Quote:Aaron Rodgers was drafted in the first round. He sat for years behind Brett Favre. I think that one turned out rather nicely.
I thought we covered that 2 pages ago. Forgive me for borrowing someone else's post.
That is an
extremely rare occurance. Rodgers was the 24th pick, obviously the Packers saw something a lot of other missed. How many teams do you think would love a do-over? Imagine where this franchise would be if we had taken Rodgers instead of Matt Jones.
P.S. ESPN has Manziel ranked 21, coincidentally the slot Green Bay is picking in. I assume you think they should take him if available?
Quote:I'm sure they were also in the market to start looking for the qb of the future.
Brett Favre turned 36 years old early into Aaron Rodgers rookie season.
Aaron Rodgers just turned 31.
They have a couple more years
Quote:I thought we covered that 2 pages ago. Forgive me for borrowing someone else's post.
That is an extremely rare occurance. Rodgers was the 24th pick, obviously the Packers saw something a lot of other missed. How many teams do you think would love a do-over? Imagine where this franchise would be if we had taken Rodgers instead of Matt Jones.
P.S. ESPN has Manziel ranked 21, coincidentally the slot Green Bay is picking in. I assume you think they should take him if available?
Rodgers was at the top of the draft and fell 20 spots. He was far and away the best player available, just as he was for everyone who passed on him. Manziel, if he was rated at the top of the draft, would also be a good value selection if he too fell to 21. However, the likelihood of the 21st highest rated player being the highest rated player at 21 is unlikely, so selecting him wouldn't be BAP, anyways.
Quote:Why is it so hard for some people to understand drafting based on need is the only way to go? People are acting like we automatically sacrifice talent to fill a need. Baloney. Our history of bad picks in the Jack Del Rio era were simply the wrong choices to fill needs and did not mean we should have ignored our needs to pick better players. That was obvious in 2010, when Jason Pierre-Paul was one of the best available players, but Gene Smith thought Tyson Alualu was a better pick at #10. A smart general manager would have picked JPP instead to improve the defensive line.
Instead of BAP vs. need we should do it this way: BAP at need. In other words, pick the best available quarterback at #3 because we need a quarterback. It is that simple. Why do people make it seem so complicated?
Baloney? Your example of Alualu and JPP is exactly sacrificing talent to fill a need.... Alualu was probably the best DT available, but focusing on 1 position makes you miss a player such as Ryan Mathews, Earl Thomas, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, JPP, Jermaine Gresham, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc. When you focus on one position you tend to more often than not reach for a player at a certain spot, passing on better players.
BAP? Needs? who cares.... I hate when this topic comes up.
Just scout well. Neither BAP or Needs based drafting works if you cant scout.
Quote:Baloney? Your example of Alualu and JPP is exactly sacrificing talent to fill a need.... Alualu was probably the best DT available, but focusing on 1 position makes you miss a player such as Ryan Mathews, Earl Thomas, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, JPP, Jermaine Gresham, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc. When you focus on one position you tend to more often than not reach for a player at a certain spot, passing on better players.
I was saying Gene Smith could have filled the need by picking JPP instead and if he had done so, it would not be sacrificing talent to fill a need.
Quote:
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If your first round pick is going to sit on the bench he probably wasn't BAP, so your point is invalid. Suppose a QB is BAP when the Broncos are on the clock in round 1?
Do you think he' going to win the job over Manning? Likewise Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Brees, etc.?
The point is not invalid simply because you can't understand it!
You don't draft backup QBs in the first round, OK, here's the what all the talking head BAP idiots aren't bright enough to understand; if you automatically take BAP, you don't even get to choose what position you're picking, that choice is made for you by virtue of earlier teams selections.
but if you narrow your focus on O-Line, If your QB is spending a lot of time on the ground, O-line is a good place to focus on
you're going to miss out on better players just to fill a need. LOL, they're called needs for a reason! You don't need better players......you need players who make the team better. I'm sorry if you're not able to understand the difference.
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The last time Manning's team was in that situation they... drafted the QB and released Manning. A QB won't be BAP when the Broncos are on the clock in the first round because there won't be anyone QB's rated that high, because none of the QB's in the draft class are at that level to compete with Manning. You have no idea how well I understand it.
If you grade a QB as a backup, you are not giving him a first round grade; therefore, a backup QB isn't going to be BAP in the first round.
Talent makes the team better. The only need is better talent.
Quote:The last time Manning's team was in that situation they... drafted the QB and released Manning. A QB won't be BAP when the Broncos are on the clock in the first round because there won't be anyone QB's rated that high, because none of the QB's in the draft class are at that level to compete with Manning. You have no idea how well I understand it.
If you grade a QB as a backup, you are not giving him a first round grade; therefore, a backup QB isn't going to be BAP in the first round.
Talent makes the team better. The only need is better talent.
Agree.
You need the best players you can find.
It would make no sense for a team go after lesser talent simply because they are focusing on a position.
