Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

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Quote:Because people keep asking how a QB can possibly progress if he isn't thrown to the field in games right away.

There's a clear answer to the question staring us in the face.

Don't really see how Aaron Rodgers is the answer to that question. Plus, the actual question is how much can a QB progress without being on the field, not how. I think most will agree that Bortles will learn a lot of things when he gets on the field (whenever that is) that he couldn't learn from the sidelines.

Quote:Maybe Gabbert would have panned out had he been able to sit as originally planned. Del Rio caved to pressure almost instantly because he was concerned about keeping his job. In the end, it was a series of stupid decisions that cost him his job, this being one of them.

If Henne goes down in the preseason, and the team doesn't look to sign another veteran QB, then it's between Stanzi and Bortles. As unfortunate at it would be for his development, Bortles should win that battle.

So you think they keep 3 QBs?

If they are truly adamant about Bortles sitting the full year, seems like they gotta keep 3.

Quote:Don't really see how Aaron Rodgers is the answer to that question. Plus, the actual question is how much can a QB progress without being on the field, not how. I think most will agree that Bortles will learn a lot of things when he gets on the field (whenever that is) that he couldn't learn from the sidelines.

So a quarterback who was able to step on the field and play with the polish of an 8 year vet his first year as a starter and showed incredible improvement in arm strength and accuracy from his college days doesn't demonstrate that you can improveby standing on the sidelines?

Alrighty.

Quote:Rodgers is garbage every preseason. its the preseason. it doesnt matter. do you know who aaron rodgers is?

Yes, I went I have a lot of family that went to Cal. I watched him in person in college and in the pros. I specifically watched him in 2005 and 2006 in the preseason because of his connections to Cal. He didn't have a clue. He couldn't get to his 3rd progression. His arm strength between the time he came out of college and where it is today is night and day.

Since you are an Aaron Rodgers expert, tell me more about your specific observations of his 2006 preseason.

Quote:what?

......"POSITIVES: Athletic passer with the physical skills and mental intangibles needed to lead a franchise at the next level. Quickly sets up in the pocket, sells ball fakes and technically very sound. Poised under the rush, steps up to avoid defenders and works to keep the play alive. Patient, buys time in the pocket and waits for receivers to come free. Does an excellent job with his reads and natural looking off the safety. Does not make mental errors and throws the ball away rather than toss the errant pass. Times the short and intermediate throws well, as receivers rarely wait for the ball out of their breaks. Outstanding vision and immediately spots the open receiver. Possesses a quick release, live arm and zips the outs or gets the ball downfield. Throws with touch. Sits in the pocket and takes a big hit in order to get the pass off. Fleet-footed and picks up yardage with his legs when necessary.

That's a nice writeup from InternetWannaScout.com. Great resource.

Let's get it straight from Rodger's mouth how he redeveloped his throwing motion from his rookie year....

The time away from the limelight allowed Rodgers to make a few natural adjustments in his delivery.

"It's really where I carried the ball," Rodgers said. "It's not a conscious thing. We were drilled every day at Cal to hold the ball high and were drilled in the way our arm dropped. When I got to the NFL, we weren't doing that every day. It came up with a more natural position."

"As that happened, my release point was able to center up a little better," Rodgers said. "I became way more consistent with my release point. The more consistent you are with your release point, the more accurate you are. Coming out in the draft, my release was kind of the knock on me. I had no problem with my release point coming back down. Once it did, I felt the accuracy was back. Once I got to a more natural point, I was throwing like it was in high school."

"Aaron has a very strong arm and really always has," McCarthy said. "We dropped his ball carriage. He had a very high one when he came out. Now, it's a little more fluid and that helps him transition more into the movement part of it. He's very fundamentally strong. He's clearly one of the better guys I've had the opportunity to work with."



The alteration of Rodgers' throw started when he was a rookie in 2005, so he shouldn't develop any arm troubles because he's been throwing with the more natural motion for almost three years.



...Tedford vouches for the changes he made to his throwing motion....







When Rodgers entered the NFL draft after his junior season, there was a lot of debate about whether he would need retraining on his throwing motion because when his right arm settled into the cocked position it looked awkward.

When he instructed Rodgers to hold the ball on the shelf, Tedford noticed that his pupil's right elbow was cocked way up to the point that his upper arm was parallel to the ground. Tedford wasn't sure why Rodgers did it that way, but when he saw him throw the ball, he decided to let it go.

