(07-19-2017, 08:28 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 07:48 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]You wrote and I quote: "Definitely not the smartest thing he could do, but we don't know what was said to him, which made him get out of the car in the first place. For all we know it was some white guy dropping saying racist things. It could also be as simple as the guy yelling for him to slow down, but I highly doubt that."
You all but infer that it must have been a racist comment even after stating you don't know all the facts.
What we do know however is that Dante has a history of poor choices both on and off the field. That is all on him, and the pattern is repeating itself.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see him get his ducks in a row and turn it around but his collective history is not very promising.
No, I clearly said that I highly doubt it was something as simple as the guy telling him to slow down.
It also probably wasn't as heavy as racism either, but it was obviously enough to make Fowler get out of his car.
It was probably something in between those two lines. You never know though.
Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
(07-19-2017, 08:28 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 07:48 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]You wrote and I quote: "Definitely not the smartest thing he could do, but we don't know what was said to him, which made him get out of the car in the first place. For all we know it was some white guy dropping saying racist things. It could also be as simple as the guy yelling for him to slow down, but I highly doubt that."
You all but infer that it must have been a racist comment even after stating you don't know all the facts.
What we do know however is that Dante has a history of poor choices both on and off the field. That is all on him, and the pattern is repeating itself.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see him get his ducks in a row and turn it around but his collective history is not very promising.
No, I clearly said that I highly doubt it was something as simple as the guy telling him to slow down.
It also probably wasn't as heavy as racism either, but it was obviously enough to make Fowler get out of his car.
It was probably something in between those two lines. You never know though.
Fowler has a thug mentality. It probably wouldn't take much for him to exit his car and confront somebody who "dissed" him. The guy obviously has a bad temper based on his lack of discipline on the field, personal fouls, fights in training camp, etc. Oh and also that time he assaulted a police officer and resisted arrest.
So you can think all you want that Fowler was fighting for social justice like MLK against an evil racist but his own track record of thug behavior suggests otherwise.
(07-19-2017, 07:26 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 07:19 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]It's a misdemeanor charge of simple battery and mischief. You guys need to stop acting like he beat some guy down into a lifeless bloody pulp.
Definitely not the smartest thing he could do, but we don't know what was said to him, which made him get out of the car in the first place. For all we know it was some white guy dropping saying racist things. It could also be as simple as the guy yelling for him to slow down, but I highly doubt that.
His driving record is far more concerning than this incident...
He needs to slow it down before something very serious happens to him, or somebody else.
I understand he's young and we all drive fast at times. This pattern of tickets is happening way too often though. It's not just a ticket or two, here or there. It's multiple violations within days and weeks of each other.
Come on Eric. You cant have it both ways. You admit you have no idea what the guy said to make Fowler get out of his car. Dante has a horrible driving record as you pointed out but it must have been a racist comment. SMH!
That is NOT what he said.
Acknowledging the possibility of a racist catalyst to this incident (which is what he did) is NOT the same as definitively stating it was a racist incident (which is what you SAY he did).
He indicated there may have been any number of things that led to this incident. He just listed two possibilities.
(07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:28 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]No, I clearly said that I highly doubt it was something as simple as the guy telling him to slow down.
It also probably wasn't as heavy as racism either, but it was obviously enough to make Fowler get out of his car.
It was probably something in between those two lines. You never know though.
Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
How can you admit that you don't know exactly what caused the incident, but demonstrably state it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction?
There are any number of subjective factors that could lead up to the decision to arrest or not arrest in a given situation.
(07-19-2017, 08:36 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 07:26 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Come on Eric. You cant have it both ways. You admit you have no idea what the guy said to make Fowler get out of his car. Dante has a horrible driving record as you pointed out but it must have been a racist comment. SMH!
That is NOT what he said.
Acknowledging the possibility of a racist catalyst to this incident (which is what he did) is NOT the same as definitively stating it was a racist incident (which is what you SAY he did).
He indicated there may have been any number of things that led to this incident. He just listed two possibilities.
(07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
How can you admit that you don't know exactly what caused the incident, but demonstrably state it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction?
There are any number of subjective factors that could lead up to the decision to arrest or not arrest in a given situation.
Because of this drop in: "but I highly doubt that"
Up until those 5 words I was in agreement.
(07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:28 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]No, I clearly said that I highly doubt it was something as simple as the guy telling him to slow down.
It also probably wasn't as heavy as racism either, but it was obviously enough to make Fowler get out of his car.
It was probably something in between those two lines. You never know though.
Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
(07-19-2017, 08:52 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:36 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] That is NOT what he said.
Acknowledging the possibility of a racist catalyst to this incident (which is what he did) is NOT the same as definitively stating it was a racist incident (which is what you SAY he did).
He indicated there may have been any number of things that led to this incident. He just listed two possibilities.
How can you admit that you don't know exactly what caused the incident, but demonstrably state it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction?
There are any number of subjective factors that could lead up to the decision to arrest or not arrest in a given situation.
Because of this drop in: "but I highly doubt that"
Up until those 5 words I was in agreement.
Because I highly doubt he simply told him to just slow down, which is what those 5 words followed.. I don't understand how that is hard to comprehend.
This just confirms Ngakoue is the guy going into the season.
(07-19-2017, 08:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
Again, what may or may not have been said is completely irrelevant. Even if there were racist utterances, it doesn't justify Fowler becoming physical. So you dwelling on this hypothetical is completely pointless.
I don't want to get bogged down into discussions of race and police subjectivity.
The Fowler related news of the last 24 hours, if true, paints a disturbing picture of Fowler.
The instances of reckless driving and battery of a LEO are instances that could have cost him or others their lives.
Even though Fowler might have been provoked (not saying he was or that his actions were justified), he has to show better judgment.
He's young and wealthy, but that's no more justification for him than it is for Manziel. His actions may have long term ramifications for him the Jaguars, and any random individual he may encounter.
(07-19-2017, 08:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
(07-19-2017, 08:52 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Because of this drop in: "but I highly doubt that"
Up until those 5 words I was in agreement.
Because I highly doubt he simply told him to just slow down, which is what those 5 words followed.. I don't understand how that is hard to comprehend.
Then I stand corrected, I mistook what you were inferring. Of that I can agree. If that is what this incident was about the guy probably said Slow down you !*&()&^%!
(07-19-2017, 08:36 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-19-2017, 08:32 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever it was, it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction, which is why he was arrested and the victim wasn't. You seemingly search for absolution for Fowler, but there is none.
How can you admit that you don't know exactly what caused the incident, but demonstrably state it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction?
There are any number of subjective factors that could lead up to the decision to arrest or not arrest in a given situation.
So, the police got it wrong, then? I suppose that's possible, but I was really referring to Eric's hypothetical, which was between a racist comment and just slow down, if I understood him correctly. And yes, anything up to and in between those two would not warrant Fowler's reaction.
(07-19-2017, 09:13 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
Because I highly doubt he simply told him to just slow down, which is what those 5 words followed.. I don't understand how that is hard to comprehend.
Then I stand corrected, I mistook what you were inferring. Of that I can agree. If that is what this incident was about the guy probably said Slow down you !*&()&^%!
If I had to guess, it probably went something like that.
I doubt it was a meek guy like Mister Rogers asking him, in conversational tones, to pretty please be careful.
(07-19-2017, 09:05 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
Again, what may or may not have been said is completely irrelevant. Even if there were racist utterances, it doesn't justify Fowler becoming physical. So you dwelling on this hypothetical is completely pointless.
I'm not dwelling on anything. I simply made a comment and you guys proceeded to jump up and down and say how there's no way that, that could have happened.
One thing that is for sure though. Regardless of all this, Fowler is beginning to pile up a long line of stupidness behind him.
The constant reckless driving is concerning. If he keeps that up, it's only a matter of time before he hurts himself, or somebody else.
(07-19-2017, 09:13 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]That's because words cannot cause an arrest. Fowler was arrested because he had some sort of physical contact with the other guy.
I'm not searching for any type of absolution for Fowler. He did what he did and got arrested for it because it was wrong. I'm merely going beyond all of you just assuming things and trying to make them the end all, be all.
We don't know what actually was said, or took place. You guys are so quick to say that racism was absolutely not involved, when all I did was say it could have been involved. Not that it was involved, or the reason why. The world we live in right now is full of racism at every corner. It's absolutely not out of place, or out of the norm to suggest that racism could have been involved.
Because I highly doubt he simply told him to just slow down, which is what those 5 words followed.. I don't understand how that is hard to comprehend.
Then I stand corrected, I mistook what you were inferring. Of that I can agree. If that is what this incident was about the guy probably said Slow down you !*&()&^%!
(07-19-2017, 09:15 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 08:36 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
How can you admit that you don't know exactly what caused the incident, but demonstrably state it didn't warrant Fowler's reaction?
