Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(03-16-2018, 12:43 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 10:39 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]So, who do you guys hope we get if we go for a QB in the first round? I am a fan of Allen myself.

I like Allen in the first too - but they probably can't trade up high enough for him without giving up way too much. 

I really like Mike White in the third if he's there. I'd even consider moving up higher in the third to take him if they have info on another team taking him sooner. 

Regarding the teal leaves. 

Yes - It seems A-Rob didn't like the offer and non-tag - so he cut off communication. 

Colvin wanted to stay but went to the money and chance to play outside. 

Caldwell feels the same way about Moncreif as I do.  Loads of untapped potential and hungry to prove it. 

I think they draft a QB before the fourth round. 

---

RE: the comment about Dave not being genuine in this presser.  I think hat's off base for this particular presser.  He's simply talking about free agent that are now in the building. He's being his usual transparent self here. 

The one or two references to the draft are the only moments where he clams up (or might mislead) and we can expect that between now and the draft.

I agree we don't really have the ammo to trade up enough for a top four QB. I looked into this before and discovered trading our 1st and 2nd picks would only net us the 17th overall pick. Even if one drops that far, I really don't care for this option because the first round trade ups we've done in the past have been disastrous. I don't want another Blaine Gabbert or Derrick Harvey. Allen in particular looks very erratic when you watch his game tapes as opposed to his highlights.

(03-16-2018, 10:55 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]
Brissett would be a great add, but the Colts would be insane to trade him within the division.

All of those options actually make plenty of sense except for Kaep as he would turn off too many fans with his antics. In particular, I could totally see Fitz or Cutler on the sideline holding a clipboard. 

I'm thinking to back when the Jaguars traded Gabbert to SF for a 6th rounder. Not really comparing the talent levels, but I'm thinking the Colts need draft picks more than they need a backup QB. If Luck is healthy, they have to build around him. If he's not, it's full rebuild.

(03-16-2018, 11:08 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 12:43 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I like Allen in the first too - but they probably can't trade up high enough for him without giving up way too much. 

I really like Mike White in the third if he's there. I'd even consider moving up higher in the third to take him if they have info on another team taking him sooner. 

Regarding the teal leaves. 

Yes - It seems A-Rob didn't like the offer and non-tag - so he cut off communication. 

Colvin wanted to stay but went to the money and chance to play outside. 

Caldwell feels the same way about Moncreif as I do.  Loads of untapped potential and hungry to prove it. 

I think they draft a QB before the fourth round. 

---

RE: the comment about Dave not being genuine in this presser.  I think hat's off base for this particular presser.  He's simply talking about free agent that are now in the building. He's being his usual transparent self here. 

The one or two references to the draft are the only moments where he clams up (or might mislead) and we can expect that between now and the draft.

I agree we don't really have the ammo to trade up enough for a top four QB. I looked into this before and discovered trading our 1st and 2nd picks would only net us the 17th overall pick. I really don't care for this option though because the first round trade ups we've done in the past have been disastrous. I don't want another Blaine Gabbert or Derrick Harvey.

I think we do. Fowler can be used as I mentioned earlier. I think it's very likely he is dangled out there if they really want a guy.

(03-16-2018, 11:10 PM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 11:08 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we don't really have the ammo to trade up enough for a top four QB. I looked into this before and discovered trading our 1st and 2nd picks would only net us the 17th overall pick. I really don't care for this option though because the first round trade ups we've done in the past have been disastrous. I don't want another Blaine Gabbert or Derrick Harvey.

I think we do. Fowler can be used as I mentioned earlier. I think it's very likely he is dangled out there if they really want a guy.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Fowler trading before the start of the season at all.

(03-16-2018, 01:06 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 12:27 AM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]The way his contract is structured it wouldn't make sense to cut him before year 2. If we cut him after 1 year he would count 16.5 mil in dead money against our cap the following year. Add to that the cost of bringing in another number two, which would probably be at least 5 mill towards the cap, and you have a cap hit for your back up QB at 21.5 mil. Keeping Bortles for the second year would be a 21 mil cap hit so it would be cheaper just to keep him as a back up.

After year two his dead money drops to 5 mil.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-...les-14412/

It's probable that he'll be here next year, but the team crafted themselves an out after this season in the deal if they choose to take it.  There is offset language in his 2019 $6.5 guarantee amount which means the Jags aren't necessarily the ones who have to pay that and it's mentioned underneath his contract breakdown on the spotrac page.  It also means if he's on another team next year through trade or release, that the dead money amount wouldn't necessarily be $16.5 million.  It could be as low as $10 million based on whether or not he's making $6.5 million or more elsewhere and why wouldn't he get that or something close to it even if he's just the dedicated backup somewhere?

