My only concern is dealing with the people here is one thing, but we've done nothing to change why they come. We're kidding ourselves if we think saying ok this group is so big we're going to make it possible to earn citizenship but no more after this. It didn't work last time it won't work this time. So I guess that's my only problem unless more is done in the near future we've only put a patch on damn that's bursting at the seems. That said it's not something that can be done by the executive branch nor should it be attempted.
The way I see it it's up to the GOP held congress now to do something and then it's up to Obama to sign it into law. That of course would require Washington to get something meaningful done so I won't hold my breath.
Quote:What Obama has outlined is fine, I don't have a problem with what he's proposed in his speech. So long as that's what really is going on it's all common sense stuff. Republicans would be stupid to kick up a dust storm about any of this.
So did Obamacare. What's wrong with free and cheap healthcare for everyone!?
He didn't mention how he was going to do any of what he was saying he is going to do. And frankly, a lot of it is just bluster or impractical. How exactly will the government prove an illegal hasn't been here 5 years? How are you going to improve border security?
Immigration reform and border security needs to happen first - way before any form of amnesty is granted.
You Won’t Believe What This Illegal Alien Mother of 7 Collected – For 20 YEARS (Video)
“Emperor Obama” (by his own
definition), in his speech tonight selling his lawless executive amnesty for 5 million illegal aliens, assured Americans that every illegal “comes here to work” and “not for a handout.”
Then there is reality: the vast majority of illegal aliens are
on welfare, and
will be for life.
http://toprightnews.com/?p=761
Quote:You Won’t Believe What This Illegal Alien Mother of 7 Collected – For 20 YEARS (Video)
“Emperor Obama” (by his own <a class="bbc_url" href='http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/obama-the-problem-is-im-not-the-emperor-of-the-united-states.html'>definition</a>), in his speech tonight selling his lawless executive amnesty for 5 million illegal aliens, assured Americans that every illegal “comes here to work” and “not for a handout.”
Then there is reality: the vast majority of illegal aliens are <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/04/most-illegal-immigrant-families-collect-welfare/'>on welfare</a>, and <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer'>will be for life</a>.
<a class="bbc_url" href='http://toprightnews.com/?p=761'>http://toprightnews.com/?p=761</a>
But that's fraud so the issue there is fixing fraud in welfare not immigration. And he didn't give them amnesty their not legal citizens with the full benifits and protections of the law.
Quote:But that's fraud so the issue there is fixing fraud in welfare not immigration. And he didn't give them amnesty their not legal citizens with the full benifits and protections of the law.
A rose by any other name.........
Quote:People should be cutting their own yards (I know I do!) or hiring someone from the neighborhood to do it if they're lazy. They should also be cleaning their own pool (again, I know we do!) If they want someone to clean their house (instead of, again, doing it themselves like we do!) they can hire a company. Changing their tires? I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to go to a major mechanic to get my tires changed. I don't pay someone on the street to do it.
Ignorance does not excuse breaking the law. If they break the law by hiring illegal immigrants, they should face the consequences. Just as they would for a different violation of the law that they don't know about.
So if people have spare cash that they've worked for they aren't allowed to hire people to cut their grass, clean their pool, or clean their house?
Amazed at this mind set....we should all be paid the same wages. Let the government ration food, produce our cars, tell us where to work and set our hours too.
Quote:A rose by any other name.........
It's not, amnesty would be them having full legal status and protections/benefits of citizens. They can't vote, they can't legally collect welfare, they can't get subsidies under Obamacare, all they can do is register and pay taxes on the lose promise they won't be deported for 2 years. Really it would be stupid for them to come out and register but that's a different topic.
What this does however is strategically paint the GOP coming into power into a corner, either they're going to put together comprehensive reform and debate what needs to be done, or stomp their feet and look like the do nothing party again. I don't like what Obama did but that doesn't make it illegal or amnesty it just makes him a good politician, time for the other side to start playing the game a little smarter.
Quote:So if people have spare cash that they've worked for they aren't allowed to hire people to cut their grass, clean their pool, or clean their house?
Amazed at this mind set....we should all be paid the same wages. Let the government ration food, produce our cars, tell us where to work and set our hours too.
I just don't understand how people think it's even a viable option, no one's going to check immigration status before paying someone to cut their yard it's as impractical as rounding them all up and sending them home.
Quote:I just don't understand how people think it's even a viable option, no one's going to check immigration status before paying someone to cut their yard it's as impractical as rounding them all up and sending them home.
What you're saying is it's not a viable option to actually make people responsible for their actions and the only thing that would work is destroying the social fabric of the US to the point that no one would want to immigrate to it.
I know to you it all seems logical and not the way I'm describing, but you're wrong.
