(01-22-2018, 09:21 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (01-21-2018, 11:38 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]This was the moment we switched from playing to win to playing not to lose and it was reflected in the play of our young team and the play calling throughout the second half.
When you do this when you are playing away against a team that is lead by a guy like Brady, it's the equivalent of game plan suicide. These guys always play to win.
I'm not sure what the coaching staff thought they would accomplish. It makes you wonder if they had ever watched the patriots play before.
It completely sucked all the momentum out of our team.
Such a shame.
The [BLEEP] you going on about? We got hosed by the Zebras. We converted a 3rd and 8 or 9 to Lewis and those cheating [BLEEP] waited to see the result of the play before they decided to throw a flag out for delay of game. That's a crock of [BLEEP]. Then they allowed the [BLEEP] to march down field on an iffy helmet to helmet hit where Church led with his shoulder first and then Bouye gets [BLEEP] after he played Cooks fairly out of bounds with coverage and somehow that's PI.
It was clearly delay of game, the refs didn't catch it right away. Blake was calling for the ball at the 3 second mark, Linder didn't respond. Was yelling at the TV for him to snap it. The Church hit is going to get called 99% of the time. I agree on the Bouye PI, that was total crap.
(01-22-2018, 01:21 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 01:16 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Kneeling there is not an OC decision. It's a HC decision.
Hackett doesn't trust Bortles in a number of situations for good reason, but it wasn't his call to take a knee there.
If Marrone says let's see if we can score - then Hackett starts dialing up sideline passes.
It is frusturating as hell. Considering he made a 52 yarder already. To not even try to get into FG rang was crazy. Not to mention, they could have burned those TO when Brady went into the no huddle on goalline for previous TD.
Doug Marrone has shown weakness in situational coaching as Pete Prisco calls it.
Agree. That was the first step on the 'playing not to lose' ladder. Didn't keep their foot on the gas like they did the week before, and I believe it deflated them. However, the turning point play was the Jack fumble recovery being blown dead, IMO.
(01-22-2018, 10:50 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:48 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]No one needs to go. That's the point. Answers? Who knows but I can assure you dumping Hackett isn't one of them.
And you don't think the refs were an issue? Gimme a break. You're almost as bad at BKLYN.
Of course the refs were an issue, BUT we had chance after chance after chance after chance to capitalize on big stops and a turnover and did absolutely nothing due to Hackett's play calling.
All I am saying is, I am tired of people defending Hackett because of Bortles limitations. Get the man a QB he wants and lets see what he is made of as an OC.
It's. Not. The. Playcalling.
It's execution. The series after the fumble recovery (which should never have been blown dead) They ran Fournette, then pass to Lewis (mugged) then a 7 yard completion to Hurns. How is that playcalling? You're nitpicking something that isn't there. They called more pass plays in the 2nd half than run plays.
(01-22-2018, 10:47 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:44 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Don't confuse "most of the year" as meaning "every game".
It's pretty clear the entire coaching was too conservative in the 2nd half. Hackett included.
So I'll ask you this simple question. What was your expectations for the offense this season and how did Hackett fail to meet them.
My expectation was more creativity. It's like Hackett was reading this MB and didn't start throwing on first down until the entire world was complaining about it. Also, I would mix in more read option with BB mobility. Especially yesterday once they were forced to respect the run.
Edit: Also, any QB who doesn't have the capability or permission to audible out of a run into a stacked box doesn't deserve 20M a year.
All year we had receivers schemed open through creativity and he exploited matchups too.
I mean, honestly, where did you expect the offense to rank this season? We were one of the best rushing teams. We were one of the best first quarter offenses in the league (sign of gameplanning and preparation) , we had an efficient passing attack considering we had no #1 receiver. We scored more than enough points to win games. Blake mostly looked comfortable and poised this year (huge achievement).
Hackett far exceeded what was expected out of the offense this year....how is he a problem? (And I hated the hire)
All I am saying is, I believe in the regular season, we may have overachieved and there is no guarantee we will be back here next year, an no guarantee we will even win the division.
