Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
AJ Bouye was a Free Agent not a pick. And with all questions like this, it boils down to that age old answer: The QB is special, there's no equivalent position in any other sport that I know of good ones are incredibly rare. Just because you think the guy you have is not the answer doesn't mean you should ditch him first chance you get in the hopes of making it work with someone else.
(06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
I get the point and I was a vocal proponent of taking Davis Webb in the third round of the '17 draft to bolster the position.
Some minor nit-picks in the draft/FA history you mentioned:
The Davon House (GB corner) signing wasn't an exorbitant contract even though he didn't play up to it - but he did play pretty well in his first year then fell off.
About the backs: You need more than one good RB in this league and the team had a shift in the front office this year that likely influenced the early pick there.
Cyprien was a swing and a miss and Sample can't stay on the field - so they had to keep drafting/signing there too.
Still -- your point is a good one IMO. I think they've neglected addressing the QB position some and they either see big untapped potential in Bortles or just didn't like the QB class of 2017. (or both) He still has a shot at proving his doubters wrong.
I like the idea of taking flyers on mid round QBs if your current guy is serviceable but less than ideal. If you hit - you get to pick one to deal away for more draft picks and you may find your franchise guy.
(06-21-2017, 04:55 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
I get the point and I was a vocal proponent of taking Davis Webb in the third round of the '17 draft to bolster the position.
Some minor nit-picks in the draft/FA history you mentioned:
The Davon House (GB corner) signing wasn't an exorbitant contract even though he didn't play up to it - but he did play pretty well in his first year then fell off.
About the backs: You need more than one good RB in this league and the team had a shift in the front office this year that likely influenced the early pick there.
Cyprien was a swing and a miss and Sample can't stay on the field - so they had to keep drafting/signing there too.
Still -- your point is a good one IMO. I think they've neglected addressing the QB position some and they either see big untapped potential in Bortles or just didn't like the QB class of 2017. (or both) He still has a shot at proving his doubters wrong.
I like the idea of taking flyers on mid round QBs if your current guy is serviceable but less than ideal. If you hit - you get to pick one to deal away for more draft picks and you may find your franchise guy.
That was sort of my point. This team has to be among the bottom dwellers when it comes to drafting QBs. They rarely if ever do, ala Garrard. Maybe Coughlin will make things change in that aspect, but it would be nice to see a guy earn the job.
(06-21-2017, 05:04 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017, 04:55 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I get the point and I was a vocal proponent of taking Davis Webb in the third round of the '17 draft to bolster the position.
Some minor nit-picks in the draft/FA history you mentioned:
The Davon House (GB corner) signing wasn't an exorbitant contract even though he didn't play up to it - but he did play pretty well in his first year then fell off.
About the backs: You need more than one good RB in this league and the team had a shift in the front office this year that likely influenced the early pick there.
Cyprien was a swing and a miss and Sample can't stay on the field - so they had to keep drafting/signing there too.
Still -- your point is a good one IMO. I think they've neglected addressing the QB position some and they either see big untapped potential in Bortles or just didn't like the QB class of 2017. (or both) He still has a shot at proving his doubters wrong.
I like the idea of taking flyers on mid round QBs if your current guy is serviceable but less than ideal. If you hit - you get to pick one to deal away for more draft picks and you may find your franchise guy.
That was sort of my point. This team has to be among the bottom dwellers when it comes to drafting QBs. They rarely if ever do, ala Garrard. Maybe Coughlin will make things change in that aspect, but it would be nice to see a guy earn the job.
Coughlin drafted 3 QBs during his time, 4 if you count Beerline plus he traded for Brunell.
The other guys drafted Lefty, Gabbs, Bortles and Allen.
Coughlin definitely doesnt hesitate to pull the trigger.
(06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
Maybe they have not seen the value to match what they have with what is out there when QB's are available. The same cannot be said for the other positions you mentioned.
Caldwell knows he sinks with Bortles. Thats why.
(06-21-2017, 10:44 PM)haveaseat Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell knows he sinks with Bortles. Thats why.
That doesn't explain why they didn't pursue any QBs in 2017. Coughlin could have overridden Caldwell's desire not to draft or sign a QB if he chose to do so.
Caldwell also drafted Brandon Allen, BTW.
Maybe they still see the talent in Bortles to be successful?
(06-21-2017, 11:47 PM)mvannostran Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe they still see the talent in Bortles to be successful?
I agree but you can't tell that to folks who wants to see blake gone because they continue to whine and complain about it as if he's hasn't done a thing in this league. Tom and Dave want blake to be the qb so if anyone don't like the way they came to that conclusion or the decision itself then my advice to them is to get over it and allow the process to play out. I'm truly not trying to be insensitive with my post because i truly understand folks frustration with this team but we have less patients with blake than we had blaine gabbert which is mind blowing to me. I guess the fan base as a whole is suffering from losing seasons syndrome and wants to exterminate anyone that's associate with it.