There are any number of subjective factors that could lead up to the decision to arrest or not arrest in a given situation.
So, the police got it wrong, then? I suppose that's possible, but I was really referring to Eric's hypothetical, which was between a racist comment and just slow down, if I understood him correctly. And yes, anything up to and in between those two would not warrant Fowler's reaction.
I meant it as one extreme, to another. The least extreme being a calm slow down, which is why I said I highly doubt that because I just don't see that getting a reaction like Fowler gave. The most extreme being some sort of racism, but that most likely would have caused a much more violent out break from Fowler.
There's any number of things in between those and I figured I didn't have to spell them all out for people to understand. Guess I was wrong and should have broke down a few more possibilities in between to make it more clear.
(07-19-2017, 09:23 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 09:05 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Again, what may or may not have been said is completely irrelevant. Even if there were racist utterances, it doesn't justify Fowler becoming physical. So you dwelling on this hypothetical is completely pointless.
I'm not dwelling on anything. I simply made a comment and you guys proceeded to jump up and down and say how there's no way that, that could have happened.
One thing that is for sure though. Regardless of all this, Fowler is beginning to pile up a long line of stupidness behind him.
The constant reckless driving is concerning. If he keeps that up, it's only a matter of time before he hurts himself, or somebody else.
(07-19-2017, 09:13 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Then I stand corrected, I mistook what you were inferring. Of that I can agree. If that is what this incident was about the guy probably said Slow down you !*&()&^%!
(07-19-2017, 09:15 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]So, the police got it wrong, then? I suppose that's possible, but I was really referring to Eric's hypothetical, which was between a racist comment and just slow down, if I understood him correctly. And yes, anything up to and in between those two would not warrant Fowler's reaction.
I meant it as one extreme, to another. The least extreme being a calm slow down, which is why I said I highly doubt that because I just don't see that getting a reaction like Fowler gave. The most extreme being some sort of racism, but that most likely would have caused a much more violent out break from Fowler.
There's any number of things in between those and I figured I didn't have to spell them all out for people to understand. Guess I was wrong and should have broke down a few more possibilities in between to make it more clear.
Nah it wouldnt have mattered how many scenarios you out forth. The mention of racism and having to acknowledge that it exists makes people uncomfortable.
(07-19-2017, 09:23 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 09:15 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]So, the police got it wrong, then? I suppose that's possible, but I was really referring to Eric's hypothetical, which was between a racist comment and just slow down, if I understood him correctly. And yes, anything up to and in between those two would not warrant Fowler's reaction.
I meant it as one extreme, to another. The least extreme being a calm slow down, which is why I said I highly doubt that because I just don't see that getting a reaction like Fowler gave. The most extreme being some sort of racism, but that most likely would have caused a much more violent out break from Fowler.
There's any number of things in between those and I figured I didn't have to spell them all out for people to understand. Guess I was wrong and should have broke down a few more possibilities in between to make it more clear.
What you haven't made clear is why you brought any of this up. If not for justification of Fowler's actions, as you state, then why?
(07-19-2017, 09:59 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 09:23 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]I meant it as one extreme, to another. The least extreme being a calm slow down, which is why I said I highly doubt that because I just don't see that getting a reaction like Fowler gave. The most extreme being some sort of racism, but that most likely would have caused a much more violent out break from Fowler.
There's any number of things in between those and I figured I didn't have to spell them all out for people to understand. Guess I was wrong and should have broke down a few more possibilities in between to make it more clear.
What you haven't made clear is why you brought any of this up. If not for justification of Fowler's actions, as you state, then why?
Somebody can't bring up possible reasons for why this might have occurred/escalated?
I didnt like the Smoot pick but its starting to look better
(07-19-2017, 10:12 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 09:59 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]What you haven't made clear is why you brought any of this up. If not for justification of Fowler's actions, as you state, then why?
Somebody can't bring up possible reasons for why this might have occurred/escalated?
Sure somebody can. But that person runs the risk of sounding like they are justifying Fowler's actions. Your first post I responded to read just like that. You acknowledged it wasn't the smartest thing he did, but when on to point out hypotheticals that would seemingly put Fowler in a better light. If you were responding directly to someone asking how this happened, it would have read differently.
(07-19-2017, 10:34 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 10:12 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Somebody can't bring up possible reasons for why this might have occurred/escalated?
Sure somebody can. But that person runs the risk of sounding like they are justifying Fowler's actions. Your first post I responded to read just like that. You acknowledged it wasn't the smartest thing he did, but when on to point out hypotheticals that would seemingly put Fowler in a better light. If you were responding directly to someone asking how this happened, it would have read differently.
