Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:After reading the rest of this thread, it's obvious that some people don't understand what it means to develop a player.  There are quite a few people that are sure quick to downplay and bad mouth Chad Henne because he isn't an "elite" quarterback in the NFL.  The word "elite" gets thrown around quite a bit.

 

Henne isn't a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc. quarterback, but he is an NFL quarterback.  That should count for something.  The man has managed to make it in this league, and has done so with less-than good talent around him.  He is a veteran and can pass on what he knows and what he has learned to the young rookie.

 

Think of it this way.  Put Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or any other quarterback behind last year's offense and tell me that they would have "lighted it up" and been a star.  A quarterback is only as good as his supporting cast and that includes the other ten men on the field with him.

 

Bortles is going to learn what it's like to game plan, react to game situations and deal with victory and defeat behind a veteran quarterback.  The veteran quarterback might not be a fan favorite, but he's still a veteran quarterback.

 

Football fans in general don't understand the concept or value of the 'pretty good' QB.  They think there's about 8-10 "elite" guys, and then you can just throw everyone else in the same trash barrel as worthless garbage.    I saw this last year when everyone was pointing and laughing at the Chiefs for trading for Alex Smith.     Or they don't truly understand the malignant effect of having awful QBs.   They think an awful QB is the guy who throws an interception on a potential game winning drive.  That's not awful QB play.   When you have awful QB play there is no potential game winning drive situation.   It's all encompassing ineptitude.    When you have awful QB play, it sabotages your entire franchise.      You can't develop and evaluate your WRs because your QB can't go through his progressions and accurately throw he ball to them.    You can't evaluate your runningbacks or offensive linemen because defenses teams can stack 8 or 9 in the box.       You can't honestly evaluate your defense because they get worn down being on the field the entire game because your offense can't sustain a drive and time of possession.   You can't develop and groom young QBs properly because you're constantly sabotaging their careers throwing them out there because "they can't be any worse than this guy).   Most importantly, you have The Cleveland Browns effect, where your franchise sits in a perpetual state of instability flux  and in a constant  negative feedback loop of of firing, hiring head coaches and discarding and implementing new systems and schemes and players that fit into them every 3 years.  

 

I don't know what the ceiling is with  is with the Jaguars and Henne.  Probably 8 wins, maybe 9 or 10 if the Jags gets exceedingly lucky.  He's had 7 win seasons on some awful Dolphin teams coached by Tony friggin Sparano.   I do know know Henne provides a floor.     I saw enough in the second half of last year to know he's not   Brodie Croyle, Brady Quinn, Curtis Painter or Brandon Wheedon level of bad that I described above.  He's going to complete ~60% of his passes, he's going to put up about a 75-85 passer rating, he's going to run the offense, sustain some drives and the Jags are going to get a chance to develop some of their younger offensive players, and then he'll hand it off to Bortles when he's ready.  Evidently Caldwell and Gus see the same thing, which is why Henne is back as the starter for another year.  

Quote:Tom Brady won three Super Bowls with nobody at WR. He is an elite QB. He makes those around him better. Henne may not have had much to work with last year, but he was at or near the bottom in pretty much every passing category.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/passing.htm'>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/passing.htm</a>

 

You've convinced me ... Henne is DEFINITELY not Tom Brady.  Great points.    Keep up the good work.  

 

FWIW,  Henne's ANY/YA  was better than Joe Flacco  last year.  If you don't like advanced metrics and want to stick to old school, he had a higher comp%, int%, and passer rating than Joe Flacco.  

 

 I guess Joe Flacco would be deemed  unworthy for your high standards for a 1 year bridge QB too?     You are a man of discriminating tastes!!

I think it depends on the QB.  Each circumstance is different. Some QB's look horrible in their early careers and come back to go to the HOF.  He will play when he is ready.

You mean that guy who is a year removed from a super bowl? If you wanna look at advanced metrics look at Henne's career numbers vs. pretty much any other QB on that list.

Quote:We're being told Blake Bortles is being given time to develop this season, while Henne leads the team through the campaign. The right decision.


But assuming it turns out that way and Bortles isn't suddenly thrust into the action, what are the limits of learning from the sideline ?


He'll get the chance to learn the playbook, work with experienced players and have his mechanics tweaked by the coaches. But are there some things you can only learn from competitive matches ?


Or can 99% of it be leant without leaving the training field ?

 

Every situation is unique, and circumstance will always play a major role and factor. With that said. It sure looks like sitting for a few years didn't hurt Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, and even Eli Manning (to an extent), he didn't start his rookie season, he ended up taking over for a banged up and "the year that he would like to forget that even exists in his record book" Kurt Warner. And then of course, for every situation like those, you'll get your Ben Rothelisberger, Joe Flacco, Russel Wilson, Andrew Luck, or Matt Ryan.

