Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:So Andy Reid deserves no credit for turning that mess in KC around?

They're 2-3

Quote:They're 2-3

Id take 2-3

They also played in a much tougher division

They are not great, but miles ahead of where they were. Reid has done a great job even if they fired him tomorrow.


Their game today could have gone either way, and SF is loaded with excellent players. They went from basement to playoffs, what more could a 1-15 team ask?

I have texans at home as our first win of the year.... Not too confident though. Maybe a win vs tennessee too. That's all though.

Quote:a secondary of high draft picks. :confused:

Maybe you're confused because you don't realize that the secondary yesterday consisted of 2 cast off CBs, a 2, a 6, and a 7? Definitely not a case study in high draft picks.

Quote:Maybe you're confused because you don't realize that the secondary yesterday consisted of 2 cast off CBs, a 2, a 6, and a 7? Definitely not a case study in high draft picks.

 

Maybe you're confused with where I was going with my post. Was the gist of my post specifically talking about the Steelers game? Was the secondary from yesterday the planned secondary for this season? The planned secondary was supposed to be, as we were sold on last year, Ball, Evans, Cyp, and Gratz. 2/4 were high draft picks (2nd and 3rd), one was signed within the first week of free agency, and Evans was a 6th (who wound up benched to start the season and is only playing because the Guy he was benched for was also atrocious and released). That is not a secondary that in its second year together should be allowing every QB to turn into a first-ballot HOF QB, yet that's exactly what they did, until yesterday. Yesterday they showed progress, but it took them 5 games into their second season to get to a point where they looked like they knew how to play football. So many people are saying "this is what you should be expecting because of all the rookies and uncertainties" but that only applies to the offense. The defense should not have been as bad as it was the first 4 weeks. Hopefully yesterday will be the beginning of the norm and not an outlier. Until we find out though, I don't think expecting the defense to look like they know how to play football when its base is supposed to include 7 veteran free agent signings, and a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th round pick all in their second years, constitutes a "magical turnaround."  (Poz is excluded from this tallying of the defense because he was already here, and on a large contract, when Dave got here, so he's the only one on the defense not handpicked by Dave. Therefore I don't count Poz' play against Dave.)

 

Edit: And to the "2 cast off CB" comment; Ball was signed within the first week of free agency and Blackmon was claimed off waivers (from a team with "such superior talent" to the Jags that he was let go because of a "logjam" we were told all last year.) last year. They're both in their second year on the team, playing the same role they did last year. That hardly classifies as "cast off." Its not like when the team signed Youboty in November, after he had been cut by the Bucs during final cuts, and then threw him out there as a starter.

The "flaw" in the plan was believing they could cut perceived "chafe" and replace it with better talent that they picked.

 

Unfortunately it's hard to find talent and when you do find it, you can't just let it walk away. Terrence Knighton and Daryl Smith are quality examples of that.

 

Sometimes I feel like GMs come here to try terrible experiments with the roster simply because the media won't tear them to shreds like they would a more popular team.

 

That's also probably the booze talking.

Quote:Maybe you're confused with where I was going with my post. Was the gist of my post specifically talking about the Steelers game? Was the secondary from yesterday the planned secondary for this season? The planned secondary was supposed to be, as we were sold on last year, Ball, Evans, Cyp, and Gratz. 2/4 were high draft picks (2nd and 3rd), one was signed within the first week of free agency, and Evans was a 6th (who wound up benched to start the season and is only playing because the Guy he was benched for was also atrocious and released). That is not a secondary that in its second year together should be allowing every QB to turn into a first-ballot HOF QB, yet that's exactly what they did, until yesterday. Yesterday they showed progress, but it took them 5 games into their second season to get to a point where they looked like they knew how to play football. So many people are saying "this is what you should be expecting because of all the rookies and uncertainties" but that only applies to the offense. The defense should not have been as bad as it was the first 4 weeks. Hopefully yesterday will be the beginning of the norm and not an outlier. Until we find out though, I don't think expecting the defense to look like they know how to play football when its base is supposed to include 7 veteran free agent signings, and a 2nd, 3rd, and 6th round pick all in their second years, constitutes a "magical turnaround."  (Poz is excluded from this tallying of the defense because he was already here, and on a large contract, when Dave got here, so he's the only one on the defense not handpicked by Dave. Therefore I don't count Poz' play against Dave.)