Why would the Jags put that language in the deal if they were absolutely reserved to their fate of being stuck with him for 2 years?  Good GM's can't necessarily predict the future, but good GM's do account for multiple scenarios and attempt to give themselves options by not hog-tying the team with bad deals.  If Bortles is on another roster next year earning $6.5 million or more the Jags don't owe him a dime in 2019 or 2020, they just have to account for the remaining signing bonus (which has already been paid to him) for each of those years as far as the cap is concerned.  If you're the GM and you know it's time to move on, you're not going to pay him his base salary of $16 million next year and take the total cap hit of $21 million next year by keeping him on the roster just to push the final $5 million of dead money out to 2020.  That would be insane.  Considering what mega deals we'll have to do in 2020, it may be more advantageous to take the $10 million dead cap hit in 2019 versus leaving any of it for 2020 anyway.

Lastly, if you're going to craft such an out in the deal, would you take the risk of having to start your search for his replacement next offseason after you've decided to move on or would you prefer to have the potential heir apparent on the roster already this season?  And if you're going to potentially eat a $10 million dollar dead cap hit next year, wouldn't you prefer that heir apparent to be on a rookie deal rather than it being a more pricey vet?  And now go through the list of bona fide starting QBs in the league that are at no risk of being unseated and add up the number of those that were drafted beyond the 2nd round.  I can't really think of anyone except Wilson and Brady, maybe I'm missing someone.  It would be nice to luck into landing such a guy beyond the 2nd round, but no GM is going to plan to do that. The guys you take beyond the 2nd are ones you're drafting to be the backup or a developmental guy.  I'd take it a step further and say that if you're getting a quality guy in the 2nd round it is going to be near the top of that round and not where we will currently be drafting.  Anyway, if you build that out into the contract the next logical step in my mind is to get a legitimate rookie QB that has the potential to unseat Bortles by next season.  I know this has been a bit long winded, but for those that aren't aware of the offset you have to walk through it entirely to understand the how's and why's of it.  

Best case scenario is even if we take a QB high, that it pushes Bortles to be his best and we have two quality QBs on the roster and we can flip one in a year or two for significant compensation.  Anyway, to me that contract said they were taking a QB high (if the draft falls the way they need it to, and that's a big if), else why bother putting the offset language in there?

The offset language is in there just in case he does leave after the year, but it doesn't make that scenario likely. The ideal situation would be for Blake to stick around two seasons with the new QB taking over in 2020 if not mid-2019.  I can totally see a late 3rd round pick developing into a starter by then. 

(03-16-2018, 02:07 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]It would be easier to stomach if the vastly superior Robey-Coleman and Patrick Robinson didn't sign for less money. As is it's quite possibly the worst deal of this FA period.

Then again, Robey-Coleman is really tiny and Patrick Robinson is on the wrong side of 30. 

(03-16-2018, 03:41 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 02:47 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]If I am not mistaken, offset language only applies to salaries and not bonus money.

For us to recoup any savings, Bortles would have to receive a 6.5 mil+ salary from whomever signs him for the year 2019 which would be high for a back up. If Bortles gets cut after 1 year and goes on to be a back up, he would most likely get a deal that would pay him the veteran minimum salary in 2019 of 805k forcing us to compensate him for the remaining amount of the 6.5 mil he was due. So there would be no benefit to cut him if his play relegates him to a back up player.

So for us to take advantage of the offset language Bortles would have to play next year at a high enough level to command a starter level contract on the open market and we would have to have a player that plays even better than that.

So unless we find a Russel Wilson type transcending player in the draft who immediately plays at a high level or we decide to spend big bucks in the the FA market next year for a top notch QB even if Bortles is playing well ( both of which are unlikely scenarios), Bortles contract is effectively a 2 year deal.

Yes the offset applies to his the portion of his base salary that is guaranteed for 2019 ($6.5 million) and not the signing bonus.  

I think you're glossing over the "why was the offset language put in there" question.  They've provided themselves flexibility with the deal, even in 2019.  They piss that away if they don't get a legitimate heir on the roster this year.  And Bortles doesn't have to play poorly necessarily for the front office to decide to move on, it could be just continued inconsistency.  

Also, you're grossly under estimating backup QB salaries especially for a guy that now has playoff wins under his belt and is still young.  Chad Henne got $3.25 million from us last year and $4.75 million the year before.  Chad Henne.  Nick Foles got $7.6 million last year to backup Wentz.  Chase Daniel just signed a 2 year $10 million dollar deal to back up Brees.  In Jet land, McCown just got a 1 year $10 million dollar deal to start and Teddy got $5 million to back him up.