"His back arm was up a little higher," Tedford said. "I don't know why. We talked about having the ball there, maybe he just over-exaggerated it and that's where it stuck.

Quote:So a quarterback who was able to step on the field and play with the polish of an 8 year vet his first year as a starter and showed incredible improvement in arm strength and accuracy from his college days doesn't demonstrate that you can improveby standing on the sidelines?

Alrighty.

You're making up the other side of your own argument.

Plus you're apparently answering a question that begins in how, with the name of a person. But I'll overlook that.

I don't recall anyone here suggest that a player can't be developed off the field by coaches. It doesn't even make sense. And also, are you suggesting that this development process should take 3 years?

He will be behind in some aspects, but I have no doubt that sitting will help him fix his footwork as fast as possible. Thats his main issue. Let him get that hammered out and then progress with game reps from there.

Quote:We're being told Blake Bortles is being given time to develop this season, while Henne leads the team through the campaign. The right decision.

But assuming it turns out that way and Bortles isn't suddenly thrust into the action, what are the limits of learning from the sideline ?

He'll get the chance to learn the playbook, work with experienced players and have his mechanics tweaked by the coaches. But are there some things you can only learn from competitive matches ?

Or can 99% of it be leant without leaving the training field ?

They want to have him master the basics before being thrust into action. I know there is a push to make it more than that, but in it's simplest form, that's what it is. They want him to know the playbook and know it well. They want to coach out some kinks that they see with his play, and then they will turn him loose.

Just have to be patient.

Quote:And also, are you suggesting that this development process should take 3 years?

It should take as long as it needs to take. The future of the franchise depends on getting it right. It will certainly need the better part of his rookie year. McCarthy thought Rodgers was ready to start his 2nd year.

Coach Mike McCarthy arrived in Rodgers’s second season, and he recognized the talent that spent Sundays holding clipboards. Since 1993, McCarthy has charted quarterbacks in five footwork drills that rate agility and movement. In his three backup seasons, Rodgers improved most in those areas, McCarthy said, to where he now ranks “at the top of all of them.”

In what McCarthy calls his Quarterback School, Rodgers concentrated on tuning his fine motor skills: hand-eye coordination, finger dexterity, mechanics. He also lowered where he held the ball for a smoother, more consistent motion.

By the end of Rodgers’s second year, McCarthy and Thompson saw him as a starter who happened not to start. With his quarterback coach, Tom Clements, Rodgers studied every play from the Packers’ previous season. He also took the spring practice repetitions when Favre stayed home in Mississippi.

Between Rodgers’s second and third seasons, Quarterback School consisted of 10 hours in the film room and 3 hours on the practice field a week, an offensive study conducted in “painstaking detail,” Clements said.



Eventually, Rodgers focused less on learning the Packers’ offense and more on clarifying why defenses ran certain coverages, schemes or fronts. Now, when Rodgers drops back to pass, he does not look for his receivers. He looks for defenders, where they are, where they might move, what that means or could mean. Then he throws for receivers headed toward open space.

The way he practiced behind Favre also earned Rodgers the respect of teammates. While Favre retired and unretired and eventually left for the Jets in 2008, Rodgers and Clements studied every pass Tom Brady threw in his record-setting 2007 season. Rodgers took note of how Brady “controlled the defense with his eyes” on nearly every completed pass.

Quote:I think he'd be ok but why put him in that situation? So much youth.

I'd rather the team stick to what they have been telling all the time, let the kid learn on the sideline for a year. It's better to err on the safer side.

I don't like Rogers' comparison, it is too much to ask for, the guy is the best QB in NFL.

Every scout can tell you, Bortles is not NFL ready, but he does have the tools to be a good NFL QB. Just don't rush him!

Quote:If McCown didn't

And Garrard didn't have a broken back and hefty contract, maybe he would have sat a year.

(but would he have been any good?)

And who plays if Henne goes down in the preseason?

Theres always a veteran QB out there on the street. He may not be good, but it beats the alternative of rushing Bortles out there before hes' ready.

Quote:Maybe Gabbert would have panned out had he been able to sit as originally planned. Del Rio caved to pressure almost instantly because he was concerned about keeping his job. In the end, it was a series of stupid decisions that cost him his job, this being one of them.

If Henne goes down in the preseason, and the team doesn't look to sign another veteran QB, then it's between Stanzi and Bortles. As unfortunate at it would be for his development, Bortles should win that battle.

see above

Quote:He'll learn the invaluable lesson of how to throw 3 tipped balls a game, how to shine in garbage time, and how to never throw more touchdowns than interceptions for an entire career.