 

Edit: And to the "2 cast off CB" comment; Ball was signed within the first week of free agency and Blackmon was claimed off waivers (from a team with "such superior talent" to the Jags that he was let go because of a "logjam" we were told all last year.) last year. They're both in their second year on the team, playing the same role they did last year. That hardly classifies as "cast off." Its not like when the team signed Youboty in November, after he had been cut by the Bucs during final cuts, and then threw him out there as a starter.

Hey, just for funzzies, how has the defense done since halftime of the Colts game? 14 points to Luck, a pretty normal west coast trip against a super bowl contender that got a starter released, and 10 points to the Steelers. I'd say the look a lot better than weeks 1 and 2.

Quote:Unfortunately it's hard to find talent and when you do find it, you can't just let it walk away. Terrence Knighton and Daryl Smith are quality examples of that.

 

I have a hard time agreeing with this logic and so many board members keep posting it over and over and over . . . 

 

Knighton was a bust during his time in Jax. He played here 4 seasons. IIRC, in 3 of those 4 years he showed up to camp overweight, at times, grossly overweight. He had maybe one season that could be described as "above average", if that. He also had one season (Mularkey?) where his play got him relegated to the bench. Just because he went to Denver and turned it around doesn't mean he was ever going to play like that in Jacksonville. 

 

Knighton had a history of underperforming in Jacksonville and he was looking for a pay day. I can't fault Caldwell for letting him walk. The exact same logic goes for Rashad Jennings. 

 

(As a side note here - I do thoroughly enjoy all the people who routinely blasted these same picks by Gene Smith for years now saying that Caldwell should have kept them)

 

I was a huge fan of Daryl Smith (I think most of us were). But given his age, I can understand Caldwell letting him walk. We have no idea what kind of contract Smith wanted. Sure, he only got a one year contract in Baltimore, but does that mean he would have signed for something similar in Jax or did he accept the one year contract because no one was offering anything better? Given the limited information available at the time, again, I understand letting him go. 

 

I personally think Caldwell has been and is establishing a "work ethic" culture. If you underperform, you're gone. He did it with the FAs he let walk, and he's doing it with players that were on our roster at the beginning of the year. I don't remember if it's this thread or another one, but someone mentioned that he thought players weren't interested in playing hard for this team. I can see that. But I can also see Caldwell not accepting that "justification" for poor play. You perform, regardless of the teams reputation or other problem areas, or you're gone. (If Gerhart continues his poor play and remains on the team next season while the other RBs continue to improve, then I'll admit I was wrong).

Quote:I have a hard time agreeing with this logic and so many board members keep posting it over and over and over . . . 

 

Knighton was a bust during his time in Jax. He played here 4 seasons. IIRC, in 3 of those 4 years he showed up to camp overweight, at times, grossly overweight. He had maybe one season that could be described as "above average", if that. He also had one season (Mularkey?) where his play got him relegated to the bench. Just because he went to Denver and turned it around doesn't mean he was ever going to play like that in Jacksonville. 

 

Knighton had a history of underperforming in Jacksonville and he was looking for a pay day. I can't fault Caldwell for letting him walk. The exact same logic goes for Rashad Jennings. 

 

(As a side note here - I do thoroughly enjoy all the people who routinely blasted these same picks by Gene Smith for years now saying that Caldwell should have kept them)

 

I was a huge fan of Daryl Smith (I think most of us were). But given his age, I can understand Caldwell letting him walk. We have no idea what kind of contract Smith wanted. Sure, he only got a one year contract in Baltimore, but does that mean he would have signed for something similar in Jax or did he accept the one year contract because no one was offering anything better? Given the limited information available at the time, again, I understand letting him go. 

 

I personally think Caldwell has been and is establishing a "work ethic" culture. If you underperform, you're gone. He did it with the FAs he let walk, and he's doing it with players that were on our roster at the beginning of the year. I don't remember if it's this thread or another one, but someone mentioned that he thought players weren't interested in playing hard for this team. I can see that. But I can also see Caldwell not accepting that "justification" for poor play. You perform, regardless of the teams reputation or other problem areas, or you're gone. (If Gerhart continues his poor play and remains on the team next season while the other RBs continue to improve, then I'll admit I was wrong).

Knighton was NOT a bust. Are you kidding me? He was a DT whose sole purpose was to clog the line and he did exactly that. The reason he was so highly touted was that he also, occasionally, showed up on the stat sheet. Knighton showed up to camp overweight almost every year and, despite that, he still performed at a Pro Bowl level and showed off some incredible athleticism for a big man up until Mularkey came along and had his period and benched him for having a few bad games.

