'd dig a hole under it or build a 110ft ladder. We could deport everyone they'd turn around and come back. We could pass a national ID law they'd find a way to forge it. The only way to address illegal immigration is to turn off the magnets. Tax free income and welfare.
Eric, it's been explained to you a hundred times already how what you just posted about tax changes is wrong and wouldn't help in any manner that you think it would.
Let that stuff go, I know you want to believe you've been right all along, but you're just not.
Quote:Changing the tax code I'm referring to eliminating the income tax all together and replacing it with a consumption tax. The problem with illegal immigrants is they earn income that is not taxed and then add a cost to society. A consumption tax everyone is paying into the system when they spend. It doesn't tax money that's sent home fine, but that's never going to be taxed anyway.
Secondly ending federal welfare is different from ending welfare. The magnets that bring illegal workers here are either tax free income (more then they can make in their native land) or welfare benefits not available in their native land ( obviously this welfare is collected fraudulently but it's still a magnet.) The best way to reduce or eliminate welfare fraud is to make states responsible for funding it themselves.
We could build a 100ft wall they'd dig a hole under it or build a 110ft ladder. We could deport everyone they'd turn around and come back. We could pass a national ID law they'd find a way to forge it. The only way to address illegal immigration is to turn off the magnets. Tax free income and welfare.
He doesn't believe in what you are saying, so this automatically wont work Eric.
Quote:Eric, it's been explained to you a hundred times already how what you just posted about tax changes is wrong and wouldn't help in any manner that you think it would.
Let that stuff go, I know you want to believe you've been right all along, but you're just not.
Again me and you are never going to agree on what will or won't work when it comes to taxes. Mostly because we fundamentally disagree on what government's role is doesn't make some right or wrong just makes it two contrasting arguments.
That tax code as it is now encourages an underground workforce that was can agree on.
Quote:Changing the tax code I'm referring to eliminating the income tax all together and replacing it with a consumption tax. The problem with illegal immigrants is they earn income that is not taxed and then add a cost to society. A consumption tax everyone is paying into the system when they spend. It doesn't tax money that's sent home fine, but that's never going to be taxed anyway.
Secondly ending federal welfare is different from ending welfare. The magnets that bring illegal workers here are either tax free income (more then they can make in their native land) or welfare benefits not available in their native land ( obviously this welfare is collected fraudulently but it's still a magnet.) The best way to reduce or eliminate welfare fraud is to make states responsible for funding it themselves.
We could build a 100ft wall they'd dig a hole under it or build a 110ft ladder. We could deport everyone they'd turn around and come back. We could pass a national ID law they'd find a way to forge it. The only way to address illegal immigration is to turn off the magnets. Tax free income and welfare.
Your plan and Obama's both have the SAME PROBLEM:
It does nothing to address the increased supply of labor that illegals provide.
You have to cut off the jobs, not tax their income. Because even with a consumption tax, it's not going to discourage them from coming here when they'll still make more money here than they would back home. And that consumption tax won't hit them when they send money back home anyway.
Quote:Again me and you are never going to agree on what will or won't work when it comes to taxes. Mostly because we fundamentally disagree on what government's role is doesn't make some right or wrong just makes it two contrasting arguments.
That tax code as it is now encourages an underground workforce that was can agree on.
No, the tax code as it is now is the correct one with the wrong marginal rates and a welfare system shoehorned onto it.
The problem with illegals is (yet again) due to business owner exploitation. You don't fix the problem with illegal workers without severely punitive consequences for hiring illegals.
Quote:I didn't see in there where it requires them to pay taxes thought I could have missed it. I did notice they would not be entitled to various programs/credits nor is it a path to citizenship. I don't much see the point in this other than grandstanding. Besides the next prez can just strike it down anyways. It really holds no water.
A large benefit comes in the form of just having some sort of ID for these people. As it stands, when something happens like a car accident where the illegal is at fault, they can just walk away from the scene and there is no penalty for it whatsoever.
First of all, Obama is wrong to do this. It's a serious overreach of his executive powers, and a bad precedent. In fact, I think it should bring him pretty close to impeachment. But the Republicans don't have the nerve, so they won't do anything.
His doing it will probably bring the Hispanic vote to the democratic party for generations. That's why he's doing it.
That said, it would be a disaster to deport all these illegals. The construction industry would collapse, the agriculture industry would collapse, the hotel industry would collapse.
The thing to do is make all these illegals legal. We can't send them back without doing severe damage to our economy. Immigration is good for the economy.
But- it's not up to Obama to make them legal, and it's not up to him to decide not to enforce the law, either.
I'd bet no one agrees with me on everything I just said.
Quote:First of all, Obama is wrong to do this. It's a serious overreach of his executive powers, and a bad precedent. In fact, I think it should bring him pretty close to impeachment. But the Republicans don't have the nerve, so they won't do anything.
His doing it will probably bring the Hispanic vote to the democratic party for generations. That's why he's doing it.
That said, it would be a disaster to deport all these illegals. The construction industry would collapse, the agriculture industry would collapse, the hotel industry would collapse.
The thing to do is make all these illegals legal. We can't send them back without doing severe damage to our economy. Immigration is good for the economy.
But- it's not up to Obama to make them legal, and it's not up to him to decide not to enforce the law, either.
I'd bet no one agrees with me on everything I just said.
I agree that you cannot simply deport everyone.
Personally, I'd rather have them here as documented citizens than have them here as illegal. For reasons I stated above.
Deportation is near impossible at this point, somehow they have to balance dealing with who's hear and preventing people from abusing the system again and flooding us with another wave in 20 years.
We tried the amnesty thing and more just came, to me the only option to even begin to address the issue is to deal with the magnets. WHY do people come hear illegally, until we figure that out it's all blind shot in the dark.
