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Full Version: Is the plan just simply flawed?
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Quote:Something is wrong, that much is obvious.


What exactly it is, probably several things.


Today, it seemed the Jags were more a bend but don't break D, like back in the JDR days.


It worked for the most part today, as they held the Steelers to 10 points on offense.


Yea we should win games the defense keeps the opposing team to 10 points
Quote:Many of the passes over the middle that are beyond the LBs are his responsibility and they're not being covered.  Some of it is the opposing teams picking on this zone, but his responsibility within the scheme is not being fulfilled.  

 

Look for someone like this to be drafted in April. 
 

Thanks for that.  That just brings up a bigger can of worms though, doesn't it?

 

If our FS is being caught out of position so often and our LBs are getting burned in zone coverage, why the heck aren't we playing more man, or perhaps switching to nickle on certain downs?

 

Of course, I know the answer to that...  Lack of talent....   I think I'm going to give myself an aneurysm 
I'm starting to think that most of our problem is youth.   We are starting 5 or 6 rookies on offense alone.  

 

Bortles- rookie

Hurns- rookie

A. Robinson- rookie

Bowanko- rookie

Linder- rookie

Joeckel- almost a rookie.  Had just a couple of plays at LT last year before he was lost for the year. 

Last game we started Sam Young at RT, who is a rookie. 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a team start that many rookies on one side of the ball. 
Quote:I'm starting to think that most of our problem is youth. We are starting 5 or 6 rookies on offense alone.


Bortles- rookie

Hurns- rookie

A. Robinson- rookie

Bowanko- rookie

Linder- rookie

Joeckel- almost a rookie. Had just a couple of plays at LT last year before he was lost for the year.

Last game we started Sam Young at RT, who is a rookie.


I don't think I've ever seen a team start that many rookies on one side of the ball.


Fair point but doesn't some of that fall on the front office?
Quote:Fair point but doesn't some of that fall on the front office?
 

Yes, some of it does.

 

I think especially the issues on the O-Line...  They knew they were losing some linemen after the 2013 season..  They traded Monrow, knew that Meester was gonzos, knew that Wimper wasn't the answer...  And they still only came up with Beadles and then a bunch of rookies...  

 

Yes, the youth issue in the secondary was expected.  The WR issue was also to be expected.  The O-Line is something that is concerning.
Quote:Fair point but doesn't some of that fall on the front office?
 

even better point.

 

the veterans that were supposed to be mixed in there were Cecil and Marcedes, who both won't be on the team next year barring something miraculous.
Quote:I don't expect any changes this year. By all means let's wait and see what happens in year 3 but this feels awfully familiar. Gene told us 4 years and for 3 years we waited when the 4th year got here nothing magically got better.
 

Actually, technically speaking, the team was competitive under Gene's first 2 years. Team was 7-9 and 8-8 those years. Then Gabbert got inserted into the lineup earlier than the coaching staff wanted because Luke McCown was atrocious and the wheels fell off. So, at least Gene has that going for him...

 

Quote:Did we really think this group was the most talented collection of linemen available?
 

Nope. We thought the most talented collection of linemen available included Mike Brewster and Jacques McClendon.

 

Talk about scary thoughts.
Quote: 

Nope. We thought the most talented collection of linemen available included Mike Brewster and Jacques McClendon.

 

Talk about scary thoughts.
Devils advocate:   They did put a legit offer on the table for an all-pro C. Shame it didn't work out - but we can't brush the try under the rug like it didn't happen. Linder was drafted in the third round. That's also a legitimate effort put forth to build the line. 

Beadles has not played worthy of his paycheck yet. That sucks. But they did make an effort there as well.  

 

If you want a gripe on the O-line - it's this ZBS thing.  That's why they passed on some good mid round centers for Bowanko IMO (who may actually be pretty good in time.)  It's also to blame for Beadles over some other FA guards  and it certainly makes the rookie learning curve steeper. 

 

(Keeping Brewster and McClendon was grasping at straws and hoping for decent depth IMO)

Quote:When we hired Caldwell the plan was clear a total rebuild. Tear it all down, design a scheme, build a team around the scheme. Didn't matter if some players here where serviceable we where going to a zone blocking team on offense and a hybrid team on defense. Two years later and we are failing on both fronts miserably.


Maybe the problems not coaching or talent but an insistsnce on only bringing in players for a specific scheme. Why don't we or haven't we simply brought in talent and developed schemes around who we have.



To me the problem is at the top, that's Caldwell. It's not popular to say but who else is responsible for building this roster? Are we passing up talent because it doesn't fit out scheme? That's simply a luxury we can't afford. It also feels like a backwards way to go about building a franchise.