 

I can't believe anyone that has been watching Jaguars football would say Knighton was a bust when he was, at times, the best player on a fairly talented front seven.

 

As far as Denver goes, anyone that is watching both teams can see that Knighton isn't nearly as effective in their 3-4 as he was in our 4-3.

 

As far as Daryl Smith goes, there was absolutely no downside to resigning him assuming his contract details were on point considering there was no one to put in his place. This was a LB that could effectively play any of the LB positions at a high level.

We can rehash who should've stayed who shouldn't all day. I'm talking about the plan that is flawed. Any front office is going to make mistakes on who to let walk who to keep.


But Caldwell seems bent on building a team around a scheme, to me that just seems like we're setting ourselves up for failure. Build schemes around the team and change the scheme as you acquire talent.

Quote:When we hired Caldwell the plan was clear a total rebuild. Tear it all down, design a scheme, build a team around the scheme. Didn't matter if some players here where serviceable we where going to a zone blocking team on offense and a hybrid team on defense. Two years later and we are failing on both fronts miserably.


Maybe the problems not coaching or talent but an insistsnce on only bringing in players for a specific scheme. Why don't we or haven't we simply brought in talent and developed schemes around who we have.



To me the problem is at the top, that's Caldwell. It's not popular to say but who else is responsible for building this roster? Are we passing up talent because it doesn't fit out scheme? That's simply a luxury we can't afford. It also feels like a backwards way to go about building a franchise.

 

I think something more fundamental is being missed here.

 

Caldwell has been here two offseasons.

 

If we agree with the axiom that it is preferable to build through the draft, then let's look at the two drafts with which Caldwell has had to work.

 

This year, the team wound up with 9 picks (they had 11 after the Thomas, Monroe, and Gabbert trades, but utilized those picks in trades up.).

 

Last year, the team wound up with 8 picks.

 

If my math is right, that's a total of 19 picks gross and 17 picks net after the trades up this year.

 

Considering we've had a complete roster overhaul because we've gotten next to nothing from Gene Smith's drafts, does anyone honestly expect this or ANY team to get 17-19 quality starters-adequately filling holes on both sides of the ball-within two drafts?

 

Sub question:  does anyone expect this or ANY team to hit on 17-19 players in the draft in two offseasons and have them be immediately good with no rookie hiccups whatsoever, even operating under the generous assumption that all 17-19 picks eventually turn into quality starters?

 

For those who assert we should have kept those extra 4th and 6th round picks, does that mean you would be willing to do without Allen Robinson?

 

Did anyone expect all 17-19 drafted players to enjoy perfect health as they developed?

 

Now some have argued it was a mistake for the team to let players like Monroe, Smith and Knighton walk in free agency.

 

We had all three of those guys on the roster for the entirety of the Gene Smith era.  During that span, they produced ZERO (0) winning seasons.

 

If you assume we kept all three players, but also assume not every single one of the 17 draft picks would develop into quality starters without any rookie hiccups, why would we expect a winning record this year with those guys?

 

I know we want to win, but I'm not sure what the expectations were these first five weeks, especially given the early schedule we had.

 

Regarding the bringing in talent irrespective of coaching philosophy and somehow adjusting the philosophy to the talent, doing things that way makes it impossible to formulate any sort of identity at all.

 

If we drafted a 335 lb mauler in a G that works well in a phone booth but does not pull well, any play that would require pulling (traps, some sweeps/toss plays, screens) would have to be taken out of the playbook to accommodate him.   If we had one mauler and one pulling guard defenses could simply key on down, distance and personnel.

 

Think back to Bryce Paup for a minute.  Prior to coming to Jacksonville, Paup thrived and made pro bowls as a pass rushing OLB in a 3-4 defense.    His whole thing was going forward and disrupting the passer.  He comes to Jacksonville and he is placed as a 4-3 OLB where he was forced to drop into coverage against TEs, RBs, and in some instances of poor matchups, WRs.  The results were not good.  That was a classic instance of just acquiring talent without regard to whether the talent fit the scheme.

Quote:With respect to the 'plan', imho, yes it is flawed because it places far too much emphasis on youth over proven playmakers and on inexperienced coaches over proven winners. It's why I wanted Andy Reid.