Quote:I just don't understand how people think it's even a viable option, no one's going to check immigration status before paying someone to cut their yard it's as impractical as rounding them all up and sending them home.
I like how you use the lowest common denominator to argue this. Guess what -- most likely, nobody's going to report you for hiring some hispanic guy to cut your lawn (even though by doing so, you're kind of contributing to the problem you say exists in the first place!)
But when you go out, and get some of those guys in a truck and have them help build your porch? Yeah, I think you know you're hiring illegals there. Now if you hire a contractor, and he brings in illegal immigrants, that's a different story altogether.
And why wouldn't you do a background check when hiring a maid? Oops. Turns out you just hired a thief to clean your house, and while you weren't looking they stole your wife's jewelry.
Quote:I like how you use the lowest common denominator to argue this. Guess what -- most likely, nobody's going to report you for hiring some hispanic guy to cut your lawn (even though by doing so, you're kind of contributing to the problem you say exists in the first place!)
But when you go out, and get some of those guys in a truck and have them help build your porch? Yeah, I think you know you're hiring illegals there. Now if you hire a contractor, and he brings in illegal immigrants, that's a different story altogether.
And why wouldn't you do a background check when hiring a maid? Oops. Turns out you just hired a thief to clean your house, and while you weren't looking they stole your wife's jewelry.
Right, but according to you we shouldn't be hiring any of those people. We should be doing it all ourselves. How dare someone choose where, when, and to whom they spend their money!
Quote:I like how you use the lowest common denominator to argue this. Guess what -- most likely, nobody's going to report you for hiring some hispanic guy to cut your lawn (even though by doing so, you're kind of contributing to the problem you say exists in the first place!)
But when you go out, and get some of those guys in a truck and have them help build your porch? Yeah, I think you know you're hiring illegals there. Now if you hire a contractor, and he brings in illegal immigrants, that's a different story altogether.
And why wouldn't you do a background check when hiring a maid? Oops. Turns out you just hired a thief to clean your house, and while you weren't looking they stole your wife's jewelry.
I'll try and clear up some confusion, I don't hire anyone to do any of that. I'm saying that the people who do hire lawn service guys and contractors are not going to ever check immigration status. Also maids most of them are hired on refereed status, I know my wife cleaned houses for about a year as extra income, not once did anyone do a background check. A good majority of the other girls doing it where what you'd suspect as illegals, no one does background checks they check with other people they've cleaned for and find out if they're honest and do a good job.
The point I'm trying to illustrate is tracking down people that have in some way employed illegals is trying to fix the problem on the back end. Even if we're 75% efficient at it, it doesn't fix the problem. We should fix the problem on the front end, the why they come here rather then once they get here.
I reject the idea immigrants come here just to leach off the welfare system, however it happens, so make it harder for fraud to take place in the welfare network. Tighten down reign on welfare and the minority that come here for a "free ride" will stop coming.
The majority of them come to work however you can't make everyone that wants to work here a citizen. The solution is to have a guest worker program and to change the tax code so that they regardless of how they generate income are paying into the system.
Quote:The point I'm trying to illustrate is tracking down people that have in some way employed illegals is trying to fix the problem on the back end. Even if we're 75% efficient at it, it doesn't fix the problem. We should fix the problem on the front end, the why they come here rather then once they get here.
I reject the idea immigrants come here just to leach off the welfare system, however it happens, so make it harder for fraud to take place in the welfare network. Tighten down reign on welfare and the minority that come here for a "free ride" will stop coming.
The majority of them come to work however you can't make everyone that wants to work here a citizen. The solution is to have a guest worker program and to change the tax code so that they regardless of how they generate income are paying into the system.
You do realize that it's
never going to happen? Right? They're never going to change the tax code and add a consumption tax. There's just too many issues with it. I suppose that should be a separate topic though, so I won't get into it here.
Most of them aren't coming here to try to draw welfare (and most of them that do, would still find a way to cheat the system no matter what you do. If they're cheating the system now, then they'll just find a new way to cheat the new system), most of them come here because they can earn more money. Not because it's tax free though. They're going to make more money tax or no tax. (Otherwise none of them would want worker visas)
Quote:You do realize that it's never going to happen? Right? They're never going to change the tax code and add a consumption tax. There's just too many issues with it. I suppose that should be a separate topic though, so I won't get into it here.
Most of them aren't coming here to try to draw welfare (and most of them that do, would still find a way to cheat the system no matter what you do. If they're cheating the system now, then they'll just find a new way to cheat the new system), most of them come here because they can earn more money. Not because it's tax free though. They're going to make more money tax or no tax. (Otherwise none of them would want worker visas)
that's the focus and how we address the problem though, we both agree more money is the main reason the majority of them come here. Now that's a problem because
1.) it's money that is distributed and taxes are not collected on.