Without reading the rest of this post, this is clearly the opinion of someone that has absolutely no clue.

Quote:Without reading the rest of this post, this is clearly the opinion of someone that has absolutely no clue.

And ...

Quote:Question. Why does everyone keep bringing up Rodgers? Is anyone suggesting Bortles sit for 3 years?? And how long does Aaron Rodgers sit if Chad Henne is the starter? Aaron Rodgers isn't remotely close to the Jaguars situation right now. The Aaron Rodgers situation is having a hall of fame QB and drafting another in the first round. The Patriots are attempting to do what GB did, not us, but they had to settle for a 2nd rounder.

Did I say sit him for 3 years? It doesn't take that long to rework a QB's mechanics. Rodgers probably could have started his second year. I bring up Rodger's because I see where Bortles is at right now in terms of his development and his natural tools as being really similar to Rodger's coming out of Cal, except Bortles brings the tools in a bigger box. Bortles has to work on the same things Rodgers did, and he will be running a system similar to Rodgers. I think once fully developed, Bortles will be a very similar QB to Rodgers except bigger.

Quote:People keep fixating on Henne. In all honesty, Bortles progression, and when he starts has nothing to do with Henne. The similarity with Rodgers is the fact that he sat. Nobody is suggesting Bortles sit for 3 years. Nor are they trying to portray Henne as Favre.

I also see a lot of similarities in their playing styles and the way Bortles will be used in our system is similar to GB's West Coast system.

After reading the rest of this thread, it's obvious that some people don't understand what it means to develop a player. There are quite a few people that are sure quick to downplay and bad mouth Chad Henne because he isn't an "elite" quarterback in the NFL. The word "elite" gets thrown around quite a bit.

Henne isn't a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc. quarterback, but he is an NFL quarterback. That should count for something. The man has managed to make it in this league, and has done so with less-than good talent around him. He is a veteran and can pass on what he knows and what he has learned to the young rookie.

Think of it this way. Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or any other quarterback behind last year's offense and tell me that they would have "lighted it up" and been a star. A quarterback is only as good as his supporting cast and that includes the other ten men on the field with him.

Bortles is going to learn what it's like to game plan, react to game situations and deal with victory and defeat behind a veteran quarterback. The veteran quarterback might not be a fan favorite, but he's still a veteran quarterback.

You can't learn everything from experience. I had a coach once who told me "your football life will be very short if you try to learn on the field what can be learned in the film room."

Regards....................the Chiefjag

Quote:You can't learn everything from experience. I had a coach once who told me "your football life will be very short if you try to learn on the field what can be learned in the film room."

Regards....................the Chiefjag

...dont' tell that to some of the "macho's" posting in this thread.

Mr Sensible thinks otherwise.

The "JDR mentality."

Quote:After reading the rest of this thread, it's obvious that some people don't understand what it means to develop a player. There are quite a few people that are sure quick to downplay and bad mouth Chad Henne because he isn't an "elite" quarterback in the NFL. The word "elite" gets thrown around quite a bit.

Henne isn't a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc. quarterback, but he is an NFL quarterback. That should count for something. The man has managed to make it in this league, and has done so with less-than good talent around him. He is a veteran and can pass on what he knows and what he has learned to the young rookie.

Think of it this way. Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or any other quarterback behind last year's offense and tell me that they would have "lighted it up" and been a star. A quarterback is only as good as his supporting cast and that includes the other ten men on the field with him.

Bortles is going to learn what it's like to game plan, react to game situations and deal with victory and defeat behind a veteran quarterback. The veteran quarterback might not be a fan favorite, but he's still a veteran quarterback.

Tom Brady won three Super Bowls with nobody at WR. He is an elite QB. He makes those around him better. Henne may not have had much to work with last year, but he was at or near the bottom in pretty much every passing category.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/passing.htm'>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/passing.htm</a>

Quote:Ask Aaron Rodgers.

Exactly. Trust the draft but not the process. Let them work their plan and quit being all butt hurt over stupid topics. Jesus. We just watched out last top pick go to crap. Let's do that again.

Quote:...dont' tell that to some of the "macho's" posting in this thread.

Mr Sensible thinks otherwise.

The "JDR mentality."

Or the Ozzie newsome mentality. He started Flacco right away.

You can't have it just your way. This "debate" goes both ways. There isn't a proven method so acting like your opinion is the only solution is wrong. I've said it a million times but both have worked and both have failed.

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