(03-18-2022, 08:42 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2022, 05:51 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]We still have so many needs, maybe we should ask, what do we not need.
I would say our "not-needs" are QB, CB, DT/NT, and OT.
I hope we spend on of our 6th round picks on a K, who can get the kickoffs into the end zone. And I hope we spend the first overall pick on the best available player, which to me looks like Aiden Hutchinson. He's the BAP and he fills a need.
Other than that, assuming our first pick is Aiden Hutchinson, our needs would be, in order,
LB
WR
IOL
TE
S
RB
I think after we take Hutchinson, our most dire need will be LB.
Regarding the not-needs, I'd argue that unless we ink Cam to a longer deal, we still need to add developmental depth. Nothing about Taylor wants me to hold out hope that he re-assumes the RT next season. I think a mid-round pick could net you a guy that either serves as your next swing tackle type or someone that can take a year to sit, learn, and challenge for a starting spot next season.
This is one of those areas that should get a band aid for this season and addressed long term in 2023. I certainly don't want Robinson signed long term. Why extend a LT who is just serviceable? That is beyond asinine. He is tagged, because at the time, there were no better options. We could either trade for La'el Collins and pull the franchise tag on Robinson or let him play this season on the tag and address the LT position in the 2023 draft or free agency. That's the only 2 smart options. This OT draft class is just too mediocre to risk a high draft pick on one. Besides, we have bigger issues at DE/OLB, WR, TE, ILB and interior O-Line that need our immediate attention. I can live with Robinson and Little as our starting OT's this coming season and hopefully, we find an upgrade at Swing Tackle as well.
(03-18-2022, 10:03 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2022, 08:42 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Regarding the not-needs, I'd argue that unless we ink Cam to a longer deal, we still need to add developmental depth. Nothing about Taylor wants me to hold out hope that he re-assumes the RT next season. I think a mid-round pick could net you a guy that either serves as your next swing tackle type or someone that can take a year to sit, learn, and challenge for a starting spot next season.
This is one of those areas that should get a band aid for this season and addressed long term in 2023. I certainly don't want Robinson signed long term. Why extend a LT who is just serviceable? That is beyond asinine. He is tagged, because at the time, there were no better options. We could either trade for La'el Collins and pull the franchise tag on Robinson or let him play this season on the tag and address the LT position in the 2023 draft or free agency. That's the only 2 smart options. This OT draft class is just too mediocre to risk a high draft pick on one. Besides, we have bigger issues at DE/OLB, WR, TE, ILB and interior O-Line that need our immediate attention. I can live with Robinson and Little as our starting OT's this coming season and hopefully, we find an upgrade at Swing Tackle as well.
so in other words you agree that OT is still a need, just in a whole lot more words?
(03-18-2022, 03:50 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2022, 10:03 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]This is one of those areas that should get a band aid for this season and addressed long term in 2023. I certainly don't want Robinson signed long term. Why extend a LT who is just serviceable? That is beyond asinine. He is tagged, because at the time, there were no better options. We could either trade for La'el Collins and pull the franchise tag on Robinson or let him play this season on the tag and address the LT position in the 2023 draft or free agency. That's the only 2 smart options. This OT draft class is just too mediocre to risk a high draft pick on one. Besides, we have bigger issues at DE/OLB, WR, TE, ILB and interior O-Line that need our immediate attention. I can live with Robinson and Little as our starting OT's this coming season and hopefully, we find an upgrade at Swing Tackle as well.
so in other words you agree that OT is still a need, just in a whole lot more words?
I mean, that's basically the same stance I had on OT too. It's a 2023 need but tagging Cam fixed the immediate need. We have other needs that we need to fix in order to have a successful 2022 season. OT isn't on that list.