2.) it takes jobs off the market that otherwise citizens would be doing.
There's only two ways to address that, amnesty and now they're tax paying employed citizens (not something that many people would support myself included) or change the way taxes are collected and make sure they're not collecting benefits not afforded to non-citizens. doing anything other then two options is just patching the leaking dam.
I don't think rounding people up to ship them home is a real option, I don't think building a wall or fence would stop anyone, I don't think creating a national database is a good idea. Employers are already prohibited from hiring illegals, you can stiffen the punishment but if that worked we wouldn't have a drug problem in America, so that leaves addressing the reality people from all over the world are going to come here to work. How do we profit from it and make it beneficial to us instead of having an underground black market that cheapens the system.
Quote:that's the focus and how we address the problem though, we both agree more money is the main reason the majority of them come here. Now that's a problem because
1.) it's money that is distributed and taxes are not collected on.
2.) it takes jobs off the market that otherwise citizens would be doing.
There's only two ways to address that, amnesty and now they're tax paying employed citizens (not something that many people would support myself included) or change the way taxes are collected and make sure they're not collecting benefits not afforded to non-citizens. doing anything other then two options is just patching the leaking dam.
I don't think rounding people up to ship them home is a real option, I don't think building a wall or fence would stop anyone, I don't think creating a national database is a good idea. Employers are already prohibited from hiring illegals, you can stiffen the punishment but if that worked we wouldn't have a drug problem in America, so that leaves addressing the reality people from all over the world are going to come here to work. How do we profit from it and make it beneficial to us instead of having an underground black market that cheapens the system.
Again, the consumption tax just has too many problems with it. I don't think rounding people up works either. Nor do I think building a wall or fence would stop many people (it would stop some, but not many).
But there's a major difference between Drugs and hiring illegals.
Drugs, much like Alcohol -- the primary motivation is enjoyment. (Same with prostitution). The fear of punishment doesn't take away any of the motivation. For some it enhances it.
Hiring Illegals, the primary motive is monetary. Significantly reduce that motivation, and you'll reduce the problem of illegal immigration. It won't eliminate it, but you can't eliminate the problem altogether.
Quote:Again, the consumption tax just has too many problems with it. I don't think rounding people up works either. Nor do I think building a wall or fence would stop many people (it would stop some, but not many).
But there's a major difference between Drugs and hiring illegals.
Drugs, much like Alcohol -- the primary motivation is enjoyment. (Same with prostitution). The fear of punishment doesn't take away any of the motivation. For some it enhances it.
Hiring Illegals, the primary motive is monetary. Significantly reduce that motivation, and you'll reduce the problem of illegal immigration. It won't eliminate it, but you can't eliminate the problem altogether.
Good point about the motivation. I agree you're never going to eliminate it entirely and I don't have a problem with increasing the penalty for companies hiring illegals, I just think it's only patching the problem. Because we know people are going to naturally migrate here to earn more money then they could ever make in their native home we have to find away to make that beneficial to us.
If we're going to require people to check immigration status when hiring individuals keep in mind we have to deal with the inevitable you're racist for asking me a Hispanic for my papers.
Quote:It's not, amnesty would be them having full legal status and protections/benefits of citizens. They can't vote, they can't legally collect welfare, they can't get subsidies under Obamacare, all they can do is register and pay taxes on the lose promise they won't be deported for 2 years. Really it would be stupid for them to come out and register but that's a different topic.
What this does however is strategically paint the GOP coming into power into a corner, either they're going to put together comprehensive reform and debate what needs to be done, or stomp their feet and look like the do nothing party again. I don't like what Obama did but that doesn't make it illegal or amnesty it just makes him a good politician, time for the other side to start playing the game a little smarter.
It is a first step into amnesty. Do you think these people will be in "temporary protective status" forever? Are they going to be deported after this status lapses? They will be given a path towards citizenship next. They will be given their permanent residency next and eventually citizenship.
Quote:What you're saying is it's not a viable option to actually make people responsible for their actions and the only thing that would work is destroying the social fabric of the US to the point that no one would want to immigrate to it.
I know to you it all seems logical and not the way I'm describing, but you're wrong.
As already's been stated, its not feasible for ordinary citizens to conduct immigration checks on people. Not only is it nearly impossible without IAFIS and IDENT databases, its nearly impossible to prove someone knowingly hired an illegal without a blatant confession.
ICE has already been handcuffed and isn't allowed to check immigration status on pretty much anyone except prisoners because its deemed insensitive and racist... This decree and mandate by your very own party. Your own party would NEVER allow ICE to go door-to-door checking immigration status.