As Haveaseat said, Caldwell knows he sinks or swims with Bortles. If Bortles doesn't lead this team to a winning season this year, it may well be the end of the Caldwell/Bortles era at J'ville.
Last year Blake was in a terrible position, Oline could not open hole for running backs, team kept him from QB camp that has helped him greatly this year, way to much pressure on him to carry team and he regressed for those reasons. He has spent this off season working every minute to correct his mechanics and get in better shape. In OTA's his passes looked much improved and instead of taking time off between camps he is in Taxes putting in more work on his game. What else can you possibly ask him to do? I believe he will secure the QB position this year. Tom and Doug would not support him as the starter if they did not see talent and potential in Blake.
All the arm chair general managers need to get off his back and give the kid a chance.
(06-22-2017, 09:13 AM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ]Last year Blake was in a terrible position, Oline could not open hole for running backs, team kept him from QB camp that has helped him greatly this year, way to much pressure on him to carry team and he regressed for those reasons. He has spent this off season working every minute to correct his mechanics and get in better shape. In OTA's his passes looked much improved and instead of taking time off between camps he is in Taxes putting in more work on his game. What else can you possibly ask him to do? I believe he will secure the QB position this year. Tom and Doug would not support him as the starter if they did not see talent and potential in Blake.
All the arm chair general managers need to get off his back and give the kid a chance.
The team can't actually keep him from doing what he wants to do in the offseason. Just to be clear - what was reported was that Olson may have suggested he'd be better off throwing with his own receivers than spending several weeks in CA. That's all we really know on that. I'm glad Olson is gone and that Blake went back to his gurus, for the record. Very glad.
RE: the red bit. I agree that they clearly believe in him enough to give him one more chance and I think it's the right move. I would have added a mid-round pick to the equation for insurance, but I'm glad he's getting one more shot despite my being objectively critical of his mistakes and shortcomings.
(06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
IMO... rookie QBs and veteran FAs were not a good choice this offseason. They believe Bortles can develop. If he can't, the possible FA vets and rookies next season at least appear to be better options.
Also... there's some who think you build a team and place the QB last.
Maybe Bortles is the Gus Bradley of QBs, where he is just holding a place until the team as a whole is ready to compete.
Then insert a star rookie QB or some veteran trade/signing (Cousins, McCarron, etc).
We shall see if their plan works.
(06-22-2017, 09:13 AM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ]Last year Blake was in a terrible position, Oline could not open hole for running backs, team kept him from QB camp that has helped him greatly this year, way to much pressure on him to carry team and he regressed for those reasons. He has spent this off season working every minute to correct his mechanics and get in better shape. In OTA's his passes looked much improved and instead of taking time off between camps he is in Taxes putting in more work on his game. What else can you possibly ask him to do? I believe he will secure the QB position this year. Tom and Doug would not support him as the starter if they did not see talent and potential in Blake.
All the arm chair general managers need to get off his back and give the kid a chance.
I can not saying this better myself and i truly appreciate your post on this topic because your insight on the situation is fair.
(06-21-2017, 10:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017, 10:44 PM)haveaseat Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell knows he sinks with Bortles. Thats why.
That doesn't explain why they didn't pursue any QBs in 2017. Coughlin could have overridden Caldwell's desire not to draft or sign a QB if he chose to do so.
Caldwell also drafted Brandon Allen, BTW.
It's quite plausible to think that Coughlin would have pulled the trigger on a QB if he felt there was an upgrade to be had over what's currently on the roster. Tom isn't going to be shy about pursuing a QB, and Caldwell's connection to Bortles became irrelevant the moment Tom was hired to run football operations. I honestly think that had Coughlin seen a guy in the draft that represented actual competition for the starting position, he would have drafted that guy. This was not a good draft for QB talent, so it's really not a shock that he didn't. Next year is supposed to be much better for the position, and regardless of what Bortles does this year, I think you're going to see the team drafting another QB.
As far as competition this year goes, it's Branden Allen and Bortles who will be competing for the starting gig. Henne isn't in that mix, and I would suspect that if Allen shows enough improvement, he could wind up being Blake's backup this year. I don't see him as a long-term solution as a starter, but as a backup? Why not?
I think all of this is going to be moot when things work themselves out this year. I think we're going to see a much improved Bortles on the field.
(06-22-2017, 10:30 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017, 10:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]That doesn't explain why they didn't pursue any QBs in 2017. Coughlin could have overridden Caldwell's desire not to draft or sign a QB if he chose to do so.
Caldwell also drafted Brandon Allen, BTW.
...