(03-18-2022, 03:50 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-18-2022, 10:03 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]This is one of those areas that should get a band aid for this season and addressed long term in 2023. I certainly don't want Robinson signed long term. Why extend a LT who is just serviceable? That is beyond asinine. He is tagged, because at the time, there were no better options. We could either trade for La'el Collins and pull the franchise tag on Robinson or let him play this season on the tag and address the LT position in the 2023 draft or free agency. That's the only 2 smart options. This OT draft class is just too mediocre to risk a high draft pick on one. Besides, we have bigger issues at DE/OLB, WR, TE, ILB and interior O-Line that need our immediate attention. I can live with Robinson and Little as our starting OT's this coming season and hopefully, we find an upgrade at Swing Tackle as well.
so in other words you agree that OT is still a need, just in a whole lot more words?
It's not a need this year. It will probably be our top need in 2023. Right now, I'm o.k. with Little and Robinson, unless we can sign La'el Collins. If that happens, I'm hoping we are set at both OT positions for the foreseeable future. Collins would be a HUGE upgrade from Robinson.
(03-17-2022, 09:06 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-17-2022, 08:19 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Welp. Be prepared to have the bolded argued until you're blue in the face.
As far as needs, obviously, pass rusher but that's going to be filled by Hutchinson. I would still like to add another pass rusher besides Hutch. Need an outside receiver and I 100% agree with others who have said to trade up for Olave, London or Jamo. Jamo being my favorite of the 3. Then I would say interior Oline.
Well aware of the cult of BAP warriors entrenched amongst us. It's a beautiful idea, but so are unicorns and utopia.
I could be all good with Hutch and Allen manning the pass rush duties and rotating in Smoot and hopefully that 4th rounder (Smith?) we've not really seen yet. Another jar on the shelf would be cool, but I'd like to spend picks on more barren position groups if value lines up well enough.
XWR and IOL are def big on my list and I'm not opposed to a trade up if that's what it takes for a worthy X.
I know what orthodox opinion is on taking a WR at #1. But are we sure Hutchinson is significantly better than the top 4 WRs in terms of being a football player? Why is Edge valued more than Xwr? Don't the moves in FA show that there isn't a clear cut answer to that?
So if the staff identifies a top wide receiver they covet, why not pull the trigger at #1? Or if they identify that the Lions really, really want Hutchinson and swap #1 & #33 for #2 and #32 (and some change)? Then draft the WR of your choice at #2.
Just floating it.
The thinking is its harder to find a great pass rusher as opposed to wide receivers that are usually available in more rounds of the draft.
(03-18-2022, 07:46 PM)I am Yoda Wrote: [ -> ] (03-17-2022, 09:06 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Well aware of the cult of BAP warriors entrenched amongst us. It's a beautiful idea, but so are unicorns and utopia.
I could be all good with Hutch and Allen manning the pass rush duties and rotating in Smoot and hopefully that 4th rounder (Smith?) we've not really seen yet. Another jar on the shelf would be cool, but I'd like to spend picks on more barren position groups if value lines up well enough.
XWR and IOL are def big on my list and I'm not opposed to a trade up if that's what it takes for a worthy X.
I know what orthodox opinion is on taking a WR at #1. But are we sure Hutchinson is significantly better than the top 4 WRs in terms of being a football player? Why is Edge valued more than Xwr? Don't the moves in FA show that there isn't a clear cut answer to that?
So if the staff identifies a top wide receiver they covet, why not pull the trigger at #1? Or if they identify that the Lions really, really want Hutchinson and swap #1 & #33 for #2 and #32 (and some change)? Then draft the WR of your choice at #2.
Just floating it.
I think the biggest argument is lost value. If you draw your board up, and find that your blue chip top picks are any of the 4 WR, Hutch, and say, Neal. You mock and mock and mock to simulate things and find that almost every time you can get one of those WR around 10-12, and you'd rather them than anyone else at the top of your board, the value move is to trade back a bit, even if you don't get the full value of the R1 P1 pick that some chart assigned. Slip back to around 7 or 8, get another pick to work with later in the draft or a future pick, and take your guy.
