Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(05-19-2021, 05:40 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 05:34 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Getting rid of Rosen for Murray was a no brainer.

But not getting rid of Scott for Griffin and Campbell?

(05-19-2021, 05:41 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 05:17 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh I seen the after, but it still doesn't change what you were trying to imply, otherwise why say it in the first place?

Drafting in higher rounds is ALWAYS better. Just because you can get lucky and hit on somebody in the 6th or 7th round, doesn't mean you wouldn't rather have a 3rd or 4th round pick over a 6th or 7th round pick.

Also, myself and many others knew that, that Fournette pick was a terrible pick. We said it from day 1. Him getting beat out shouldn't surprise anybody considering he was never that good to begin with.

I mean exactly what I said, after the draft it doesn't matter where you were drafted or even if you were drafted.  The best players play.  By what you think LF was a top 5 draft pick so he Is a top 5 player in that draft.  See how that sounds?

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(05-19-2021, 05:34 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Getting rid of Rosen for Murray was a no brainer.

But they only had Rosen for 1 year like we had Scott so he was unproven and Rosen was a top 10 pick

(05-19-2021, 05:52 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 05:40 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]But not getting rid of Scott for Griffin and Campbell?

They didn't get Griffin and Campbell for Scott. They got 6th round pick that cant be used for 2 years.

(05-19-2021, 05:41 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]I mean exactly what I said, after the draft it doesn't matter where you were drafted or even if you were drafted.  The best players play.  By what you think LF was a top 5 draft pick so he Is a top 5 player in that draft.  See how that sounds?

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But they only had Rosen for 1 year like we had Scott so he was unproven and Rosen was a top 10 pick

I literally just told you what I think and it was nothing close to that. I literally just said that Fournette was a terrible pick at #4 and he never should have been drafted there. If that's how you want to try and twist things in your head then so be it.

Murray was better than Rosen at every level. He was an obvious upgrade over Rosen. It was a no brainer. If you flip somebody for a guaranteed upgrade, you do it. That's exactly what that scenario was.

Edit: They also had 14 games worth of tape on Rosen to go off of, not just 80 snaps.

(05-19-2021, 04:58 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]The 4th isn't unknown though. It's Josiah Scott who barely played even when Greg Mabin, Chris Claybrooks and others played instead.

What do you suggest a team should do when they realize their pick was a bust?

(05-19-2021, 08:45 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 08:40 AM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]My guess is he was traded because Cullen likes big corners and Scott was far from that.

Oh, I'm certain that played a major role in this particular move, but it doesn't alter my overall point -  which applies to multiple moves. I also would prefer to see the due diligence of evaluating these players in person before jettisoning them.

(05-19-2021, 06:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 05:52 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]They didn't get Griffin and Campbell for Scott. They got 6th round pick that cant be used for 2 years.


I literally just told you what I think and it was nothing close to that. I literally just said that Fournette was a terrible pick at #4 and he never should have been drafted there. If that's how you want to try and twist things in your head then so be it.

Murray was better than Rosen at every level. He was an obvious upgrade over Rosen. It was a no brainer. If you flip somebody for a guaranteed upgrade, you do it. That's exactly what that scenario was.

Edit: They also had 14 games worth of tape on Rosen to go off of, not just 80 snaps.

So draft position doesn't matter if you dont like the pick?  He only had 80 snaps because undrafted and 7th round guys were over him on the depth chart.

(05-19-2021, 06:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 08:45 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, I'm certain that played a major role in this particular move, but it doesn't alter my overall point -  which applies to multiple moves. I also would prefer to see the due diligence of evaluating these players in person before jettisoning them.

First, they have tape on Scott.  Do you really think Scott will look significantly different in person than on tape?  Do the cameras lie?  If the Jaguars didn't like his height, is that going to magically change by bringing him to camp?

Second, while I suspect Meyer probably signs off on all trades, my impression is that Meyer is focused on the starters and other key players.  I believe the third stringers and the bottom of the 90 man roster are primarily handled by Baalke and his scouts.  Baalke was with the team last year and has had plenty of access to see Scott in person.

