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Quote:Also, Dakota, are you implying that you think the mother should be charged with murder? If so, at what stage in the pregnancy should this charge be administered? Conception? 2nd Trimester? 3rd Trimester?

 

Sure I'll answer in the 2nd trimester it's murder.

 

Personally I hate ALL abortion but in the 2nd trimester you can't even scientifically deny it's a life you're ending. 

Quote:Several world renown medical ethicists support post birth termination in several cases based on "Quality of life" factors.

 

Including Obama who supports partial birth murder, and post birth murder. 

Quote:Ok, well I'm asking you. What do you think the penalty should be for a woman having an abortion? And at what stage of the pregnancy should that penalty be administered?

 

Why should the woman be charged at all?  It's the Doctor that's doing any 'killing'.  The woman just agreed to it.

Quote:What's wrong with aborting the fetus in cases of non-viable pregnancies, especially in those that can cause serious harm/death to the woman (ie. ectopic)? Pretty sick if you think that a woman should have to suffer through the complications of an ectopic pregnancy.

 

And, yes, I can scientifically deny that a 2nd trimester fetus is not a living being.

 

If you can qualify bacteria as a living organism how the hell can you deny a fetus in the 2nd trimester isn't a living organism? 

 

edit: you're trying to cite such a small percentage of abortions for justification for the overwhelmingly convince abortion. But playing your little game

 

ectopic pregnancies usually happen within the first few weeks of pregnancy, are usually diagnosed by the 8th week of pregnancy. Ending abortions in the 2nd trimester doesn't change the termination of ectopic pregancy. It's pretty sick you want to pretend abortion isn't used as a form of birth control 70% of the time.

Quote:I don't think either should be charged in certain cases. I also think assisted suicide should be legal in certain cases.

 

Two completely different scenarios, one is a decision by an individual to end their own life, another is a decision to end a third parties life.

Quote:Eric, we already went through 5 pages of this in a different thread (or was it this one). I'm not doing it again. All of the medical literature I've read classifies the fetus as a non-living being. This is scientific and peer reviewed literature taught to medical professionals around the world. If you want to disagree because of your religion, that's fine, but there are medical experts much smarter than you or I that making these calls. Having these circular "debates" is pointless.

 

Medical literature also taught leeching and bleeding as viable solutions for ending disease. 

 

Your faith in medical literature is no more dependent on belief then faith in any religious text. 

Quote:Well, it is irresponsible to refer to a fetus as a living being. I am a Sonographer, so I deal with viable and non-viable pregnancies more than any doctor that isn't an obstetrician. I've studied a an abundance of medical literature on pregnancies and none of them ever refer to the fetus as a "child" or "living" or "dead".

 



 

 

 

This book I posted, is 1,000+ pages of text focusing on just OB/GYN. It covers fetal demise way more extensive than anyone cares to know. Nowhere, in that book or any of the others, use the terms I quoted above.

 

 

Also, you work in the finance department? Let me know when they start giving out Medical Record Numbers to fetuses in utero. I'll wait.

 

Funny, I got a bill for my son, in his name and posted to his account, for a fetal stress test adjudicated as valid by BCBS.

 

Question: When you are doing the sono and you show the images to the mother do you actually say, " And here's your fetus's head" or some such? Every one we've ever had the sonographer used the term "baby", but you seem to say that isn't proper. 

Quote:Eric, I'm not surprised you failed to acknowledge ectopic and other non-viable pregnancies. If you hate all abortion, how can you support terminating those pregnancies?

 

I don't support any abortions. I'm answering your question, at what point should abortion be considered legally murder. In the 2nd trimester the "fetus" as you called it as working organs, a developed face, head, brain, eyes, sex organs, and so on. The 2nd trimester evaluations for your outlier cases like ectopic pregnancies have been given time to be addressed. there's no excuse for abortions after the 2nd trimester. 

 

I had to face this same situation with our 3rd child. The doctor told us the "fetus" had a problem and literally pressured us in the ER to immediately begin the DNR or my wife's life was in danger. Well what do you know my healthy Noah and wife are still here today but the medical professionals tried to pressure us into murdering my son. I can't say the words I feel about those professionals on this board..........

Quote:Pathetic attempt at a strawman.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ultrasonography-Ob...1416032649

 

This is not a book discussing "leeching and bleeding". This is modern-day, western medicine, peer reviewed, scientific literature on Obstetrics and Gynecology. It is extremely credible, regardless of whether you want to acknowledge that.

 

you missed the point, medical literature has been wrong plenty of times. medical literature is also susceptible to political pressures. medical literature also once taught that the blood of blacks and whites where different because of political pressure. 

 

I can give you countless examples on where medical literature has been influenced by culture and political pressure of its time. Abortion is no different, your books don't refer to it as a baby because that challenges the argument of late term abortions. 

Quote:So in the cases of ectopic pregnancies, you believe nothing should be done to terminate the pregnancy? You need to stop discussing the subject matter if you seriously believe that.

