I'd like for someone to explain to me HOW the confederate flag is a symbol of racism?
Is it because the KKK uses it? If that's the case is the fist in the air a symbol of racism because the Black Panthers use it?
Quote:I'd like for someone to explain to me HOW the confederate flag is a symbol of racism?
Is it because the KKK uses it? If that's the case is the fist in the air a symbol of racism because the Black Panthers use it?
You should start a thread about the black panthers if you think they're worth talking about.
As for how the flag is a symbol of racism, it was the battle flag of a group of states that fought a war over their "right" to own human beings as slaves. That's what the civil war was about. The idea that the symbol of that war fought over the desire to own people as property is anything other than a symbol for that cause is silly.
If black people can co-opt it and neutralize it that will be great, but for now it still is what it is, a symbol of hate.
Quote:What would you call neutral? The NY Times? <a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/opinion/18rich.html'>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/opinion/18rich.html</a>
How about a university publication? <a class="bbc_url" href='http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slavery06a.htm'>http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slavery06a.htm</a>
That's a hit piece from the left. He starts by excoriating the right and then suggests that anyone who doesn't support ACA is racist. Really? What a race baiter.
Quote:You should start a thread about the black panthers if you think they're worth talking about.
As for how the flag is a symbol of racism, it was the battle flag of a group of states that fought a war over their "right" to own human beings as slaves. That's what the civil war was about. The idea that the symbol of that war fought over the desire to own people as property is anything other than a symbol for that cause is silly.
If black people can co-opt it and neutralize it that will be great, but for now it still is what it is, a symbol of hate.
The point about the raised fist gesture is a fair comparison to the confederate flag.
And no the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states being allowed to leave the union or not. Even Lincoln said several times he had no intentions of freeing slaves and certainly didn't trump the rights of blacks as equals. Slavery was a product of the time, you'd find it in every nation on the planet during that time period, no one's justifying it. But to say the civil war was about states wanting to own other human beings as slaves is naive at best. The Civil War was an extremely complex war fought over MANY issues.
Quote:The point about the raised fist gesture is a fair comparison to the confederate flag.
And no the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states being allowed to leave the union or not. Even Lincoln said several times he had no intentions of freeing slaves and certainly didn't trump the rights of blacks as equals. Slavery was a product of the time, you'd find it in every nation on the planet during that time period, no one's justifying it. But to say the civil war was about states wanting to own other human beings as slaves is naive at best. The Civil War was an extremely complex war fought over MANY issues.
Like I said, go ahead and start the black panthers thread if you want to talk about them.
As for the beliefs you're stating for the reasoning of the civil war, it's simply incorrect, go back and read the links I posted.
The secession was for one thing, the right of racist bigot southerners to be able to continue owning other human beings as property.
Quote:Like I said, go ahead and start the black panthers thread if you want to talk about them.
As for the beliefs you're stating for the reasoning of the civil war, it's simply incorrect, go back and read the links I posted.
The secession was for one thing, the right of racist bigot southerners to be able to continue owning other human beings as property.
I'd post links proving you wrong but you'd just refuse to read them.
edit:
here let me try, this is from the history channel a pretty neutral review of history
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you...ancipation
After reading that explain to me why if Lincoln didn't even really care about slavery would he go to war over slavery?
Quote:I'd post links proving you wrong but you'd just refuse to read them.
edit:
here let me try, this is from the history channel a pretty neutral review of history
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you...ancipation
After reading that explain to me why if Lincoln didn't even really care about slavery would he go to war over slavery?
So, wait a second, are you claiming that Lincoln's motivation was the confederacy's motivation?
Quote:So, wait a second, are you claiming that Lincoln's motivation was the confederacy's motivation?
Lincoln wasn't an abolitionist, he didn't go the war with the south to free Blacks from the "racist bigot southerners" he went to war because he believed the union was insolvable and that states had no authority to succeed.
Quote:Lincoln wasn't an abolitionist, he didn't go the war with the south to free Blacks from the "racist bigot southerners" he went to war because he believed the union was insolvable and that states had no authority to succeed.