 

It's very tricky. The one thing that you can argue with is that Rivers sat behind Brees and Rodgers sat behind Favre. I am sure that truly went a long way from a developmental perspective for both of them being on the sidelines and learning how to study film and prepare on a weekly basis. And naturally, with Eli, you can just throw out the fact that it was just in his blood man, he's a Manning, and he throws a football. He was just destined to be a winning QB at this level.

 

Personally, I dont think he's going to sit the entire season. I think he'll end up being in the starting line-up around mid-season or week 10 to be quite honest with you. And it'll be probably due to Henne's inconsistency as a QB, which is exactly how he's always played from MIA and even through his last two years here in Jacksonville. One minute you love the guy's decision making, and then the next, you want to kick your TV through the wall because he forced a pass that he shouldn't have forced.

 

Also, what if Bortles goes through all of the trouble of learning Jedd Fisch's system and play-book this year, ONLY to see him leave after this year to take-on a different coaching gig or job elsewhere? Then it's like learning how to ride a bike all over again for the kid. Believe it or not, that probably worries me more than anything. Alex Smith emediately comes to mind. People forget that Alex had a different offensive coordinator virtually every year when he was in SF. And the same can be said for Jason Campbell when he was in Washington earlier on during his career. Those two guys didn't really get a fair shake with a consistent coaching staff in place.

 

With Rodgers, he ALWAYS had McCarthy. With Manning (NYG), he ALWAYS had Gilbride. And then, with Roethislberger and Luck, those guys BOTH had Bruce Arians as their QB/OC coach and mentor. And we all know that the guy is absolutely pivotal when it comes to QB nature and development. If you look at what he just did with Carson Palmer in short time in ARZ last year. I think it's a legit statement about Arians being a QB Guru at this level.

 

So, I don't know. It's a catch 22 with Bortles man. All I know is that, if they feel that he's not ready to start. It's simple, DO NOT START HIM.

Quote:You can't learn everything from experience.  I had a coach once who told me "your football life will be very short if you try to learn on the field what can be learned in the film room."

 

Regards....................the Chiefjag

While that's a valid arguement,  the most instructive film for a player will be his game film. 

My answer to my own question... (And it was a genuine question. It wasn't rhetorical)


I think Bortles clearly has mechanical issues which need sorting out and he clearly needs to learn how our offense works (and I completely agree with the concern about changing coaches midway through that process). I also strongly believe that he can learn a lot from veterans at the Jaguars (and not just Henne) so the experience of waiting in the wings can only be a positive one.


Gus and the team will have to judge how long that process should take and he absolutely must not be thrown in as a starter before he is ready. That risks wasting a high draft pick and months of training.


But I also believe that once he is ready from a technical point if view, he needs to play competitive games to learn how to handle big game situations, the pressure of carrying an NFL team, even handling the media. All skills he will have learned to a limited extent in college and skills he can be taught in a classroom, but which he will only truly learn on the field.


I'm really pleased with the mature approach our coaching staff appear to be taking with BB. Whether he turns out to be Aaron Rodgers, we'll wait and see, but we are giving him the best possible chance to be a star if we stick with this plan.

Quote:Yes, I'm saying if he had better mechanics he would complete a higher percentage of passes and wouldn't be so wildly inconsistent.   It's really not a difficult concept to grasp, even though it seems to have to be hammered into some people's skulls with a sledge hammer.   You can't work on your mechanics when you're putting in 60-70 hours a week in game preperation for every upcoming opponent as a starter.    Your obligation ans priorities as a starter are to lead your teammates who are laying it out on the line to a win every week, not how high you're holding your elbow or how you're setting your feet properly on a 5 step play action drop.    

 

Newton's completion% is a whopping 1% higher than his rookie year three years ago and his QB passer rating has improved a stagger 3.5 points from where it was as a rookie.  .  (of course his YPA is drastically lower, which shows almost any improvement in completion% can be explained with throwing more dinks and dunks).  Luckily for him, that Panthers defense has grown by leaps and bounds in those 3 years and doesn't ask him to carry many games.    

 

Would you be happy if Bortles was still throwing 61 comp% after 3rd years as a starter with no discernible year to year progress?   I certainly wouldn't. 

 

What? Are you saying if Newton had got better he would be a better player? No freaking way!

 

He has still had several off seasons to work on this stuff but hasn't managed it, is that hard to grasp too? They aren't spending 60-70 hours preparing for games then, so whats the excuse there? Pressure of being a starter hurting Cammy Wammy's feewings? If he hasn't improved at least some, that's down to him and the fact that whatever coaching they have given him has not lead to improvements. What do you think they work on in the off-season?

 

I don't get this frankly stupid argument that once a guy is the starter they no longer work on fundamentals. Its so full of holes its like Swiss cheese.