If you take Wilson at 1, you've lost some of the value in the lost pick in a potential trade, allowed a higher-rated (per the consensus) player in Hutch drop to another team, and your guy may cost a hair more due to draft pick compensation tiering (though this isn't a significant loss).
You're right, if you have a WR head and shoulders above the other guys, damn the torpedoes, take your guy and prove all the pundits and draftniks wrong. Nothing wrong with that, but you better be confident in your scouting. You don't get to make many mistakes especially that early in the darft.
(03-17-2022, 06:12 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]After these waves in FA, what do yall think are our top 5 needs?
1. WR1
2. LG
3. Edge/OLB
4. MLB
5. SS
Wildcard: DT/3-4 DE
I love how the draft matches up with our needs. I thing we can go true BPA
After the free agency dust has settled a bit more, I'd list my needs as:
Edge/OLB
XWR
ILB2
OL capable of G/C versatility to compete or back-up at RG and C
RB Depth in case our combo isn't at full health in September
Sorry but I cannot agree that depth at the least valuable position where we already have a franchise caliber and first round pick (injuries or not) is more important than getting Wingard and/or Jenkins off the field and completing our secondary chain with no weak links.
(03-28-2022, 07:28 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry but I cannot agree that depth at the least valuable position where we already have a franchise caliber and first round pick (injuries or not) is more important than getting Wingard and/or Jenkins off the field and completing our secondary chain with no weak links.
I still say RB should not be addressed in the draft. There are over 20 RB's in this draft class that I really like and there's no way all of them are gonna get drafted. There will be some very, very talented guys who are UDFA's. I expect guys like Breece Hall, Kenneth Walker, Isaiah Spiller, James Cook, Tyler Allgeier, Kyren Williams, Pierre Strong, Rachaad White, Abram Smith, Jerome Ford, Hassan Haskins, Zamir White, Brian Robinson, Kennedy Brooks and Dameon Pierce to get drafted, but I also really like Ty Chandler, Tyler Goodson, Sincere McCormick, Brian Kobach, B.J. Baylor, Jashaun Corbin, Tyrion Davis-Price, Mataeo Durant and C.J. Verdell. I just don't see much sense in drafting a RB when there will be so much talent at the position that goes undrafted.
(03-28-2022, 07:28 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry but I cannot agree that depth at the least valuable position where we already have a franchise caliber and first round pick (injuries or not) is more important than getting Wingard and/or Jenkins off the field and completing our secondary chain with no weak links.
It's a toss up for me between safety and RB insurance, need-wise.
Only one weak link in the secondary is better than it has been in some time and I don't want to be desperate for a decent back in September if the injury bug lingers.
1. Wr #1 or a dominant tight end. We do not have that go to guy on the roster.
2. Pass Rusher Josh Allen is not an Alpha. We need an Alpha pass Rusher.
3. Offensive tackle! Left or right needs stability.
4. Linebacker. Need that alpha male.
5. Kicker : Many may laugh but plenty of games come down to the kicker. We need a guy with a sold leg we can rely on.
(03-28-2022, 08:46 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2022, 07:28 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry but I cannot agree that depth at the least valuable position where we already have a franchise caliber and first round pick (injuries or not) is more important than getting Wingard and/or Jenkins off the field and completing our secondary chain with no weak links.
It's a toss up for me between safety and RB insurance, need-wise.
Only one weak link in the secondary is better than it has been in some time and I don't want to be desperate for a decent back in September if the injury bug lingers.
To be honest, I want to look better this year obviously...but I'm still focused more on 2023 as far as seriously competing goes.
I really don't want 2023 to roll around and we're looking at having to start a rookie safety. I am 100% fine with taking 2022 to see how our heavily invested RBs injuries turn out and if need be we can readress with a FA or rookie in 2023 and expect instant RB impact.