 

Aren't most ectopic pregnancies identified before the second trimester?

Quote:So in the cases of ectopic pregnancies, you believe nothing should be done to terminate the pregnancy? You need to stop discussing the subject matter if you seriously believe that.

 

That's ALL addressed in the FIRST trimester, If it's up to me and my wife I can tell you what WE would do. However I've conceded that in the FIRST trimester there are outlier cases like ectopic pregnancy where abortion should be legally permissible.

Quote:Yes. He is stating that he is against all abortions. An ectopic pregnancy has no chance of progressing to term and has an EXTREMELY high maternal mortality rate. If you have a fetus developing in the fallopian tube (where it's not suppose to be), once it gets to a certain point it will rupture. When that rupture occurs, there is a very high chance of maternal death.

 

I don't see how anyone could be against terminating the tubal-pregnancy. It simply makes no sense.

 

No I said after the 2nd trimester all abortion should be legally considered murder. 

 

I said PERSONALLY I don't support ANY abortions, but legally in the 2nd trimester your rare cases like the "tubal-pregnancy" have been given time to be addressed. 

Quote:Okay, you are playing cat and mouse. I'm going to put more stock into scientific, peer reviewed, medical literature than I am the opinion of a car mechanic. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm going to side with what I've been taught in my profession.

 

Go ahead and dodge the reality your "medical literature" is far from flawless and proven time after time to be influenced heavily by culture and politics. This car mechanic isn't claiming to know it all, but you asked a question and I answered it. You then tried to use outlier cases to discredit my answer but they have nothing to do with 2nd term abortions. 

Quote:I said tell me when hospitals give Medical Record Numbers to in-utero fetuses. I'll wait.

 

I often dumb down a lot of the terminology I use when discussing exams with patients. I'll never tell a patient their "baby" is alive, though. I will show them the heart beat and tell them the heart rate, but I won't tell them the "baby"  is alive.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't know hospital MRNs were more special than physician's offices MRNs. 

Quote:Right. And I'm saying that I can't fathom a reason anyone would "PERSONALLY" be against terminating a tubal pregnancy. It makes no sense.

 

That has to do with our religion and personal belief of when life begins. What I personally believe is different from what I legally support. 

Quote:Yes. He is stating that he is against all abortions. An ectopic pregnancy has no chance of progressing to term and has an EXTREMELY high maternal mortality rate. If you have a fetus developing in the fallopian tube (where it's not suppose to be), once it gets to a certain point it will rupture. When that rupture occurs, there is a very high chance of maternal death.

 

I don't see how anyone could be against terminating the tubal-pregnancy. It simply makes no sense.

 

That's how I understood them to be. I also think Eric isn't opposed to termination in those cases.

Quote:I often dumb down a lot of the terminology I use when discussing exams with patients. I'll never tell a patient their "baby" is alive, though. I will show them the heart beat and tell them the heart rate, but I won't tell them the "baby"  is alive.

 

So, in your opinion/in the text, what qualifies a fetus/baby as being alive?

Quote:Birth.

 

Personally, I'm against abortion (in most cases) if the fetus is capable of sustaining life. I would not be opposed to outlawing abortion in 2nd and 3rd term pregnancies if there were no maternal health risks involved.

 

Ok, I don't agree with that but I understand it. What makes that tough for me is, for instance, I have a nephew who was born prematurely at 34 weeks. When we use birth as the litmus, isn't saying that another fetus, conceived on the same day as my nephew, but still in utero at 34 weeks +1 day is not actually alive because of his location kind of absurd? I think your own position on abortions follows that same logic, a healty viable fetus at 34 weeks should have some protection as a person/potential person, however you consider him.

It's interesting that we have an overwhelming majority of men here discussing what women should be able to do with their bodies.

Quote:Well, it is irresponsible to refer to a fetus as a living being. I am a Sonographer, so I deal with viable and non-viable pregnancies more than any doctor that isn't an obstetrician. I've studied a an abundance of medical literature on pregnancies and none of them ever refer to the fetus as a "child" or "living" or "dead".

 



 

 

 

This book I posted, is 1,000+ pages of text focusing on just OB/GYN. It covers fetal demise way more extensive than anyone cares to know. Nowhere, in that book or any of the others, use the terms I quoted above.

 

 

Also, you work in the finance department? Let me know when they start giving out Medical Record Numbers to fetuses in utero. I'll wait.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but aren't these peer-reviewed just opinion pieces? If everyone of them simply changed their minds, then it wouldn't be OK, right?

 

I'm not going to pretend to think I can keep up with you on the medical jargon, but isn't "death" (or the similar) defined as a stop in all coronary and neurological activity? If the fetus has a heart beat in the 1st trimester, then wouldn't the fetus, by your definition, be alive?

 

 

Quote:It's interesting that we have an overwhelming majority of men here discussing what women should be able to do with their bodies.

 

That's such an easy response. The argument is that they're killing someone else's body. In the same way that children can't defend themselves, those that oppose abortion feel like they're doing the same thing.