The draft is all about value, which is based on who are deemed the best available players.
Quote:Baloney? Your example of Alualu and JPP is exactly sacrificing talent to fill a need.... Alualu was probably the best DT available, but focusing on 1 position makes you miss a player such as Ryan Mathews, Earl Thomas, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncey, JPP, Jermaine Gresham, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc. When you focus on one position you tend to more often than not reach for a player at a certain spot, passing on better players.
Tyson Alualu was a terrible reach. You could hear the murmurs mixed with laughs around the draft gallery. The Sports Xchange said in their post draft analysis that the Jacksonville Jaguars' scouting department was probably the only one in the entire NFL that listed Alualu among the top ten players in the 2010 draft.
He's never lived up to first round expectations. He has been switched all over the place, but he still has not performed like a first rounder is expected to.
This fact is tolerated perhaps due to the fact that we all know Tyson had no choice about where he was taken in the draft and Gene Smith and his cronies operated the worst scouting department in the NFL.
Alualu was listed as a top forty player in 2010. Gene Smith took him at 10, or thirty picks too high. He was clearly not the best player available regardless of position.
So the Team Gene Regime gave up a twenty in pick value and got ten or eleven in pick value back in player-asset. That's a draft bust right out of the box.
Quote:<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="PAjagsfan" data-cid="119013" data-time="1390673969">
If your first round pick is going to sit on the bench he probably wasn't BAP, so your point is invalid. Suppose a QB is BAP when the Broncos are on the clock in round 1?
Do you think he' going to win the job over Manning? Likewise Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Brees, etc.?
The point is not invalid simply because you can't understand it!
You don't draft backup QBs in the first round, OK, here's the what all the talking head BAP idiots aren't bright enough to understand; if you automatically take BAP, you don't even get to choose what position you're picking, that choice is made for you by virtue of earlier teams selections.
but if you narrow your focus on O-Line, If your QB is spending a lot of time on the ground, O-line is a good place to focus on
you're going to miss out on better players just to fill a need. LOL, they're called needs for a reason! You don't need better players......you need players who make the team better. I'm sorry if you're not able to understand the difference.
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Firstly, you might wanna amend your examples considering Brady, Rodgers, and Wilson were selected when other QBs were the projected starter. They are pretty much on the Mount Rushmore of BAP drafting, and who strictly follows any principle anyway? People act like BAP guys have NO consideration for need, and need-pickers have NO consideration for value. Rating a GM comes down to "how likely are they to reach for a position of need and who would they select instead?"
Quote:Tyson Alualu was a terrible reach. You could hear the murmurs mixed with laughs around the draft gallery. The Sports Xchange said in their post draft analysis that the Jacksonville Jaguars' scouting department was probably the only one in the entire NFL that listed Alualu among the top ten players in the 2010 draft.
Alualu was listed as a top forty player in 2010. Gene Smith took him at 10, or thirty picks too high. He was clearly not the best player available regardless of position.
So the Team Gene Regime gave up a twenty in pick value and got ten or eleven in pick value back in player-asset. That's a draft bust right out of the box.
Did you have access to Gene's board? Or are you merely speculating and stating it as fact? Thats the problem with BAP. Not everyone's drafting off the same board. Forget best available at the 10th pick, for all you know Alualu was the #1 overall top ranked player in the entire draft on Gene's board. We dont have a clue where Alualu was rated on his board.
Forget needs, forget BAP, just scout well and use common sense when drafting. The rest will follow.
Quote:Firstly, you might wanna amend your examples considering Brady, Rodgers, and Wilson were selected when other QBs were the projected starter. They are pretty much on the Mount Rushmore of BAP drafting, and who strictly follows any principle anyway? People act like BAP guys have NO consideration for need, and need-pickers have NO consideration for value. Rating a GM comes down to "how likely are they to reach for a position of need and who would they select instead?"
Having a stable organization is the key to developing a new quarterback. Whatever folks want to think about Gabbert, franchise stability is nothing to take for granted and it's short-sightedness to ignore a lack of stability factors into what kind of a quarterback emerges from the swill.
Three new head coaches and three different offensive coordinators in three years.
With the front office more stable than it has been in the past ten years, the football operations, with the exclusion of scouting (apparently), by all means is capable of providing the solid footing for future quarterback development.
For the first time in his career, Gabbert knows who his head coach is next season.
This is precisely why you do NOT want to draft a quarterback
all over again right now.
When you ain't got a great quarterback and none of elite quality are on the near horizon, it's not the end of the world. You go with what you've got, but you keep busy by doing the next thing in the progression. The next thing is NOT to draft another franchise quarterback.
The next thing to do is to create a highly talented offensive line. Drafting Luke Joeckel did NOT complete the progression, it started it.
Quote:Did you have access to Gene's board? Or are you merely speculating and stating it as fact? Thats the problem with BAP. Not everyone's drafting off the same board. Forget best available at the 10th pick, for all you know Alualu was the #1 overall top ranked player in the entire draft on Gene's board. We dont have a clue where Alualu was rated on his board.