We've been thru 3 rebuilds. Two were the "traditional" way with Shack and Gene and now we're into our third going unconventional. We have a GM thinking outside of the box guys. Lets see how this works out before critiquing an unfinished product, especially when we know the previous method netted us 0 for 2.
Quote:Devils advocate:   They did put a legit offer on the table for an all-pro C. Shame it didn't work out - but we can't brush the try under the rug like it didn't happen. Linder was drafted in the third round. That's also a legitimate effort put forth to build the line. 

Beadles has not played worthy of his paycheck yet. That sucks. But they did make an effort there as well.  

 

If you want a gripe on the O-line - it's this ZBS thing.  That's why they passed on some good mid round centers for Bowanko IMO (who may actually be pretty good in time.)  It's also to blame for Beadles over some other FA guards  and it certainly makes the rookie learning curve steeper. 

 

(Keeping Brewster and McClendon was grasping at straws and hoping for decent depth IMO)
 

I actually made a post in another thread about Mack right after making the post here. I certainly give, and gave at the time, Dave credit for that. It was a good move with lots of gusto. It didn't work out, unfortunately. But I give him credit.

 

The issue is, Mack is a top tier player, at a premium position, on a team with a ton of cap room, and was a RFA. You can't bank on situations like that. Mack was a prayer. He was simply sitting there, so the team made a play for him. There needed to be something done at center before Mack. Free Agency started on March 11th, and the Jags reached an agreement with Mack on April 9th. That's basically an entire month of Dave saying "you know what guys? We don't need to make any attempt at finding a center. We have Mike Brewster, who has been benched the past 2 seasons because he was getting overpowered by defenders. And we have Jacques McClendon who has played maybe 3 games as a guard at the professional level. Yep. This is fine."

 

No real complaints from me about Linder. I like that the team took a lineman in the 3rd and he seems to look promising. I just wish he'd be the only one struggling on the line, because then I could chalk it up to rookie inexperience.

 

Beadles sucking isn't something I'm going to give Dave a pass on. He made an attempt, sure. Yay. But it's his job to evaluate talent. Beadles was the crown jewel of this free agency class and he's been awful this year. That's not a pass. That's a damning indictment of Dave's eye for talent.

 

Your points on the ZBS scheme are well made and well taken. But for me, when it comes to team building, I think offensive line is one of the most important faucets of the game. I think that there needed to be a lot more done. Especially if they knew they were taking Bortles and that there was a possibility he'd be starting this year. You have to have a functioning offensive line for your franchise QB to play behind. And regardless of whether its the ZBS scheme or Dave not caring about the line or whatever, there will be no convincing me that going into the season with the expected starting lineup of Luke "I've played 5 snaps at LT" Joekel, Zane Beadles, Mike "I'll magically be able to handle defenders now that I'm playing center" Brewster, Jacques "Did you watch me play last year or did you blink and miss it?" McClendon, and Austin Paztor was a sufficient lineup. Linder and Bowanko on the bench are fine. Bradfield on the bench is fine. I didn't mind the depth guys. But I think you have to sign a couple more stop-gap guys or overdraft mediocre players just to make the line functionable. Otherwise you wind up with what we have now; no holes for runningbacks, and no pockets for your franchise QB. Its just not workable. But that is just personal team-building philosophy, so I can understand others disagreeing with parts of it (mainly the overdrafting mediocre players just to have a line that functions.).
Quote: 

Beadles sucking isn't something I'm going to give Dave a pass on. 

Me either.  He needs to step up soon or that's a big swing and miss. 


 

Your points on the ZBS scheme are well made and well taken. But for me, when it comes to team building, I think offensive line is one of the most important facets...
I'm certainly not content with how the line has been addressed and I'm not sold on the ZBS - but I'm intrigued by the potential of Linder, Pasztor, Joeckel and perhaps even Bowanko as long term pieces. There's a chance that all they need do is replace the LG if he doesn't start to earn his paycheck. Yes - it's just a "chance" at this point - but I want to see it play out. 

 

BTW - I was outspoken through the offseason about Brewster NOT being the answer at center and was shocked they put so many eggs in that basket. I'd have gone after a center earlier in the draft. I kept saying Bodine was a mid to late round steal, but probably not a ZBS fit. (He looks pretty good in Cincy as their starting center - round 4 pick) 
Quote:This team is 5-17 in the past 2 years.

 

I dunno if we win more than a game or two all year.  It is troublesome to see how far off this team is after 2 offseasons. 
Other teams that were bad last year are now winning. At least a game or 2.Jacksonville?????

4-17 wow just wow!