There's a handful of vet backup QBs getting vet minimum or something close to it and those guys have never done anything in their career.  The rest are either on their rookie deals or they're vets getting $2 to $4 million.  I don't know that there are any with playoff experience let alone playoff wins.  In the scenario where Bortles is cut next year, vet minimum isn't happening for him.  He'll get at least $5 million to back someone up next year and probably more in a situation where he's holding the seat warm for a rookie in waiting.

I agree that Blake probably at least gets $6.5 mil to back up somewhere, although I could also see him telling someone he'd play for the minimum knowing that the offset language is in there.

BTW, Siemian signed a 1-year, $2 mil deal with the Vikings to backup up Cousins.

(03-16-2018, 11:10 PM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 11:08 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree we don't really have the ammo to trade up enough for a top four QB. I looked into this before and discovered trading our 1st and 2nd picks would only net us the 17th overall pick. I really don't care for this option though because the first round trade ups we've done in the past have been disastrous. I don't want another Blaine Gabbert or Derrick Harvey.

I think we do. Fowler can be used as I mentioned earlier. I think it's very likely he is dangled out there if they really want a guy.

Fowler can certainly be used as trade bait, in addition to Hurns. Also we can’t rule out the possibility of future draft picks being included as well. The trade KC made last year could net us similar results depending on the trade partner. They went from 27 to 10.

(03-16-2018, 11:48 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 03:41 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Yes the offset applies to his the portion of his base salary that is guaranteed for 2019 ($6.5 million) and not the signing bonus.  

I think you're glossing over the "why was the offset language put in there" question.  They've provided themselves flexibility with the deal, even in 2019.  They piss that away if they don't get a legitimate heir on the roster this year.  And Bortles doesn't have to play poorly necessarily for the front office to decide to move on, it could be just continued inconsistency.  

Also, you're grossly under estimating backup QB salaries especially for a guy that now has playoff wins under his belt and is still young.  Chad Henne got $3.25 million from us last year and $4.75 million the year before.  Chad Henne.  Nick Foles got $7.6 million last year to backup Wentz.  Chase Daniel just signed a 2 year $10 million dollar deal to back up Brees.  In Jet land, McCown just got a 1 year $10 million dollar deal to start and Teddy got $5 million to back him up.

There's a handful of vet backup QBs getting vet minimum or something close to it and those guys have never done anything in their career.  The rest are either on their rookie deals or they're vets getting $2 to $4 million.  I don't know that there are any with playoff experience let alone playoff wins.  In the scenario where Bortles is cut next year, vet minimum isn't happening for him.  He'll get at least $5 million to back someone up next year and probably more in a situation where he's holding the seat warm for a rookie in waiting.

I agree that Blake probably at least gets $6.5 mil to back up somewhere, although I could also see him telling someone he'd play for the minimum knowing that the offset language is in there.

BTW, Siemian signed a 1-year, $2 mil deal with the Vikings to backup up Cousins.

Blake is guaranteed to get 6.5 mil in 2019. He won't care how it's paid to him on paper.

(03-16-2018, 11:08 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 12:43 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I like Allen in the first too - but they probably can't trade up high enough for him without giving up way too much. 

I really like Mike White in the third if he's there. I'd even consider moving up higher in the third to take him if they have info on another team taking him sooner. 

Why are you more enamored with White than Lauletta?

Assuming we can take him at his word, “We have a plan” and “when it’s time to reveal the plan...” appear to suggest he has something very specific in mind.

And something he expects to happen.

My first thought was this might suggest a trade is being discussed, because if it was a move to sign one of the remaining free agents, wouldn’t it have happened by now?

And any plan to pick a late-round QB would be far from guaranteed, because he couldn’t be certain is target was available.

The other possibility (as has been discussed) is he is planning a move up in the draft. But it would have to be a big jump up the board if he’s looking to get someone other than Rudolph or Jackson. And I’m not sure we have the ability to do that without giving up our ability to replace our expensive veterans like Campbell, Jackson and Dareus.

So if it IS a trade, who are the options?

Man oh man y'all still talking about first round QB's they can get to replace Blake but some of y'all should forget it because that's not their plans. They want to win now so they going to draft a quarterback in the later rounds and get someone in the first round that can help the team win today. The people who still trying to find somebody to replace Blake Bortles right now please get over it and let the man live. I'm just saying let the man have a chance to lead this team even if some of you think he's incapable of doing it.

