The same people whining about the Jags winning today are the same ones that would be losing their minds for the Jags losing 8 in a row.
No one knows what could happen leading up to the draft and to want to lose on purpose is just plain stupid. The fans that continue to stick by this team should be rewarded with every win the Jags can get...regardless of draft position.
(12-02-2018, 09:58 PM)SCJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]The same people whining about the Jags winning today are the same ones that would be losing their minds for the Jags losing 8 in a row. ...
That's probably true.
Also true:
There are about 70% less people here celebrating a win than there typically are bemoaning a loss.
The number of folks that only show up to complain has become kind-of crazy.
(12-02-2018, 08:39 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 07:05 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'll never bash anyone who feels like you, but I'll also never bash anyone who realizes we just went from what would have been 3rd or 4th pick in the draft to 9th. That could easily cost us a franchise changing QB. There are multiple angles to look at it.
No matter where we pick, the Jaguars can always move up by trading away picks. See what the Jets did with Sanchez or what the Chiefs did with Mahommes. The list goes on.
You always play to win the game. You can always move up. You can’t always move down though.
I agree. It's different in the NBA(that's why they have the lotto). Even then, tanking can really set back a franchise. It's hard to get out of that losing mentality/culture.
Tank during the road games. Give your own fans a good time by playing 100% at home
(12-02-2018, 09:13 PM)krauley Wrote: [ -> ]Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Bad example. He was a once in a lifetime QB.
My brain says the season is lost and playing for the highest draft pick is smart strategy.
But my heart says JUST WIN BABY! Shutting out the clots and severely damaging their wild card hopes is priceless.
(12-02-2018, 10:39 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]My brain says the season is lost and playing for the highest draft pick is smart strategy.
But my heart says JUST WIN BABY! Shutting out the clots and severely damaging their wild card hopes is priceless.
Exactly. I mean, how can I not want us to beat the T*tans on Thursday?
Flush those turds.
(12-02-2018, 07:05 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'll never bash anyone who feels like you, but I'll also never bash anyone who realizes we just went from what would have been 3rd or 4th pick in the draft to 9th. That could easily cost us a franchise changing QB. There are multiple angles to look at it.
Agreed.
The one caveat I have at this point is I don't know if we have been mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.
Granted, if we aren't, a TON would have to go right in order for us to get in. I know it is now impossible for us to win the division. If somehow we get in, it'll have to be through the wild card.
But as long as there is hope for us to get in, then win away.
(12-02-2018, 07:17 PM)tkappa511 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 07:05 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'll never bash anyone who feels like you, but I'll also never bash anyone who realizes we just went from what would have been 3rd or 4th pick in the draft to 9th. That could easily cost us a franchise changing QB. There are multiple angles to look at it.
We have had top picks over the last 10 years and still haven’t found a QB and your upset going to a 9th?
The failure to acquire a franchise QB during that time does not negate the innate advantages of having access to a larger draft pool at 4 than you would at 9.
(12-02-2018, 07:20 PM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 07:05 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'll never bash anyone who feels like you, but I'll also never bash anyone who realizes we just went from what would have been 3rd or 4th pick in the draft to 9th. That could easily cost us a franchise changing QB. There are multiple angles to look at it.
The draft is a crap shoot. There's probably more busts taken in the top 5 then future HOFers. I'll take the wins.
If the draft is, indeed, a crap shoot, why not try to mitigate the uncertainty by giving yourself access to a larger talent pool?
In all of the years this debate has raged on, not once has anyone advanced an argument AGAINST having access to a larger talent pool than a smaller one.
(12-02-2018, 07:40 PM)I am Yoda Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 07:20 PM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]The draft is a crap shoot. There's probably more busts taken in the top 5 then future HOFers. I'll take the wins.
(12-02-2018, 07:22 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Losing is for losers.
Tanking is for quitters.
Quitting is for the faint of heart.
Just win at all costs and let the chips fall where they may.
I couldn't agree more! If we fall a few spots in the draft, so what? Let the FO work their magic.
A lot has to go right for the FO to "work their magic."