As far as competition this year goes, it's Branden Allen and Bortles who will be competing for the starting gig. Henne isn't in that mix, and I would suspect that if Allen shows enough improvement, he could wind up being Blake's backup this year. I don't see him as a long-term solution as a starter, but as a backup? Why not?
I do hope that Allen shows enough to allow them to cut Henne in August. Simply from the perspective of freeing up a roster spot. They are in a bit of a pinch when it comes to keeping 4 vs 5 RB/FB, 5 vs 6 WRs , or 8 vs 9 o-linemen. Henne's spot could keep a talented back-up on the roster elsewhere.
(06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
I think one reason is because guys at the positions you cite can all get on the field. We use multiple safeties, multiple CBs, etc. QB is completely different. During the season, the starting QB gets 100% of the reps in practice. This is true for the entire league. Backup QBs do not get ANY reps during the season, because it is so important to completely prepare the starting QB. So if you draft another QB, he's either going to sit all year without any reps beyond training camp, or you're going to bench your starter and he won't get any reps for the entire season. So if you bench your starting QB, he's DONE. It's final. That's what makes changing QBs such a huge huge thing. And that's what makes drafting a new QB a waste unless you are thinking about starting the guy.
That's why the QB position is treated so differently from other positions. You can draft other positions, and they will contribute one way or another. If you draft a QB, and you don't play him, he contributes nothing at all.
The other thing is, in terms of Bortles in particular, finding a quality QB is really hard. Look at Cleveland. They have churned through dozens of QBs in the last 8 or 10 years without ever finding a "franchise" level QB. It's really hard to find one. So if there is any chance at all that your guy could become a quality starter, you have to let it play out. Say the odds of Bortles becoming a franchise QB at this point is 10%. What are the odds the next guy is a franchise QB? 5%? Go with the 10% chance. Play it out.
(06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
The difference is there weren't any viable alternatives at QB. What QB would you have wanted the Jags to draft (or trade for) instead of the player the Jags drafted, or sign as a free agent?
(06-22-2017, 10:52 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2017, 04:37 PM)Dakota Wrote: [ -> ]Let's look at a couple of positions, and a handful of seasons. Positions: QB, RB, CB, and DL. Now, look back at the past few seasons. Let's start with RB. 2 years ago, the Jags used a 2nd round pick on a RB. The following year, they spent quite a bit on another RB. Now, this year, they use pick #4 on yet another RB. Why? Because they knew they didn't have their guy. CB, first the FA from GB (forgot the name). Next, a high pick on Ramsey, followed by a high pick on Boyie(sp). Same with safety with Sample, Cyp, Church, and Gipson. The D-line has had multiple draft picks and high priced free agents. Now, why did they do all of this? Common sense dictates that they want the best guys on the field.
Now, looking at QB. What do they see in Bortles that keeps them from doing the same thing as all of these other positoins? I don't know. It's almost like they want to let the cream rise to the top except for the most important position on the team.
What are they seeing that we don't that keeps them from following their MO of letting the best guy win? I wish I knew.
I think one reason is because guys at the positions you cite can all get on the field. We use multiple safeties, multiple CBs, etc. QB is completely different. During the season, the starting QB gets 100% of the reps in practice. This is true for the entire league. Backup QBs do not get ANY reps during the season, because it is so important to completely prepare the starting QB. So if you draft another QB, he's either going to sit all year without any reps beyond training camp, or you're going to bench your starter and he won't get any reps for the entire season. So if you bench your starting QB, he's DONE. It's final. That's what makes changing QBs such a huge huge thing. And that's what makes drafting a new QB a waste unless you are thinking about starting the guy.
That's why the QB position is treated so differently from other positions. You can draft other positions, and they will contribute one way or another. If you draft a QB, and you don't play him, he contributes nothing at all.
The other thing is, in terms of Bortles in particular, finding a quality QB is really hard. Look at Cleveland. They have churned through dozens of QBs in the last 8 or 10 years without ever finding a "franchise" level QB. It's really hard to find one. So if there is any chance at all that your guy could become a quality starter, you have to let it play out. Say the odds of Bortles becoming a franchise QB at this point is 10%. What are the odds the next guy is a franchise QB? 5%? Go with the 10% chance. Play it out.
You nailed it with your last paragraph. Intelligent people don't do the equivalent of throwing a tantrum and start drafting bad players or signing bad players just because they think the current QB isn't good enough.
Of course I think Bortles is actually much better than he's given credit for here and around a league that wants the Jaguars to fail, but we'll see what we get in 2017. My guess is there will be a lot of people 8 games into the season trying to reason away credit from Bortles when the team has a winning record and he's playing well. A lot of "it's all Fournette!" and "it's all the defense!" But really if they're winning I think most of us will be happy enough anyway.