I am happy how the season turned out BUT I am also always looking for ways to get better. I think Tom will address those gaping holes. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Jaguars get a competent OC for the first time in forever. Exceeds all the expectations we had for the offense in 2017.
But he's a "problem" because some fans have a distorted view of how offenses work and want to overreact after a bad loss.
Why do the Patriots run like clockwork even though different coordinators run through there on a consistent basis? BB and #12. BB sets the tone and #12 executes. IMO this starts with Marrone. He sets the conservative tone on both sides of the ball. It will become more apparent to people as time goes on.
I expect them to draft O-line heavy to run Marrone's philosophy. Run, run, run, and run more.
(01-22-2018, 11:00 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]All I am saying is, I believe in the regular season, we may have overachieved and there is no guarantee we will be back here next year, an no guarantee we will even win the division.
I am happy how the season turned out BUT I am also always looking for ways to get better. I think Tom will address those gaping holes. In fact, I'm sure of it.
No. That's not all you're saying.
You're trying to find a scapegoat for the loss yesterday and you found it in Hackett. Did you have issues in the Steelers game?
Of course there is no guarantee we will be back next year. Who said that?
The Jags can get better by improving the guard positions, re-signing ARob and drafting a pass catching TE. Not by replacing an OC who has confidence in Blake, schemes well and helped take this team to the AFC championship game.
(01-22-2018, 11:00 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]All I am saying is, I believe in the regular season, we may have overachieved and there is no guarantee we will be back here next year, an no guarantee we will even win the division.
I am happy how the season turned out BUT I am also always looking for ways to get better. I think Tom will address those gaping holes. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Theres no guarantee anyone will make it back to the AFC championship game (bar the Pats) and there's no guarantee teams will win the division every year (bad the Pats). So that doesn't mean much at all.
Everyone wants to get better. You decided you want an OC who had a very good year gone because of an overreaction to a bad half and because you have a distorted view of what can reasonably be expected from this offense.
(01-21-2018, 11:46 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ] (01-21-2018, 11:39 PM)JNev Wrote: [ -> ]I didn’t love it but it hardly set a tone for the 2nd half
It most certainly did. Conservative play with the focus of sitting on a lead and more worried about making mistakes than what the patriots could do.
The second half was dictated by this mindset.
Against the Patriots, you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't." A coach needs to recognize when to keep pressing and when to let up. 10 points is nothing against NE.
With only a 10 point lead you just can't run Fournette on 1st and 2nd down. 24 rushes for 76 yards? Then rely on Bortles to make a play on 3rd and long? Conservative play was simply playing to lose.
On the other hand, look what happened to the Falcons last year. Up 25 in the 4th Q. They should have slowed the game, but didn't. I'm sure Marrone learned from this. He did a good job with the Bills and then a great turnaround with the Jags.
(01-22-2018, 10:38 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:35 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]No, it tells you that we have a conservative coaching staff who are just fine with how Bortles plays.
And, PS, we did just finish up the best season in 20 years with a 4 point loss, on the road, against a ref-favored dynasty. So you should really be ready for at least 3 more seasons of BB5 at the helm.
There's no risk with LAAAAMMMMMBBBBBOOOOO kicking the ball.
None.
Zip.
Zilch.
Zero.
I'm fine with keeping Bortles around if we find another OC to better utilize his strengths. If we stay with Hack, we need a new QB. Or a new old QB.
Then you need a new coaching staff because THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT. No one pissing and moaning about Bortles today seems to get that. He is the QB they want for the offense they play. He showed with his growth and play this year that he will hand the ball off and move the ball through the air the way they want him to.
Okay so, I'm looked at some of the first half plays again an have been reading some interesting analysis from guys who actually watch tape.
The creative first plays were essentially a different offense than the Jags have used all season. It was more West Coast, reflective of the Kansas City Chiefs designs by truly forcing the defense to defend the entire field East-and-West. That worked very well. Apparently those sets were newly installed over the past few weeks to put a team like New England on it's heels, and the Jags simply ran out of plays because you cannot introduce that much stuff in a few weeks
So the question that begs, is why have the Jags not used that style all season if that was in their bag of tricks. To run that system, you need an accurate QB who will make quick decisions and go through progressions. That is not who Bortles was to start the season. He really developed into that as the season progressed, but it got really difficult to completely adapt the offensive system on the fly with limited real in-season practices in today's CBA and with the rotation of injured WR's and RB's, and even to some extent the O-Line towards the end of the season.