(03-17-2018, 07:02 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]Man oh man y'all still talking about first round QB's they can get to replace Blake but some of y'all should forget it because that's not their plans. They want to win now so they going to draft a quarterback in the later rounds and get someone in the first round that can help the team win today. The people who still trying to find somebody to replace Blake Bortles right now please get over it and let the man live. I'm just saying let the man have a chance to lead this team even if some of you think he's incapable of doing it.

Do you do anything here besides defend Bortles?  It gets really tiresome.

I like Bortles but I could absolutely see us taking a QB in the first round.  The way they've brought in people in FA they could go absolutely any direction right now.

Teams with STAR quarterbacks have drafted first round quarterbacks, I don't see how anyone that sees clearly couldn't see the Jaguars doing it.

(03-17-2018, 07:24 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-17-2018, 07:02 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]Man oh man y'all still talking about first round QB's they can get to replace Blake but some of y'all should forget it because that's not their plans. They want to win now so they going to draft a quarterback in the later rounds and get someone in the first round that can help the team win today. The people who still trying to find somebody to replace Blake Bortles right now please get over it and let the man live. I'm just saying let the man have a chance to lead this team even if some of you think he's incapable of doing it.

Do you do anything here besides defend Bortles?  It gets really tiresome.

I like Bortles but I could absolutely see us taking a QB in the first round.  The way they've brought in people in FA they could go absolutely any direction right now.

Teams with STAR quarterbacks have drafted first round quarterbacks, I don't see how anyone that sees clearly couldn't see the Jaguars doing it.

Agreed.   Keep in mind though, you’re replying to s guy who stated earlier that Coughlin is full on board with Bortles.  If that were the case that new contract wouldn’t have been only 3 years and would’ve been heftier.  

You know what would be an epic thread?  A Bortles v. McCarron v. Any FA thread.  Watch Jungle cat, Leopold/Space coast and hero debate. I think that would be entertaining.

(03-17-2018, 07:37 AM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-17-2018, 07:24 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]Do you do anything here besides defend Bortles?  It gets really tiresome.

I like Bortles but I could absolutely see us taking a QB in the first round.  The way they've brought in people in FA they could go absolutely any direction right now.

Teams with STAR quarterbacks have drafted first round quarterbacks, I don't see how anyone that sees clearly couldn't see the Jaguars doing it.

Agreed.   Keep in mind though, you’re replying to s guy who stated earlier that Coughlin is full on board with Bortles.  If that were the case that new contract wouldn’t have been only 3 years and would’ve been heftier.  

You know what would be an epic thread?  A Bortles v. McCarron v. Any FA thread.  Watch Jungle cat, Leopold/Space coast and hero debate. I think that would be entertaining.

Story is DATED March 9th, 2018

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22695...-year-deal

Ryan Fitzpatrick returns to Buccaneers on 1-year deal

(03-16-2018, 11:08 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-16-2018, 12:43 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I like Allen in the first too - but they probably can't trade up high enough for him without giving up way too much. 

I really like Mike White in the third if he's there. I'd even consider moving up higher in the third to take him if they have info on another team taking him sooner. 

Regarding the teal leaves. 

Yes - It seems A-Rob didn't like the offer and non-tag - so he cut off communication. 

Colvin wanted to stay but went to the money and chance to play outside. 

Caldwell feels the same way about Moncreif as I do.  Loads of untapped potential and hungry to prove it. 

I think they draft a QB before the fourth round. 

---

RE: the comment about Dave not being genuine in this presser.  I think hat's off base for this particular presser.  He's simply talking about free agent that are now in the building. He's being his usual transparent self here. 

The one or two references to the draft are the only moments where he clams up (or might mislead) and we can expect that between now and the draft.

I agree we don't really have the ammo to trade up enough for a top four QB. I looked into this before and discovered trading our 1st and 2nd picks would only net us the 17th overall pick. Even if one drops that far, I really don't care for this option because the first round trade ups we've done in the past have been disastrous. I don't want another Blaine Gabbert or Derrick Harvey. Allen in particular looks very erratic when you watch his game tapes as opposed to his highlights.

I watch a lot of Wyoming games. As for why you draft Josh Allen, I can count the number of QBs I've seen over the past fifty years with a comparable arm with seven fingers. Doug Williams, Jim Kelly, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Jeff George, Terry Bradshaw, and Johnny Unitas. 

Josh Allen's elite arm strength makes him a Super Bowl contending quarterback automatically. He will need some grooming to learn a pro system and how to make plays within such a system. A team may decide that he is too valuable to bench and want to teach him on the fly.