Quote:Deportation is near impossible at this point, somehow they have to balance dealing with who's hear and preventing people from abusing the system again and flooding us with another wave in 20 years.
We tried the amnesty thing and more just came, to me the only option to even begin to address the issue is to deal with the magnets. WHY do people come hear illegally, until we figure that out it's all blind shot in the dark.
Eric, stop pretending we didn't just tell you what the magnet is - it's the jobs.
The way to stop it is at the source, the employers. Time to bring back the corporate death penalty.
Quote:Eric, stop pretending we didn't just tell you what the magnet is - it's the jobs.
The way to stop it is at the source, the employers. Time to bring back the corporate death penalty.
Most of them work for themselves, that's the reality, they own a lawn service business and it's under a friend or relatives name that is legal. They fix cars out of a mobile business that might or might not be registered to someone under a legal name. They clean houses for cash, and so on.
Corporations are not hiring illegals in mass, they work for cash and are paid by private individuals almost exclusively.
Quote:Deportation is near impossible at this point, somehow they have to balance dealing with who's hear and preventing people from abusing the system again and flooding us with another wave in 20 years.
We tried the amnesty thing and more just came, to me the only option to even begin to address the issue is to deal with the magnets. WHY do people come hear illegally, until we figure that out it's all blind shot in the dark.
Did I ever mention deportation as a solution?
I'm wondering if I did, because you keep bringing it up. Maybe someone else did, and you're responding to them. If so, then my apologies.
Quote:<div>
Most of them work for themselves, that's the reality, they own a lawn service business and it's under a friend or relatives name that is legal. They fix cars out of a mobile business that might or might not be registered to someone under a legal name. They clean houses for cash, and so on.
Corporations are not hiring illegals in mass, they work for cash and are paid by private individuals almost exclusively.
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Most of them actually hold jobs in manufacturing, Service, food preperation and construction jobs. But we should be going after private individuals who hire them as well. (of course then we'd have 90% of congress in prison)
Quote:No, the tax code as it is now is the correct one with the wrong marginal rates and a welfare system shoehorned onto it.
The problem with illegals is (yet again) due to business owner exploitation. You don't fix the problem with illegal workers without severely punitive consequences for hiring illegals.
Name the business that's hiring all these illegals you want to punish.
Quote:Did I ever mention deportation as a solution?
I'm wondering if I did, because you keep bringing it up. Maybe someone else did, and you're responding to them. If so, then my apologies.
I was agreeing with Ytram and Senor.
Quote: Most of them work for themselves, that's the reality, they own a lawn service business and it's under a friend or relatives name that is legal. They fix cars out of a mobile business that might or might not be registered to someone under a legal name. They clean houses for cash, and so on.
Corporations are not hiring illegals in mass, they work for cash and are paid by private individuals almost exclusively.
Then punish people for hiring illegals, too.
You are correct that a lot of illegals do odd jobs for cash, but you don't fix that problem with a bad tax change that shifts all the burden to the poor and middle class.
Quote:Your plan and Obama's both have the SAME PROBLEM:
It does nothing to address the increased supply of labor that illegals provide.
You have to cut off the jobs, not tax their income. Because even with a consumption tax, it's not going to discourage them from coming here when they'll still make more money here than they would back home. And that consumption tax won't hit them when they send money back home anyway.
They don't send all the money back for one. That's a misconception, they still eat here, they have some kind of housing here, they buy clothing material, transportation and so on.
also the jobs as I was pointing out to Oklahomie are mostly self employment jobs.
Quote:Then punish people for hiring illegals, too.
You are correct that a lot of illegals do odd jobs for cash, but you don't fix that problem with a bad tax change that shifts all the burden to the poor and middle class.
So who's going to go around and start fining people for hiring an illegal to cut their yard. Or is it now going to be each individuals responsibility to check the citizenship status of their lawn guy?
excuse me mr. pool cleaner I need to see your papers before I hire you to clean my pool for 20 bucks a week, give me a break, that will never happen.
Quote:Then punish people for hiring illegals, too.
You are correct that a lot of illegals do odd jobs for cash, but you don't fix that problem with a bad tax change that shifts all the burden to the poor and middle class.
Under the fair tax there's the prebate, where people still receive welfare but instead of it being one lump sum in the tax season it's sent incrementally. The fair tax or most consumption taxes do nothing to change the burden of who is paying taxes, the rich still pay more because the naturally spend more. It only changes how the taxes are collected.
Quote:They don't send all the money back for one. That's a misconception, they still eat here, they have some kind of housing here, they buy clothing material, transportation and so on.
also the jobs as I was pointing out to Oklahomie are mostly self employment jobs.
So who's going to go around and start fining people for hiring an illegal to cut their yard. Or is it now going to be each individuals responsibility to check the citizenship status of their lawn guy?
excuse me mr. pool cleaner I need to see your papers before I hire you to clean my pool for 20 bucks a week, give me a break, that will never happen.
I know, it's such a burden on those rich people paying someone to clean their pool to have to see their ID and call an immigration status hotline.
It could be something to keep the ICE people busy, have them go around doing it sting style then write out a big ticket when they catch people who would just hire some bum without checking to make sure they're an actual American.
Still, though, for the employers that actually hire or are run by illegals, landscaping companies or employees, just make sure they're verifying their employees and if they're not, the guy running the business can go to jail.
Quote:Under the fair tax there's the prebate, where people still receive welfare but instead of it being one lump sum in the tax season it's sent incrementally. The fair tax or most consumption taxes do nothing to change the burden of who is paying taxes, the rich still pay more because the naturally spend more. It only changes how the taxes are collected.
Just stop, we went over this already. You're wrong, and you're stupid to still be touting that idiocy after it's already been shown you're wrong.