Third, if you wait, the deal may go away.  The Eagles may trade for a cornerback with another team.  Maybe an UDFA in their camp impresses them.  If the Jaguars then cut Scott, we get absolutely nothing.  If you find it doubtful that a player is going to make the team, you should take the trade offer when you have a chance.

(05-19-2021, 06:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 08:45 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, I'm certain that played a major role in this particular move, but it doesn't alter my overall point -  which applies to multiple moves. I also would prefer to see the due diligence of evaluating these players in person before jettisoning them.

First, they have tape on Scott.  Do you really think Scott will look significantly different in person than on tape?  Do the cameras lie?  If the Jaguars didn't like his height, is that going to magically change by bringing him to camp?

Second, while I suspect Meyer probably signs off on all trades, my impression is that Meyer is focused on the starters and other key players.  I believe the third stringers and the bottom of the 90 man roster are primarily handled by Baalke and his scouts.  Baalke was with the team last year and has had plenty of access to see Scott in person.

Third, if you wait, the deal may go away.  The Eagles may trade for a cornerback with another team.  Maybe an UDFA in their camp impresses them.  If the Jaguars then cut Scott, we get absolutely nothing.  If you find it doubtful that a player is going to make the team, you should take the trade offer when you have a chance.

(05-19-2021, 06:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 06:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]First, they have tape on Scott.  Do you really think Scott will look significantly different in person than on tape?  Do the cameras lie?  If the Jaguars didn't like his height, is that going to magically change by bringing him to camp?

Second, while I suspect Meyer probably signs off on all trades, my impression is that Meyer is focused on the starters and other key players.  I believe the third stringers and the bottom of the 90 man roster are primarily handled by Baalke and his scouts.  Baalke was with the team last year and has had plenty of access to see Scott in person.

Third, if you wait, the deal may go away.  The Eagles may trade for a cornerback with another team.  Maybe an UDFA in their camp impresses them.  If the Jaguars then cut Scott, we get absolutely nothing.  If you find it doubtful that a player is going to make the team, you should take the trade offer when you have a chance.

The bolded is where we depart philosophically. 

This is the kind of lazy evaluation by incoming regimes I hate - and it is akin to Caldwell cutting Daryl Smith when he still had 4 very productive seasons to offer, but the past season's tape showed signs of Smith declining.

I believe that if you have the rights to a player whose upside and value may not be realized viewing limited tape, you better do your damn homework on the athlete as it is available to you. And when the flesh and blood player is available for evaluation, that's the proper way to evaluate them.

(05-19-2021, 11:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 11:04 AM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ]Ok what experience do you have as a coach or player personal guy that would make me consider your position over one of the best college coaches of all time. I don't know why i am even posting a reply to your cry baby rants about UM

How about you simply consider how many years we've watched this team suck, and how many former Jags have gone on to be contributors on winning teams elsewhere while we plodded along to a losing record in the same season?  

If it doesn't make you question moves like Josh Oliver and Josiah Scott, you probably haven't been paying close enough attention.

(05-19-2021, 12:15 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ]We haven’t even made it to training camp and already UM is being written off by some of you. Give this team a freaking shot before we go full meltdown for gods sake! All the consternation over this trade where the dude likely wouldn’t make the team is embarrassing.

(05-19-2021, 07:23 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 11:23 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]How about you simply consider how many years we've watched this team suck, and how many former Jags have gone on to be contributors on winning teams elsewhere while we plodded along to a losing record in the same season?  

If it doesn't make you question moves like Josh Oliver and Josiah Scott, you probably haven't been paying close enough attention.

How is the team sucking in prior years relevant? It's relevant because it was partially a result of bad personnel decisions. My argument is that personnel decisions may currently be taking place without adequate due diligence. I for one, am sick of nad personnel decisions and am praying I'm not seeing the first signs that the new regime won't improve from what we've been subject to historically.  Even if we agree that Caldwell made stupid trades, that doesn't mean EVERY trade in the NFL is stupid. This trade wasn't made by Caldwell. I didn't call any trade stupid. I'm questioning the reasoning behind moving on from players that may still have something to offer without getting them in camp first to be certain. 