If we knew exactly what was said, then I'd tell you straight up if I was going to justify Fowler's actions.
While you aren't suppose to put hands on somebody because of words, there's absolutely some words that can be said, which can be justified by chin checking somebody.
There isn't many words and normally I'd say to just walk away, but there's few instances where walking away just isn't going to happen. As an example for me, my father passed away last year unexpectedly and if somebody were to start spouting off negativity about my father to my face. You can bet I'm going to take action, as that's still a very touchy subject for me.
Further more, you asked me why I'm dwelling on this, when you're the one who seems to really be dwelling on this. Are you in the group of people on this board who seem to think Fowler is the scum of the earth for this? And trying to make it out like he beat this guy down into a bloody pulp?
(07-19-2017, 11:05 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 10:34 PM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ]Sure somebody can. But that person runs the risk of sounding like they are justifying Fowler's actions. Your first post I responded to read just like that. You acknowledged it wasn't the smartest thing he did, but when on to point out hypotheticals that would seemingly put Fowler in a better light. If you were responding directly to someone asking how this happened, it would have read differently.
If we knew exactly what was said, then I'd tell you straight up if I was going to justify Fowler's actions.
While you aren't suppose to put hands on somebody because of words, there's absolutely some words that can be said, which can be justified by chin checking somebody.
There isn't many words and normally I'd say to just walk away, but there's few instances where walking away just isn't going to happen. As an example for me, my father passed away last year unexpectedly and if somebody were to start spouting off negativity about my father to my face. You can bet I'm going to take action, as that's still a very touchy subject for me.
Further more, you asked me why I'm dwelling on this, when you're the one who seems to really be dwelling on this. Are you in the group of people on this board who seem to think Fowler is the scum of the earth for this? And trying to make it out like he beat this guy down into a bloody pulp?
Let me start by saying sorry about your father. My condolences.
About my thoughts on Fowler, no, I don't think he's the scum of the earth, either for this or any of his other transgressions. I do think he suffers from a serious character flaw, which is his callous disregard for others. Do I think he can change? Sure, anything is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Back to the supposition of what happened. Could it have been some vile racist utterance that provoked him? Certainly, but given Fowler's past and his clear disregard for others, does he deserve the benefit of the doubt? He doesn't get it from me.
(07-20-2017, 12:35 AM)Jagsfan4life9/28/82 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2017, 11:05 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]If we knew exactly what was said, then I'd tell you straight up if I was going to justify Fowler's actions.
While you aren't suppose to put hands on somebody because of words, there's absolutely some words that can be said, which can be justified by chin checking somebody.
There isn't many words and normally I'd say to just walk away, but there's few instances where walking away just isn't going to happen. As an example for me, my father passed away last year unexpectedly and if somebody were to start spouting off negativity about my father to my face. You can bet I'm going to take action, as that's still a very touchy subject for me.
Further more, you asked me why I'm dwelling on this, when you're the one who seems to really be dwelling on this. Are you in the group of people on this board who seem to think Fowler is the scum of the earth for this? And trying to make it out like he beat this guy down into a bloody pulp?
Let me start by saying sorry about your father. My condolences.
About my thoughts on Fowler, no, I don't think he's the scum of the earth, either for this or any of his other transgressions. I do think he suffers from a serious character flaw, which is his callous disregard for others. Do I think he can change? Sure, anything is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Back to the supposition of what happened. Could it have been some vile racist utterance that provoked him? Certainly, but given Fowler's past and his clear disregard for others, does he deserve the benefit of the doubt? He doesn't get it from me.
I appreciate that and Thank You.
As for the rest of your post, I think he falls into a category that a lot of other young athletes do. People who have been given everything, due to their superior talent.
They have always been the "big man on campus" per se. It gives them a sense of self entitlement. Add into that, that they're still young, immature, have more money than they know what to do with and don't fully think before they act.
None of that is a reason why he should be doing what he does, but I definitely believe it plays a part. Not just with him, but plenty of other young athletes and people in general. Not all of them and I'm not saying that's solely the reason why they're doing this, but I definitely believe it plays a big role in a lot of the cases.
I did not intend to make this a racism thing at all. Nor did I intend on making any of you believe I was insisting that this occurred solely because of racism. I was simply making a statement that it could not be completely ruled out as a possible scenario, considering our outside knowledge of the situation. The victim involved could very well be another black man himself, which would make this all a moot point regarding racism.