1. The FO has to correctly evaluate the available talent.
2. The correctly evaluated talent has to be available on the board when the Jaguars pick.
3. If there is a legitimate fear the Jaguars' targeted player will not be available at the Jaguars regularly slotted pick, the Jaguars have to find a team above them in the draft order, high enough to get the player they are targeting, willing to trade with them at a price amenable to the team.
(12-02-2018, 07:58 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I get the logic of getting as high a draft pick as possible to get your best chance of top end talent. But I hate the idea we should try to lose games. It goes against every ideal of competitive sports. The Pats never have top #5 picks but they find guys. I get draft picks are important but for some people they seem to be the most important thing in football. It's all relative. Take the Cowboys with Cooper, Dallas needed a WR, now do they let the season Go and draft one in the 1st or trade it for an already established solid WR, who can help immediately and probably better than the rookie you draft and won't need a year or two to get to that level.
Plus one great rookie QB won't fix all the problems with the O.
They got the one in a million shot in drafting Brady as late as they did. That's how they are able to "make do."
The rest of their roster is not the most talented in the league now, nor have they been over the last 20 years.
(12-02-2018, 08:37 PM)Nikowho Wrote: [ -> ]I know only one thing for certain; I will NEVER want to see this team lose to the colts, either in a tanking manner or by just sheer incompetence.
I'll take a win over them any day of the week, thank you. Call me petty, but any day we can watch the Jags stack the deck against the colts winning the division is a good day.
I hate the Colts enough to not want them to have ever gotten their hands on Andrew Luck.
Considering there was no playoff spot at stake for the Jaguars, I would have rather the Jaguars lost that game at the end of the 2011 season to keep the Colts from getting Luck.
It would have kept the Colts from winning a lot of games since then, especially over the Jaguars. I love the Jaguars enough to have hated those results.
Consider also that Irsay certainly wasn't broken up over losing that game.
Not upset at all. The team needs to play hard, so that we can continue to identify weak spots.
JagFan81
I get the logic of getting as high a draft pick as possible to get your best chance of top end talent. But I hate the idea we should try to lose games. It goes against every ideal of competitive sports. The Pats never have top #5 picks but they find guys. I get draft picks are important but for some people they seem to be the most important thing in football. It's all relative. Take the Cowboys with Cooper, Dallas needed a WR, now do they let the season Go and draft one in the 1st or trade it for an already established solid WR, who can help immediately and probably better than the rookie you draft and won't need a year or two to get to that level.
Plus one great rookie QB won't fix all the problems with the O.
They got the one in a million shot in drafting Brady as late as they did. That's how they are able to "make do."
The rest of their roster is not the most talented in the league now, nor have they been over the last 20 years.
My point was more due to coaching and identifying player strengths and playing to them, it is possible to play in the NFL if you aren't drafted in the top 10. There's so many things to factor in with the success of a rookie and the fact there are as many failures as successes shows you how it can be a lottery.
How many top 5-10 picks have we had and what do we have to show for it? And those players were ranked high for a 'reason.
What type of O do we want to run? Do we have the personnel at each position to effectively play that system? Unless we see a drastic change with the O, we are still going to run the ball.
(12-02-2018, 08:39 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 07:05 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'll never bash anyone who feels like you, but I'll also never bash anyone who realizes we just went from what would have been 3rd or 4th pick in the draft to 9th. That could easily cost us a franchise changing QB. There are multiple angles to look at it.
No matter where we pick, the Jaguars can always move up by trading away picks. See what the Jets did with Sanchez or what the Chiefs did with Mahommes. The list goes on.
You always play to win the game. You can always move up. You can’t always move down though.
But that's the thing...teams can't always move up to get the guy they want.
In the great 1983 draft, the Chargers offered the Colts their three (3) first round draft picks that year for the chance to draft John Elway and the Colts turned them down.
Fifteen years later, the Colts were not willing to move out of that top spot in the 1998 draft. Peyton Manning was the QB.
Neither Tampa nor Tennessee were willing to trade down in 2015 off the top two spots despite both teams getting offers for those picks.
Now of the teams looking as if they will pick ahead of us in the draft order, many of them chose QBs this past draft, and some will probably be willing to trade down to accumulate picks to get players around their young signal callers to help them as Tennessee did in 2016.
But are you willing to pay the price? Over the years I've been on this board, Jaguars fans have never wanted to deal up.