We don't need to be worring about needs right now or need in 2023, that's your typical needs drafting. FA was for need. Now just take the player who you feel will be the best and at the top of your board and the rest will play itself out.
(03-28-2022, 08:24 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2022, 07:28 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry but I cannot agree that depth at the least valuable position where we already have a franchise caliber and first round pick (injuries or not) is more important than getting Wingard and/or Jenkins off the field and completing our secondary chain with no weak links.
I still say RB should not be addressed in the draft. There are over 20 RB's in this draft class that I really like and there's no way all of them are gonna get drafted. There will be some very, very talented guys who are UDFA's. I expect guys like Breece Hall, Kenneth Walker, Isaiah Spiller, James Cook, Tyler Allgeier, Kyren Williams, Pierre Strong, Rachaad White, Abram Smith, Jerome Ford, Hassan Haskins, Zamir White, Brian Robinson, Kennedy Brooks and Dameon Pierce to get drafted, but I also really like Ty Chandler, Tyler Goodson, Sincere McCormick, Brian Kobach, B.J. Baylor, Jashaun Corbin, Tyrion Davis-Price, Mataeo Durant and C.J. Verdell. I just don't see much sense in drafting a RB when there will be so much talent at the position that goes undrafted.
when you have 12 picks, you have the luxury of not needing to be a salesman to secure the RB you like or want. I don't feel like we have to be urgent in spending a mid-range pick on a guy or anything, but we have a multitude of late picks, doesn't hurt to use one of them if there's a guy who particularly catches the team's eye.
(03-29-2022, 07:31 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]We don't need to be worring about needs right now or need in 2023, that's your typical needs drafting. FA was for need. Now just take the player who you feel will be the best and at the top of your board and the rest will play itself out.
/types post
//deletes post
not gonna bother with this carcass, it don't even look like a horse no more.
My top 5 needs this season, whether addressed in free agency, trade, waiver wire, or draft...
Edge...The QB must go down and Chaisson has proven to be not the answer.
WR (X)... Give Trevor an alpha receiver that puts fear into the secondary.
RB... Odds are at least one of Robinson or ETN won't be 100% to pre-injury form.
ILB... Not sold yet that Quarterman or Moses is the answer next to Oluokun.
K... Wright is wrong.
Honorable mention: Safety to excel next to Cisco. A guard to challenge Bartch if Taylor won't move inside. A center to challenge Shatley. Quality depth at CB.
(03-29-2022, 09:05 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2022, 08:24 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I still say RB should not be addressed in the draft. There are over 20 RB's in this draft class that I really like and there's no way all of them are gonna get drafted. There will be some very, very talented guys who are UDFA's. I expect guys like Breece Hall, Kenneth Walker, Isaiah Spiller, James Cook, Tyler Allgeier, Kyren Williams, Pierre Strong, Rachaad White, Abram Smith, Jerome Ford, Hassan Haskins, Zamir White, Brian Robinson, Kennedy Brooks and Dameon Pierce to get drafted, but I also really like Ty Chandler, Tyler Goodson, Sincere McCormick, Brian Kobach, B.J. Baylor, Jashaun Corbin, Tyrion Davis-Price, Mataeo Durant and C.J. Verdell. I just don't see much sense in drafting a RB when there will be so much talent at the position that goes undrafted.
when you have 12 picks, you have the luxury of not needing to be a salesman to secure the RB you like or want. I don't feel like we have to be urgent in spending a mid-range pick on a guy or anything, but we have a multitude of late picks, doesn't hurt to use one of them if there's a guy who particularly catches the team's eye.
(03-29-2022, 07:31 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]We don't need to be worring about needs right now or need in 2023, that's your typical needs drafting. FA was for need. Now just take the player who you feel will be the best and at the top of your board and the rest will play itself out.
/types post
//deletes post
not gonna bother with this carcass, it don't even look like a horse no more.