So if they simply ran out of plays out of those sets, they then just went back to what they had been doing before, but the middle of the line could not execute a power running game in the 2nd half because the Jags don't have an elite power-block offensive line. I think gong forward to next year, moving to a more balanced and spread out system has to be the goal no matter what.
If Hackett stays, the off season should be adding more of those spread packages into the offense to give it balance and trust that Blake can be what he was in the playoffs.
If Bortles is let go, you have to bring someone who they trust to run that style of offense.
If Hackett is let go, they have to bring in someone with creativity on offense.
Most likely I think they try the first option of keeping both, and trying to get some more consistent play makers.
(01-22-2018, 11:28 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:38 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm fine with keeping Bortles around if we find another OC to better utilize his strengths. If we stay with Hack, we need a new QB. Or a new old QB.
Then you need a new coaching staff because THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT. No one pissing and moaning about Bortles today seems to get that. He is the QB they want for the offense they play. He showed with his growth and play this year that he will hand the ball off and move the ball through the air the way they want him to.
Agreed.
(01-22-2018, 10:11 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:05 AM)badger Wrote: [ -> ]This is dumb. We throw an interception and give Patriots the lead going into halftime. Genius
Exactly the mindset the Patriots want you to have.
the game doesn't end at halftime.
there is an argument to be made that we got too conservative in the second half. But clamoring for us to air it out with 55 seconds before half, deep in our own territory is just stupid. maybe we could have got 3 points, IF YOURE LUCKY. This is just a stupid thing to gripe about.
(01-22-2018, 10:58 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:47 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]My expectation was more creativity. It's like Hackett was reading this MB and didn't start throwing on first down until the entire world was complaining about it. Also, I would mix in more read option with BB mobility. Especially yesterday once they were forced to respect the run.
Edit: Also, any QB who doesn't have the capability or permission to audible out of a run into a stacked box doesn't deserve 20M a year.
All year we had receivers schemed open through creativity and he exploited matchups too.
I mean, honestly, where did you expect the offense to rank this season? We were one of the best rushing teams. We were one of the best first quarter offenses in the league (sign of gameplanning and preparation) , we had an efficient passing attack considering we had no #1 receiver. We scored more than enough points to win games. Blake mostly looked comfortable and poised this year (huge achievement).
Hackett far exceeded what was expected out of the offense this year....how is he a problem? (And I hated the hire)
While i agree his scripted plays to cause mismatches is good. The problem lays in the fact that after he uses them in the first half, In the second half he never uses the same plays again or even trys to get creative. maybe he should script the whole game cause once he comes off the scripted plays he is all run run pass punt. that is the problem.
(01-22-2018, 07:51 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ] (01-21-2018, 11:51 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]Better chance of scoring points trying than kneeling. Do you really believe that we should waste a scoring opportunity with only 14 points playing a guy like Brady?
We have gotten in field goal multiple times with that amount of time on the clock. A field goal there means we are kicking for the win at the end of the game instead of having to go for it on 4th down.
Suppose they don’t take a knee there and instead they go aggressively and have something like a pick six? I am sure you would have started a thread saying they should have taken a knee and not risked giving New England another chance to score.
I don’t have a problem with that call. There are plenty of other play calls to hate in that game, especially in the fourth quarter. This wasn’t one of them.
Maybe you would start a thread complaining about that. I definitely wouldn't complain about following normal football protocol with nearly a minute left to work with. It's not like there was 20 seconds left with no time outs.
Heck, if they run a couple of plays and don't get any movement going, they still have the opportunity to down the ball and take it to the half. They didn't even try running something conservative to see if they could get some traction going for a drive.
With 55 seconds and two timeouts the entire playbook is still open to the offense. They aren't forced into an overly aggressive situation because they have plenty of time to move the ball down the field to get into a scoring opportunity.