(12-02-2018, 09:13 PM)krauley Wrote: [ -> ]Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Do you really want to formulate your team's draft strategy around every other team mis-evaluating your guy for 5-6 rounds before you land him? Brady is by far the exception, not the rule.
(12-02-2018, 10:29 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 09:13 PM)krauley Wrote: [ -> ]Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Bad example. He was a once in a lifetime QB.
Exactly.
I would put myself in the category of wanting them to be in the best position to draft the first QB off the board. Trading up is always costly, and for a team that will be releasing quality players due to cap reasons it isn't crazy to want the best draft picks possible.
(12-02-2018, 11:17 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 08:39 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]No matter where we pick, the Jaguars can always move up by trading away picks. See what the Jets did with Sanchez or what the Chiefs did with Mahommes. The list goes on.
You always play to win the game. You can always move up. You can’t always move down though.
But that's the thing...teams can't always move up to get the guy they want.
In the great 1983 draft, the Chargers offered the Colts their three (3) first round draft picks that year for the chance to draft John Elway and the Colts turned them down.
Fifteen years later, the Colts were not willing to move out of that top spot in the 1998 draft. Peyton Manning was the QB.
Neither Tampa nor Tennessee were willing to trade down in 2015 off the top two spots despite both teams getting offers for those picks.
Now of the teams looking as if they will pick ahead of us in the draft order, many of them chose QBs this past draft, and some will probably be willing to trade down to accumulate picks to get players around their young signal callers to help them as Tennessee did in 2016.
But are you willing to pay the price? Over the years I've been on this board, Jaguars fans have never wanted to deal up.
(12-02-2018, 09:13 PM)krauley Wrote: [ -> ]Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Do you really want to formulate your team's draft strategy around every other team mis-evaluating your guy for 5-6 rounds before you land him? Brady is by far the exception, not the rule.
(12-02-2018, 10:29 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Bad example. He was a once in a lifetime QB.
Exactly.
This is the first time i'm really willing to deal for a top 2 pick. If we can get our hands on Haskins it could change everything. It'll cost our first this year, our first next and likely one of the 2 3rd rounders we have this year. But if he pans out it'll be the best trade in franchise history. We can't languish in quarterback purgatory they need to be aggressive and get their guy to cash in on this defense and fournette.
(12-02-2018, 11:17 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-02-2018, 09:13 PM)krauley Wrote: [ -> ]Brady was selected with pick #199, a compensatory pick, in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL Draft.
Do you really want to formulate your team's draft strategy around every other team mis-evaluating your guy for 5-6 rounds before you land him?
Do you really want to lose three or four winnable games to pick 7th instead of 12th or 13th?
Do you have so little faith in your F.O. that you feel they can't land a quality player after dropping 5 spots down the order?
The draft is a crapshoot at every selection and while maneuvering upward is not guaranteed - it's also no great mystery. Several teams accomplish it every season successfully. The prospect of it doesn't strike great fear in most GMs.
Dropping 5, 6, 7 spots in the draft is completely worth it to me to see the team fix the things that have been broken throughout the season - and to more accurately evaluate the true state of the roster.
(12-02-2018, 11:33 PM)Firesky Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid='1175191' dateline='1543807058']
Bullseye
But that's the thing...teams can't always move up to get the guy they want.
In the great 1983 draft, the Chargers offered the Colts their three (3) first round draft picks that year for the chance to draft John Elway and the Colts turned them down.
Fifteen years later, the Colts were not willing to move out of that top spot in the 1998 draft. Peyton Manning was the QB.
Neither Tampa nor Tennessee were willing to trade down in 2015 off the top two spots despite both teams getting offers for those picks.
Now of the teams looking as if they will pick ahead of us in the draft order, many of them chose QBs this past draft, and some will probably be willing to trade down to accumulate picks to get players around their young signal callers to help them as Tennessee did in 2016.
But are you willing to pay the price? Over the years I've been on this board, Jaguars fans have never wanted to deal up.
Do you really want to formulate your team's draft strategy around every other team mis-evaluating your guy for 5-6 rounds before you land him? Brady is by far the exception, not the rule.
Exactly.