With me, it's more about using those picks wisely, no matter how many we have. Why use a draft pick on a RB that will likely be designated to 3rd string once Etienne and Robinson are healthy? Especially when I see many RB's who will be UDFA's and are just as good, if not better than the guys who may be selected after the 4th round. We have a ton of other areas on this team that could be addressed like O-Line, WR, TE, Safety, ILB, edge rusher and even special teams and depth at CB, that may require us to use actual draft picks to secure the best players. I just don't see RB as one of those areas. I'd designate at least 2 picks, maybe 3 to addressing WR and I want one of the better TE's and Centers from this class as well. When you add in that we will be taking an edge rusher at #1, that's 4 early picks already gone. Even though we have 12 picks, we have so many areas that we could improve, we don't have the luxury of selecting certain positions we already are good at. Even if the starters at that position are both coming off season ending injuries. That's just my opinion.
(03-28-2022, 10:13 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2022, 08:46 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's a toss up for me between safety and RB insurance, need-wise.
Only one weak link in the secondary is better than it has been in some time and I don't want to be desperate for a decent back in September if the injury bug lingers.
To be honest, I want to look better this year obviously...but I'm still focused more on 2023 as far as seriously competing goes.
I really don't want 2023 to roll around and we're looking at having to start a rookie safety. I am 100% fine with taking 2022 to see how our heavily invested RBs injuries turn out and if need be we can readress with a FA or rookie in 2023 and expect instant RB impact.
I have a different perspective on it. And it's about doing right by Trevor Lawrence after he was thrown to the wolves last year.
I'm not going to neglect the RB situation if there's a chance we aren't healthy there September due to extended recovery or set-backs. I want that running game to take pressure off of him when possible.
Luckily - there are still ways to address many positions. I'm not advocating a pick prior to the 5th round on the RB, and I'd be good with a 6th and an UDFA if the prospects have merit. I just don't want to bank on 2 major injuries to be perfectly on rehab schedule w/o setback.
Scenarios exist wherein the Jags find prospects at EDGE, WR, ILB, S, OL before looking to a late round RB.
Just comes down to how they fall and which positions Baalke and company are more willing to reach for.
Edge, 2 WR, ILB, IOL, TE. That should be our first five picks, but not necessarily in that order. Use some of the late round pick as bundles with some of these picks to improve draft position in one or two spots, then use what is left for depth at RB, CB, S, DLine and Oline.
(03-29-2022, 09:05 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2022, 08:24 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I still say RB should not be addressed in the draft. There are over 20 RB's in this draft class that I really like and there's no way all of them are gonna get drafted. There will be some very, very talented guys who are UDFA's. I expect guys like Breece Hall, Kenneth Walker, Isaiah Spiller, James Cook, Tyler Allgeier, Kyren Williams, Pierre Strong, Rachaad White, Abram Smith, Jerome Ford, Hassan Haskins, Zamir White, Brian Robinson, Kennedy Brooks and Dameon Pierce to get drafted, but I also really like Ty Chandler, Tyler Goodson, Sincere McCormick, Brian Kobach, B.J. Baylor, Jashaun Corbin, Tyrion Davis-Price, Mataeo Durant and C.J. Verdell. I just don't see much sense in drafting a RB when there will be so much talent at the position that goes undrafted.
when you have 12 picks, you have the luxury of not needing to be a salesman to secure the RB you like or want. I don't feel like we have to be urgent in spending a mid-range pick on a guy or anything, but we have a multitude of late picks, doesn't hurt to use one of them if there's a guy who particularly catches the team's eye.
(03-29-2022, 07:31 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]We don't need to be worring about needs right now or need in 2023, that's your typical needs drafting. FA was for need. Now just take the player who you feel will be the best and at the top of your board and the rest will play itself out.
/types post
//deletes post
not gonna bother with this carcass, it don't even look like a horse no more.
Hahahaha
I thought the same thing. It's not worth the argument.