So your roundabout justification of your notion that the southern succession motive wasn't about slavery is that Lincoln's motive in fighting the civil war wasn't to abolish slavery?
weat:
Lincoln fought for the preservation of the union. That much should be clear to anybody who has a basic understanding of U.S. History.
Slavery was a contributing factor to the Civil War -- but the war was caused by the economic and social differences between the North and South. Slavery was certainly a contributing factor to that -- but through the causes of economic and social differences.
Does it matter if the confederate flag is racist or not? For one thing, Fredericksburg VA is steeped with Civil War History, and people living there likely have ancestors who fought for the confederacy at some point or another.
But look at the Skokie Case. I'm sure if you've taken a History class at some point in your life you've heard about it.
To quote an organization that I don't really like most of the time --
" We do not defend them because we agree with them; rather, we defend their right to free expression and free assembly. Historically, the people whose opinions are the most controversial or extreme are the people whose rights are most often threatened. Once the government has the power to violate one person's rights, it can use that power against everyone"
I will say this however, while I don't think the "confederate" flag is a symbol of racism or everyone displaying it holds racist values I do UNDERSTAND why some feel that way.
I think everyone here knows by now I'm a pretty big "anti-federalist" but I don't go around flying confederate flags, I think there are other flags that better represent my anti-federalism sentiments than old dixi.
I still stand firm the Civil War was about so much more than just slavery, but much like class warfare is used today to divide and conquer the issue of slavery was used to divide a nation during that time.
Quote:I will say this however, while I don't think the "confederate" flag is a symbol of racism or everyone displaying it holds racist values I do UNDERSTAND why some feel that way.
I think everyone here knows by now I'm a pretty big "anti-federalist" but I don't go around flying confederate flags, I think there are other flags that better represent my anti-federalism sentiments than old dixi.
I still stand firm the Civil War was about so much more than just slavery, but much like class warfare is used today to divide and conquer the issue of slavery was used to divide a nation during that time.
BOOM. That is the best point anyone has made in this thread. The left side has absolutely no interest in understanding how or why others feel a certain way. If they deem something racist, it MUST be racist. To heck with any other beliefs.
The war may not have been exclusively about slavery, but it was the tipping point and the major factor in the debate over states rights. It all festered and ultimately burst over the issue of not allowing slavery in new states.
Quote:The war may not have been exclusively about slavery, but it was the tipping point and the major factor in the debate over states rights. It all festered and ultimately burst over the issue of not allowing slavery in new states.
It was a power struggle, the slave states feared the new states if forced to side with non-slave states would hold a legislative advantage over them. If they where out numbered 2-1 in congress they'd be voiceless in any legislation including slavery, tariffs, and so on. The Southern States where being chocked economically, yes slavery was a tipping point but because their economy (agriculture) at the time was dependent on the labor (not justifying it for the record).
I agree with Eric and a couple of other users on here. Why should someone not be allowed to fly Old Dixie on their property? The fact that this is even an issue is very disturbing and shows how the Government is trying to advance its control and germination over people's basic liberties.
I agree 100% with what Eric said. A lot of times the Government will use issues like these to divide the populace and make us more controllable. Because the one thing that every Politician in Washington fears more than anything is a unified political force consisting of both the Left and the Right.
When I see it, I think racism and slavery.
That's what the symbol means to me, at this point.
When I see someone with a flag with the original 13 colonies, I'll buy that it is displayed to display someone's "heritage."
I guess it also stands for resounding and complete defeat.
This reeks of "They hate us for our freedom."
Quote:This reeks of "They hate us for our freedom."
Everyone has the freedom to do whatever they want and people have the freedom to criticize them and assume things about them that may or may not be true.
Quote:Everyone has the freedom to do whatever they want and people have the freedom to criticize them and assume things about them that may or may not be true.
I think he's refering to the knee jerk reaction of the public. After 9/11 the "they hate us because of our freedom" was used to push us into 2 wars and to pass countless legislation restricting our freedom. The very people trumping they hate our freedom where the one's passing legislation to take your freedom.
In that same manor there is a knee jerk reaction to the rebel flag.