No team the entire season has taken a knee with that much time left in the half. I guess Marrone really outsmarted the rest of the league with this call.
I don't care if it's not even an aggressive attempt to go down field. Have two running plays already called and run the ball on 1st and 2nd down quickly and see what happens. If you don't get at least a 1st down, then just let the clock run out after 2nd down or if the Pats use their last timeout, run again on 3rd down to either get the 1st down and start using your own timeouts or let the half end. If Fournette gets to the second level, who knows what might happen. The Pats having only 1 timeout wasn't a threat for them to get the ball back. We had some free run attempts there that were opted not to be used. What was Fournette drafted for then?
The only explanation is Marrone felt it was better to kill the momentum New England had by just ending the half, but I disagree with that strategy and I'm sure in retrospect he probably does now as well.
(01-22-2018, 12:15 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 07:51 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]Suppose they don’t take a knee there and instead they go aggressively and have something like a pick six? I am sure you would have started a thread saying they should have taken a knee and not risked giving New England another chance to score.
I don’t have a problem with that call. There are plenty of other play calls to hate in that game, especially in the fourth quarter. This wasn’t one of them.
Maybe you would start a thread complaining about that. I definitely wouldn't complain about following normal football protocol with nearly a minute left to work with. It's not like there was 20 seconds left with no time outs.
Heck, if they run a couple of plays and don't get any movement going, they still have the opportunity to down the ball and take it to the half. They didn't even try running something conservative to see if they could get some traction going for a drive.
With 55 seconds and two timeouts the entire playbook is still open to the offense. They aren't forced into an overly aggressive situation because they have plenty of time to move the ball down the field to get into a scoring opportunity.
No team the entire season has taken a knee with that much time left in the half. I guess Marrone really outsmarted the rest of the league with this call.
No one else was taking a lead into the locker room in Gillette Stadium at the half of the AFC title game either, so, yeah, he did outsmart the rest of the league.
(01-22-2018, 12:15 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 07:51 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]Suppose they don’t take a knee there and instead they go aggressively and have something like a pick six? I am sure you would have started a thread saying they should have taken a knee and not risked giving New England another chance to score.
I don’t have a problem with that call. There are plenty of other play calls to hate in that game, especially in the fourth quarter. This wasn’t one of them.
Maybe you would start a thread complaining about that. I definitely wouldn't complain about following normal football protocol with nearly a minute left to work with. It's not like there was 20 seconds left with no time outs.
Heck, if they run a couple of plays and don't get any movement going, they still have the opportunity to down the ball and take it to the half. They didn't even try running something conservative to see if they could get some traction going for a drive.
With 55 seconds and two timeouts the entire playbook is still open to the offense. They aren't forced into an overly aggressive situation because they have plenty of time to move the ball down the field to get into a scoring opportunity.
No team the entire season has taken a knee with that much time left in the half. I guess Marrone really outsmarted the rest of the league with this call.
He simply didn't trust Bortles enough not to throw an INT or make some other big mistake.
This (could be/should be) extremely telling regarding Blake's future. You've seen the best he can be and if you look at his stats, year, by year, he's average. Someone fell in love with him after his 2nd (and best) year.
(01-22-2018, 11:37 AM)badger Wrote: [ -> ] (01-22-2018, 10:11 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly the mindset the Patriots want you to have.
the game doesn't end at halftime.
there is an argument to be made that we got too conservative in the second half. But clamoring for us to air it out with 55 seconds before half, deep in our own territory is just stupid. maybe we could have got 3 points, IF YOURE LUCKY. This is just a stupid thing to gripe about.
You don't need to air it out with 55 seconds and 2 timeouts left. Theres a reason no team in 2017 kneeled with a minute left in the half.
It's not a stupid thing to gripe about. It's one of multiple "moments" we lost. Mostly through our own incompetence. You don't play scared against the Patriots and win.
We did that with a minute to go in the 2nd half and continued to do so for the entire second half.
Might as well just kneel at the start of the game, that way we are sure that no one can make a mistake. And as we are all very aware of, the score board counts mistakes and not points.