I also don't like the precedent it has set for the franchise. On the other hand, a thorough house-cleaning was quite necessary given where things were.

The criticisms of so many on here while valid, don't recognize the tremendous progress that has been made in a very short period. It's just never fast enough because there has been alot of record suck around here, and it feels like same old same old.

And some of it is..

Blake Bortles is special, and while there will always be a debate about how he was held back by not starting the season, we didn't have to wait long. He's out there sinking and swimming. Gonna be very bumpy.

There is an obvious team discipline now that was severely lacking under JDR. He led the way toward sucking in every category. We didn't suck in every category today.

Other than the muffed punt, and one bad snap I think, we protected the football very well. (Int's excluded for the rook) That's pretty good.

They did what Gus said. They got better.

Except Hurns. But maybe he will surprise us next week.

Do you think Gus Bradley is a better coach than JDR?

Are these threads for real? Do these people know anything about football?

Quote:Are these threads for real? Do these people know anything about football?

I think people are simply tired of the losing.

 

I get it because I am too.

 

But simply being tired of the losing doesn't change the reality of the task before Caldwell-both when he started and now.

Quote:Do you think Gus Bradley is a better coach than JDR?

 

We really have no reason to believe he is, or even can be.

Quote:I think something more fundamental is being missed here.

 

Caldwell has been here two offseasons.

 

If we agree with the axiom that it is preferable to build through the draft, then let's look at the two drafts with which Caldwell has had to work.

 

This year, the team wound up with 9 picks (they had 11 after the Thomas, Monroe, and Gabbert trades, but utilized those picks in trades up.).

 

Last year, the team wound up with 8 picks.

 

If my math is right, that's a total of 19 picks gross and 17 picks net after the trades up this year.

 

Considering we've had a complete roster overhaul because we've gotten next to nothing from Gene Smith's drafts, does anyone honestly expect this or ANY team to get 17-19 quality starters-adequately filling holes on both sides of the ball-within two drafts?

 

Sub question:  does anyone expect this or ANY team to hit on 17-19 players in the draft in two offseasons and have them be immediately good with no rookie hiccups whatsoever, even operating under the generous assumption that all 17-19 picks eventually turn into quality starters?

 

For those who assert we should have kept those extra 4th and 6th round picks, does that mean you would be willing to do without Allen Robinson?

 

Did anyone expect all 17-19 drafted players to enjoy perfect health as they developed?

 

Now some have argued it was a mistake for the team to let players like Monroe, Smith and Knighton walk in free agency.

 

We had all three of those guys on the roster for the entirety of the Gene Smith era.  During that span, they produced ZERO (0) winning seasons.

 

If you assume we kept all three players, but also assume not every single one of the 17 draft picks would develop into quality starters without any rookie hiccups, why would we expect a winning record this year with those guys?

 

I know we want to win, but I'm not sure what the expectations were these first five weeks, especially given the early schedule we had.

 

Regarding the bringing in talent irrespective of coaching philosophy and somehow adjusting the philosophy to the talent, doing things that way makes it impossible to formulate any sort of identity at all.

 

If we drafted a 335 lb mauler in a G that works well in a phone booth but does not pull well, any play that would require pulling (traps, some sweeps/toss plays, screens) would have to be taken out of the playbook to accommodate him.   If we had one mauler and one pulling guard defenses could simply key on down, distance and personnel.

 

Think back to Bryce Paup for a minute.  Prior to coming to Jacksonville, Paup thrived and made pro bowls as a pass rushing OLB in a 3-4 defense.    His whole thing was going forward and disrupting the passer.  He comes to Jacksonville and he is placed as a 4-3 OLB where he was forced to drop into coverage against TEs, RBs, and in some instances of poor matchups, WRs.  The results were not good.  That was a classic instance of just acquiring talent without regard to whether the talent fit the scheme.

 some here will tell you if you have good enough talent then the scheme doesn't matter...

On Defense they need more Zone Blitzs packages and maybe even subsitute the OLB with Andre Branch on occasion.  The Offense needs to run with Storm Johnson more, especially screen passes and take more chances throwing deep down the field.

Quote:Do you think Gus Bradley is a better coach than JDR?

I do think he is better, but that's not saying much.


What worries me most is that they are both supposedly defensive coaches that put teams on the field that have poor tackling fundamentals.


Gus has improved the team considerably from where we were. The jury is still out...Bortles just got in there. We'll know more by season's end, and by this time next year. He's not going anywhere imo.