 

If the starting QB is spending 60-70 hours preparing for a game he can't work on fundimentals. Ok, that kind of makes sense. But if the coaches and the starters are working on game plans for 60-70 hours and the backup is playing scout team, who is working on this stuff with Bortles anyway? Is Chad going to make the offensive game plan himself while the offensive coaches work with Blake?

 

Either there is time to work on fundamentals during the season or there isn't and who starts shouldn't impact it. There are only so many hours in the day, if there is time to help the backup (who will still have a full schedule learning the gameplan and playing scout team) work on his fundamentals, there is time to help the starter with his fundamentals too. If there isn't time for it, there wont be time for it whatever way you shake it.

Quote:Maybe we should have sat Gabbert for 3 years.

probably could have cut a full second off his time of falling to the fetal position in a collapsing pocket.

Quote:probably could have cut a full second off his time of falling to the fetal position in a collapsing pocket.

And another second where he was staring at the rush while not looking downfeild what so ever.

Quote:And another second where he was staring at the rush while not looking downfeild what so ever.

is this the second you're talking about?

I do question how much better someone can get by sitting on the bench.

 

Hopefully it takes half a year to get the mechanics improved enough for him to be deemed "ready enough" and he gets at least 4 games of regular season play to build upon for next year.

 

I don't want him starting 2015 and for the first time see live bullets flying in the NFL.

Quote:I do question how much better someone can get by sitting on the bench.

 

 

You're right.  Practice is great for the mechanics, but for decision making and game management, there's no substitute for the real thing.

Quote: 

It should take as long as it needs to take.  The future of the franchise depends on getting it right.     It will certainly need the better part of his rookie year.   McCarthy thought Rodgers was ready to start his 2nd year.  

 

 

<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;">Coach Mike McCarthy arrived in Rodgers’s second season, and he recognized the talent that spent Sundays holding clipboards. Since 1993, McCarthy has charted quarterbacks in five footwork drills that rate agility and movement. In his three backup seasons, Rodgers improved most in those areas, McCarthy said, to where he now ranks “at the top of all of them.”


<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;">In what McCarthy calls his Quarterback School, Rodgers concentrated on tuning his fine motor skills: hand-eye coordination, finger dexterity, mechanics. He also lowered where he held the ball for a smoother, more consistent motion.


<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;">By the end of Rodgers’s second year, McCarthy and Thompson saw him as a starter who happened not to start. With his quarterback coach, Tom Clements, Rodgers studied every play from the Packers’ previous season. He also took the spring practice repetitions when Favre stayed home in Mississippi.


<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;font-size:10px;">
<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Between Rodgers’s second and third seasons, Quarterback School consisted of 10 hours in the film room and 3 hours on the practice field a week, an offensive study conducted in “painstaking detail,” Clements said.



<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia, 'times new roman', times, serif;"> 


<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Eventually, Rodgers focused less on learning the Packers’ offense and more on clarifying why defenses ran certain coverages, schemes or fronts. Now, when Rodgers drops back to pass, he does not look for his receivers. He looks for defenders, where they are, where they might move, what that means or could mean. Then he throws for receivers headed toward open space.


<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);">The way he practiced behind Favre also earned Rodgers the respect of teammates. While Favre retired and unretired and eventually left for the Jets in 2008, Rodgers and Clements studied every pass Tom Brady threw in his record-setting 2007 season. Rodgers took note of how Brady “controlled the defense with his eyes” on nearly every completed pass.



 

</div>

This is exactly what I'm hoping Blake will get coached up on. You can't learn this at full speed as a rookie. Also please don't forget Blake did not have a dedicated qb coach in college to fine tune his raw skills coming out of HS. Blake may improve greatly by preseason, or it may take the better part of his rookie season. I've waited so long for a great QB I have no problem giving him a year in our system building the foundation of an elite QB for the next decade+. I looked up our QB coach and was not impressed with last year being his only NFL experience.

 

WIKI says:

Scelfo started coaching in college at Tulane University in 1996. He started out coaching tight ends before moving to quarterbacks and being an offensive coordinator. He coached four quarterbacks that played in the NFL. Those quarterbacks were Shaun King, Patrick Ramsey, <a class="" href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.P._Losman' title="J.P. Losman">J.P. Losman</a>, and Lester Ricard.

Scelfo later coached at Louisiana Tech University and the University of Arizona, where he coached Nick Foles.

He was let go after two seasons at Arizona and he took a break from coaching in 2012.

 

I sure wish we had a more qualified QB coach for Blake, but a dedicated coach is better than none at all.                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Quote:Elway #1 and Marino #27 started from Day 1

 

Marino didn't start until his 6th game as a rookie. 

Quote:Marino didn't start until his 6th game as a rookie. 

 

Yeah, the history gets more and more fantastical as time goes by.  For all his greatness, people forget that David Woodley and Don Strock both started games that season.  Woodley started the first 5 games before Marino replaced him because the offense was under-performing, and Strock started the last 2 because Marino had a knee sprain.