(03-17-2018, 06:42 AM)Andy G Wrote: [ -> ]Assuming we can take him at his word, “We have a plan” and “when it’s time to reveal the plan...” appear to suggest he has something very specific in mind.

And something he expects to happen.

My first thought was this might suggest a trade is being discussed, because if it was a move to sign one of the remaining free agents, wouldn’t it have happened by now?

And any plan to pick a late-round QB would be far from guaranteed, because he couldn’t be certain is target was available.

The other possibility (as has been discussed) is he is planning a move up in the draft. But it would have to be a big jump up the board if he’s looking to get someone other than Rudolph or Jackson.  And I’m not sure we have the ability to do that without giving up our ability to replace our expensive veterans like Campbell, Jackson and Dareus.

So if it IS a trade, who are the options?

If we were to trade up with our 2nd round pick we would likely net the 17th pick. At that spot, we might be able to get Calvin Ridley, Mike McGlinchy, Roquan Smith or Dallas Goedert.

(03-17-2018, 05:37 AM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: [ -> ]Why are you more enamored with White than Lauletta?

Technique. 

I think he'd take less work to fix. 

His footwork in his dropback through to his release is superior and consistent. He stands taller at the point of release and gets the ball out higher where it won't be easily batted.

(03-16-2018, 02:47 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]If I am not mistaken, offset language only applies to salaries and not bonus money.

FWIW, I asked Andrew Brandt this question on twitter and he says offsets cover both salaries and bonus money on any new deal.  

It's a 1 year deal if the Jags choose to treat it that way.

(03-17-2018, 07:24 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-17-2018, 07:02 AM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]Man oh man y'all still talking about first round QB's they can get to replace Blake but some of y'all should forget it because that's not their plans. They want to win now so they going to draft a quarterback in the later rounds and get someone in the first round that can help the team win today. The people who still trying to find somebody to replace Blake Bortles right now please get over it and let the man live. I'm just saying let the man have a chance to lead this team even if some of you think he's incapable of doing it.

Do you do anything here besides defend Bortles?  It gets really tiresome.

I like Bortles but I could absolutely see us taking a QB in the first round.  The way they've brought in people in FA they could go absolutely any direction right now.

Teams with STAR quarterbacks have drafted first round quarterbacks, I don't see how anyone that sees clearly couldn't see the Jaguars doing it.

(03-17-2018, 07:37 AM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-17-2018, 07:24 AM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]Do you do anything here besides defend Bortles?  It gets really tiresome.

I like Bortles but I could absolutely see us taking a QB in the first round.  The way they've brought in people in FA they could go absolutely any direction right now.

Teams with STAR quarterbacks have drafted first round quarterbacks, I don't see how anyone that sees clearly couldn't see the Jaguars doing it.

Agreed.   Keep in mind though, you’re replying to s guy who stated earlier that Coughlin is full on board with Bortles.  If that were the case that new contract wouldn’t have been only 3 years and would’ve been heftier.  

You know what would be an epic thread?  A Bortles v. McCarron v. Any FA thread.  Watch Jungle cat, Leopold/Space coast and hero debate. I think that would be entertaining.

You know what gets so tiresome is people like you Rico that want to rinse, wash, repeat on the same topics and negativity on Blake Bortles every day as if you whine and complain enough about him your wish will come true. I don't know Space Coast Jags and never met the man a day in my life so I don't care y'all are mad at me when I speak my peace on the Blake Bortles situation. Y'all hanging onto every word Dave said at the press conference like a geek in High School and a pretty girl a high school that gives him a wave and a smile and thinks all of a sudden she's romantically in love with you. All I'm saying is let Blake play the 2019 season before y'all trying to replace him again with your favorite QB of the month because that's getting old too especially from people like you. 

As far as you Jags whats more funny is when people like you have a hissy fit because things don't go your way regard to this franchise decision on things which is comical to me. When I said Tom Coughlin is on board with Blake I was home by 4 next year and disregard the extension listen which helps my case but listen to what the man said to Dan hicken on cbs47 and how he just blows about Blake and that tells me he went from a man who wasn't a fan of him to being 1 / based on not only has played but the way he handled himself as a man. You all here starting to become worse than Alfie Crow and his minions on Big Cat Country with this Blake hate and negativity about him. I will say it again they're not drafting a quarterback in the first round if you don't like what I'm saying if you feel confident otherwise let's put some money on it and I'll be more than happy to be anyone on the situation. Just DM me and I will give you my name address phone number and any other information you and others need from me to make this bet a reality. Let's stop being immature and act like adults for once if we don't agree on everything Jaguar related situations.