I know you weren't replying to me, but personally, I not only questioned, but disagreed with the Josh Oliver trade.  Trades are case by case.  There are big differences between the two trades:

1.  Cornerback is one of our strongest and deepest positions.  Tight end was a position with no depth and a desperate need.  

2.  At the time, most would have considered Oliver third on our depth chart at a position where teams usually keep at least three.  In other words, I would have projected him on our 53 man roster.  I did not project Scott on our 53 man roster and didn't even really consider him on the bubble.  Even with an injury to one of our other cornerbacks, I would still have projected Claybrooks and possibly others over him.

3.  We got a 6th round pick from a team likely to be drafting early for Scott (plus a player) versus a likely very late seventh rounder for Oliver.  Keep in mind that there are only seven rounds.  The difference between the pick for Oliver and every UDFA may end up only being a few players.  Oliver was traded for the garbage of garbage picks.

4.  The pick for Oliver was conditional.  We only got the pick if he made the team.  It creates a logical argument that many on here seemed unable to follow.  There's two scenarios.  Either he makes the Ravens or he doesn't.  If he doesn't, we get absolutely nothing from the trade.  If Oliver is good enough to make the Ravens, then he very likely would have been good enough to make the Jaguars.  Given the Jaguars desperate need at the position, that would have been far more valuable than a very late seventh rounder.  There was zero downside to keeping Oliver.  There's a big difference between not wanting a free raffle ticket (Oliver) versus not wanting to pay $5 for a raffle ticket (Scott).

5. Oliver played little because he was injured.  Scott didn't play because he just wasn't good enough.  This was despite playing on a really bad team that got decimated by injuries at his position and he still played minimally.  The guy just wasn't going to make a team at a position where the three best players returned, the top free agent signing was at his position, and the 33rd overall draft pick were used at his position.  Getting a sixth rounder for Scott is better than just cutting him and getting nothing.
As I've already expounded upon in the thread, this gripe wasn't about Josiah Scott's rookie tape (which is often not indicative of a player's actual career) it was about not bothering to see an athlete perform in person when you have the opportunity - but  instead  moving on from a mid round pick because he doesn't suit the desired traits of your coordinator/scheme.  I find it a lazy and inadequate form of roster evaluation. 

(05-19-2021, 06:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 06:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]First, they have tape on Scott.  Do you really think Scott will look significantly different in person than on tape?  Do the cameras lie?  If the Jaguars didn't like his height, is that going to magically change by bringing him to camp?

Second, while I suspect Meyer probably signs off on all trades, my impression is that Meyer is focused on the starters and other key players.  I believe the third stringers and the bottom of the 90 man roster are primarily handled by Baalke and his scouts.  Baalke was with the team last year and has had plenty of access to see Scott in person.

Third, if you wait, the deal may go away.  The Eagles may trade for a cornerback with another team.  Maybe an UDFA in their camp impresses them.  If the Jaguars then cut Scott, we get absolutely nothing.  If you find it doubtful that a player is going to make the team, you should take the trade offer when you have a chance.

The bolded is where we depart philosophically. 

This is the kind of lazy evaluation by incoming regimes I hate - and it is akin to Caldwell cutting Daryl Smith when he still had 4 very productive seasons to offer, but the past season's tape showed signs of Smith declining.

I believe that if you have the rights to a player whose upside and value may not be realized viewing limited tape, you better do your damn homework on the athlete as it is available to you. And when the flesh and blood player is available for evaluation, that's the proper way to evaluate them.

(05-19-2021, 09:10 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 06:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]The bolded is where we depart philosophically. 

This is the kind of lazy evaluation by incoming regimes I hate - and it is akin to Caldwell cutting Daryl Smith when he still had 4 very productive seasons to offer, but the past season's tape showed signs of Smith declining.