Lost 8 in a row!
Quote:I'm certainly not content with how the line has been addressed and I'm not sold on the ZBS - but I'm intrigued by the potential of Linder, Pasztor, Joeckel and perhaps even Bowanko as long term pieces. There's a chance that all they need do is replace the LG if he doesn't start to earn his paycheck. Yes - it's just a "chance" at this point - but I want to see it play out. 

 

BTW - I was outspoken through the offseason about Brewster NOT being the answer at center and was shocked they put so many eggs in that basket. I'd have gone after a center earlier in the draft. I kept saying Bodine was a mid to late round steal, but probably not a ZBS fit. (He looks pretty good in Cincy as their starting center - round 4 pick) 
 

I'm definitely intrigued with Linder, Pasztor, and Joeckel. I don't want to give off the impression that I don't like any of them or anything. I just don't want so many young, unproven, commodities starting at such premium positions at the same time. Give them time to learn the playbook, get up to NFL speed and strength, and ease them in while others can help them.

 

I don't know if Pasztor will ever be an elite RT, but I think he can definitely be an average tackle at the worst. Linder and Joeckel are the two I'm really excited about. Linder hasn't looked that bad this year, given that he's a rookie, the rest of the line sucks too, and the two guys he's been playing next to have been rotating every week seemingly. I like what Bowanko gives this team over Brewster and McClendon, but I am a bit more worried about him long term than the other 3. We'll see though. Hopefully he'll be a homerun steal.

 

I don't follow college football enough to be able to pick individual players as guys I'd like to see drafted past the first round, but I definitely thought we needed a guy before the 6th round. I don't know if I was quite as outspoken about not liking Brewster, mainly because I think I hibernated from the board in the off-season. But, I definitely was not sold on Brewster after he failed so badly at guard. I feel like a lot of people felt that way, except Dave and Gus. I don't know if its the ZBS or not, but I imagine there had to be someone floating around who knew how to fit the ZBS that was better than Brewster. Just by the simple law of averages. :confused:

 

But, nothing we can do now (except criticize and complain). Hopefully the line not only gels but also grows individually into top tier players and the line becomes a strength. I'm not sold on it, but, fingers crossed.
Of course the plan is flawed. Tear down the roster, fill it with a bunch of rookies and UFA. No difference makers signed in FA. If they expected to field a competitive team with that, they're idiots. The salary cap was supposed to help with parity. WE AREN'T SPENDING MONEY! You think it would have helped Bortles to sign some solid veteran linemen/a few receivers with some experience? But hey, at least we got Toby.
Quote:I agree you build the scheme around the players and not the other way around.


All I know is this regime is currently 4-17. That is not getting the job done. The young and inexperienced excuse only goes so far. We need to see some progress soon.


Exactly. "Young and inexperienced" was the route they chose, and it aint workin. They should take heat for it. At the very least we should be seeing improvement from last year's debacle, and we arent.


This is pro sports. WE AREN'T FREAKING SMU. Their job is to put a competitive product on the field every year. Nobody is saying we should be seeing the results of a complete rebuild in 2 years, but there should at least be positive signs.
Quote:Exactly. "Young and inexperienced" was the route they chose, and it aint workin. They should take heat for it. At the very least we should be seeing improvement from last year's debacle, and we arent.


This is pro sports. WE AREN'T FREAKING SMU. Their job is to put a competitive product on the field every year. Nobody is saying we should be seeing the results of a complete rebuild in 2 years, but there should at least be positive signs.


In the past 2 weeks has there not been improvement? Have there not been any positive signs in that same timeframe?
Quote:Today there were 10 starters playing in their first or second seasons. That's what happens in a "total rebuild" and it takes time to produce results.


Unless you feel just fine writing off Joeckel, Bowanko, Linder, D-Rob, A-Rob, Lee, Bortles, Hurns, Sanders, S Johnson, T Smith, Cyprien, A Colvin , McCray and others as busts, then it's time to hold your horses and give it some time.


I personally think that a few of you demonizing Caldwell will be ready to erect a shrine to the guy when half of those ^ guys turn out to be above average starters.


You shouldnt have a starting lineup made up of that much youth. This isnt college football. You dont get 3 or 4 years to show even the SlIGHTEST sign of improvement
Quote:In the past 2 weeks has there not been improvement? Have there not been any positive signs in that same timeframe?


Wasnt today the very first time ever that the long term Jags O-line five played on the field together? That they arent already comparable to the Hogs is a travesty.
Quote:In the past 2 weeks has there not been improvement? Have there not been any positive signs in that same timeframe?


We have played a total of 4 good quarters of football in 5 games. But yeah, lots of improvement
Quote:You shouldnt have a starting lineup made up of that much youth. This isnt college football. You dont get 3 or 4 years to show even the SlIGHTEST sign of improvement


Caldwell and Gus have been here for that long?
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