This is the first time i'm really willing to deal for a top 2 pick. If we can get our hands on Haskins it could change everything. It'll cost our first this year, our first next and likely one of the 2 3rd rounders we have this year. But if he pans out it'll be the best trade in franchise history. We can't languish in quarterback purgatory they need to be aggressive and get their guy to cash in on this defense and fournette.
[/quote]
I am not sold the #2 overall pick gets us Haskins, especially if the kid from Oregon stays in school.
Gruden historically has preferred the veteran QB, and it wouldn't be a total shock for him to go that route. But the presence of the guaranteed ten year contract and the team relocating to as Vegas could cause the Raiders to take a QB early. If Gruden and company are willing to draft a QB early, I think Haskins or Grier are more Gruden types of QB than the Oregon kid. Not only that, the Raiders currently have three (3) first round picks next year. If they aren't at the very top of the draft order by season's end, they could easily end up there by late April. They could outbid everyone for that top overall spot if they wanted it and not bat an eye.
(12-02-2018, 11:36 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-02-2018, 11:17 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
Do you really want to formulate your team's draft strategy around every other team mis-evaluating your guy for 5-6 rounds before you land him?
1. Do you really want to lose three or four winnable games to pick 7th instead of 12th or 13th?
2. Do you have so little faith in your F.O. that you feel they can't land a quality player after dropping 5 spots down the order?
3. The draft is a crapshoot at every selection and while maneuvering upward is not guaranteed - it's also no great mystery. Several teams accomplish it every season successfully. The prospect of it doesn't strike great fear in most GMs.
4. Dropping 5, 6, 7 spots in the draft is completely worth it to me to see the team fix the things that have been broken throughout the season - and to more accurately evaluate the true state of the roster.
(numbering added)
1. Do I WANT to lose those games? As long as the Jaguars are still mathematically alive for the playoffs...no. Once eliminated from the playoffs, I wouldn't necessarily be broken up over losses. There is no advantage to winning late season games once the playoffs are out of the question. However, losses improve draft position. Improved draft position gives access to a larger, more talented talent pool, which presumably improves the chances of a team picking high to pick a player that can turn around its fortunes. That is why the NFL, in the long standing quest for parity and competitive balance, traditionally establishes the draft order in inverse order of record.
2. It's not a matter of faith in the front office to land a good player lower in the draft order. I have constantly expressed confidence in the ability of Caldwell to acquire talent. His eye for talent led us to the season we had last year and gave us the early season hope of a repeat performance this year. But I also know that this team needs a QB more than any other position, and franchise QBs are very difficult to come by. Assuming you can consider Mahomes a franchise signal caller, the Chiefs went four decades without one. They missed with guys like Todd Blackledge. Dave Kreig was average and a big time fumbler. They had Montana at the very end of his career. Smith was a decent to good, not great passer. I don't want that to happen to the Jaguars. Considering QB is a position that's hard to fill and usually in high demand, you simply can't count on franchise QBs falling very far, even though Mahomes fell to 11th, Rodgers fell to 24th-25th, and Brees and Favre fell to the 2nd round. The thing is, draft position doesn't just help in the first round. Even if the consensus that in a given draft, there is 2nd round value for signal callers, being at the top of the second round is better than being in the middle.
3. Yes, the draft IS a crapshoot. I want to mitigate that factor for us by giving us the best available access to the best and largest possible talent pool. As I've said before, Gene Smith couldn't draft his way out of a paper bag, but it's possible even he could have gotten the Andrew Luck pick right. But we'll never know, because picking 7th, he never had the chance to get him.
4. But that presumes the team can't accurately evaluate the talent on the roster if the team doesn't win. This coaching staff has coached this roster for the last two seasons-OTAs, minicamps, training camps, preseason games, practices, regular season games, and post season games. I submit unfamiliarity with this team did not doom the team this year. I think an excessive amount of injuries along the offensive side of the ball, poor QB play, and overall team immaturity doomed the team this year. Now is it possible the coaching staff and FO staff isn't here next year? Sadly yes. But there's no shortage of quality tape on any of our guys.
(12-02-2018, 10:19 PM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]Tank during the road games. Give your own fans a good time by playing 100% at home
Lol, not a bad policy. Then you can claim that your 'young' team just isn't good on the road. Plausible deniability.