Forget needs, forget BAP, just scout well and use common sense when drafting. The rest will follow.
You think best player available had something to do with Alualu being picked? WUT?
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0900...ick-Alualu
Umm, Alualu was one of four straight defensive linemen taken by Gene Smith and his cronies in 2010.
Smith was a horrible GM and his lousy scouts know nothing about talent. Smith was such an idiot he would deliberately sever veteran players just to create his draft "need".
Quote:You think best player available had something to do with Alualu being picked? WUT?
Doesnt matter what I think. Doesnt matter what you think. Doesnt matter what the consensus thinks. All that mattered was what Gene Smith thought. And for all we know he thought Alualu was the best player in the entire draft. Just because the "consensus" thought he was a borderline first rounder doesnt mean Gene Smith also thought so. If our GM was gonna just go by the consensus, why have a scouting department? Hell why even have a GM? Just find a computer programmer to develop a webcrawler to find all top draft boards on the internet and consolidate them. We'll have the ultimate consensus.
Lets use Logan Thomas as an example. Sounds like some scouts have him as a 2nd/3rd round prospect. Others dont have him as draftable. Is it a reach if a team that has him as a 3rd round prospect drafts him in the 3rd round? Or are they guilty of not following the consensus and thus reached on that draft pick? There is no such thing as a consensus draft board. Scouts dont sit around the table and come up with an agreed upon draft board that they all select from. What you think is a reach, another guy could think a steal.
Scouting well is all that matters. Drafting philosophy is just fluff.
Quote:You think best player available had something to do with Alualu being picked? WUT?
Umm, Alualu was one of four straight defensive linemen taken by Gene Smith and his cronies in 2010.
Smith was a horrible GM and his lousy scouts know nothing about talent. Smith was such an idiot he would deliberately sever veteran players just to create his draft "need".
You obviously did not read my post that clearly explained if Gene Smith was smart he would have filled the same need with a better player, so the fact he chose Alualu of all linemen had absolutely nothing to do with the BAP vs. need argument. If you want to talk about a need pick sacrificing talent, talk about what the NFL's smartest GM is doing to fill needs - you know, one who actually knows a lot about evaluating players.
Quote:You obviously did not read my post that clearly explained if Gene Smith was smart he would have filled the same need with a better player, so the fact he chose Alualu of all linemen had absolutely nothing to do with the BAP vs. need argument. If you want to talk about a need pick sacrificing talent, talk about what the NFL's smartest GM is doing to fill needs - you know, one who actually knows a lot about evaluating players.
WUT?
You're quoting a reply to somebody else, no?
If the Team Gene Regime was so confident in Alualu, why'd they then draft defensive linemen with their next three-consecutive picks?
Quote:WUT?
You're quoting a reply to somebody else, no?
If the Team Gene Regime was so confident in Alualu, why'd they then draft defensive linemen with their next three-consecutive picks?
Because our defensive line was so bad all four positions needed to be upgraded. Unfortunately he did not know it is better to pick one in each draft to put the most talent on that line.
Quote:Combined with need...
You need the best players you can find... need is inherent in selecting the best talent.
Quote:Because our defensive line was so bad all four positions needed to be upgraded. Unfortunately he did not know it is better to pick one in each draft to put the most talent on that line.
Wrong. The Team Gene Regime was oblivious to the fact that they had absolutely no instinctive traits which are a primary necessity for a pro scout. They were incapable of seeing the big picture. That simply means they suffered from myopia.
Definition
Myopia is the medical term for nearsightedness. People with myopia see objects more clearly when they are close to the eye, while distant objects appear blurred or fuzzy. Reading and close-up work may be clear, but distance vision is blurry.
Here's the snap judgment of the Alualu pick:
Pick Analysis: The Jaguars take the hard-working Alualu to the surprise of many observers in attendance. Although the former Cal star was expected to come off the board in the first round, no one anticipated him going before the likes of Derrick Morgan, Jason Pierre-Paul and Sergio Kindle. With the recent trade of Quentin Groves opening up a spot at defensive end, Alualu gives the Jaguars a high-motor rusher to pair with Aaron Kampman on pass downs.
The fact is Alualu was never projected to be a three-down starting defensive lineman (think Marcus Stroud, John Henderson, etc). AND pro scouts did acknowledge size-limited Alualu had zero pass rushing skills making him even less than HALF of a draft pick. His play requires limited downs and requires additional personnel to fill the position against the run.
The Team Gene Regime gave up a pick asset of twenty and got a seven to ten back in return.
They were bombastic about defensive line because they were embarrassed by prior draft busts Derrick Harvey and Quentin Groves. They were also ridiculous (think Jeff Lageman) enough to sign damaged goods DE Aaron Kampman, who they knew was undergoing ACL reconstruction surgery and represented unacceptable risk.