I believe that if you have the rights to a player whose upside and value may not be realized viewing limited tape, you better do your damn homework on the athlete as it is available to you. And when the flesh and blood player is available for evaluation, that's the proper way to evaluate them.

Limited tape?

They have college tape, tape on him from every single practice with the Jags, and all of his game tape. They have an archive of tape on him.

There is plenty of tape to make a thorough evaluation of him. If he doesn't have the skill set the team wants, what is the point in keeping him around?

(05-19-2021, 02:01 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]Historically college coaches like Urban fail. Statistically speaking he has about an 85% chance of failure.

And he's shown zero ability to adapt. He's running it just like he did in College.. and no one is keeping tabs on him - he literally has no boss. Stupid move to give someone like Urban that much power. After 7 losses Khan will get an Email with the header, "Due to Health Concerns..."

(05-19-2021, 10:10 PM)Hard_Eight Wrote: [ -> ]
Literally anything the team does.

(05-19-2021, 09:31 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 09:10 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]Limited tape?

They have college tape, tape on him from every single practice with the Jags, and all of his game tape. They have an archive of tape on him.

There is plenty of tape to make a thorough evaluation of him. If he doesn't have the skill set the team wants, what is the point in keeping him around?

Limited NFL game tape. 
I’ve made the distinctions clear in multiple posts as well as my thoughts on the player and the dangers of evaluating rookies. 
I don’t want to see any shortcuts in evaluation and this little red flag is probably nothing, but it has my radar on alert.

(05-20-2021, 03:27 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 09:31 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Limited NFL game tape. 
I’ve made the distinctions clear in multiple posts as well as my thoughts on the player and the dangers of evaluating rookies. 
I don’t want to see any shortcuts in evaluation and this little red flag is probably nothing, but it has my radar on alert.

So basically you want them to sit a better player so you don't have limited tape on him.

(05-19-2021, 07:04 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-19-2021, 06:47 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]First, they have tape on Scott.  Do you really think Scott will look significantly different in person than on tape?  Do the cameras lie?  If the Jaguars didn't like his height, is that going to magically change by bringing him to camp?

Second, while I suspect Meyer probably signs off on all trades, my impression is that Meyer is focused on the starters and other key players.  I believe the third stringers and the bottom of the 90 man roster are primarily handled by Baalke and his scouts.  Baalke was with the team last year and has had plenty of access to see Scott in person.

Third, if you wait, the deal may go away.  The Eagles may trade for a cornerback with another team.  Maybe an UDFA in their camp impresses them.  If the Jaguars then cut Scott, we get absolutely nothing.  If you find it doubtful that a player is going to make the team, you should take the trade offer when you have a chance.

Not to mention it's possible they didn't like him even coming out in college and just poor play his rookie year and getting beat out by undrafted and 7th rounders proved what they thought.  Then when the offer for a 6th for a guy likely to not make the roster was icing on the cake.  Houston has a much higher pff grade as well lol. I don't see what's not to like. Houston probably has as good of a chance to make the team as Scott did

"Jameson Houston | Jacksonville Jaguars CB | NFL and PFF stats | PFF" https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jameson-houston/25642


"Josiah Scott | Philadelphia Eagles CB | NFL and PFF stats | PFF" https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/josiah-scott/55634

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(05-19-2021, 06:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]The bolded is where we depart philosophically. 

This is the kind of lazy evaluation by incoming regimes I hate - and it is akin to Caldwell cutting Daryl Smith when he still had 4 very productive seasons to offer, but the past season's tape showed signs of Smith declining.

I believe that if you have the rights to a player whose upside and value may not be realized viewing limited tape, you better do your damn homework on the athlete as it is available to you. And when the flesh and blood player is available for evaluation, that's the proper way to evaluate them.

I don't remember Smiths play declining, and I don't think Caldwell seen that on tape.  Caldwell just wanted a younger team and admitted later on making the mistake of cutting Smith.

(05-19-2021, 04:58 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]The 4th isn't unknown though. It's Josiah Scott who barely played even when Greg Mabin, Chris Claybrooks and others played instead.

What do you suggest a team should do when they realize their pick was a bust?