Quote:Would you mind giving me a small history lesson on where you grew up, the schools you've attended, where you live now, the changes you've enacted in the community, and institutional racism you've witnessed and was told to you by your family members? I would like you to include your age as well, but you may find that objectionable.
So now he has to prove he's "black enough" to you? Insulting much?
Quote:So now he has to prove he's "black enough" to you? Insulting much?
Not at all. I'm actually trying to understand more about him by finding out more about him. There really isn't a black quotient per se in our community.
Quote:Not at all. I'm actually trying to understand more about him by finding out more about him. There really isn't a black quotient per se in our community.
That's not what it reads like...
Quote:Not at all. I'm actually trying to understand more about him by finding out more about him. There really isn't a black quotient per se in our community.
I get the impression you're looking for the 'Uncle Tom' factor in order to dismiss his argument.
Quote:That's not what it reads like...
Maybe not, but there's not a reason to lie. He has a unique viewpoint all things considered and I'd like to understand what brought him there. The only thing I thought may insult him was the age question, but I want to know that as much as anything else.
Quote:I get the impression you're looking for the 'Uncle Tom' factor in order to dismiss his argument.
Here's the thing, what if he is an uncle Tom? What if he isn't? That's why I'm asking questions so I can understand him. Ppl here dismiss arguments for things far more petty. I'm going to assume you address them as you are addressing me.
Quote:Here's the thing, what if he is an uncle Tom? What if he isn't? That's why I'm asking questions so I can understand him. Ppl here dismiss arguments for things far more petty. I'm going to assume you address them as you are addressing me.
Like I said, you're trying to make him prove he's black enough to have an actual opinion on the matter.
Quote:Here's the thing, what if he is an uncle Tom? What if he isn't? That's why I'm asking questions so I can understand him. Ppl here dismiss arguments for things far more petty. I'm going to assume you address them as you are addressing me.
Because I take his word as a man. JJ expresses himself as a highly intelligent person who is capable of clear critical thinking. I don't require to know a person's background to question the merit of their argument. Why do you?
Quote:Because I take his word as a man. JJ expresses himself as a highly intelligent person who is capable of clear critical thinking. I don't require to know a person's background to question the merit of their argument. Why do you?
I again, I'm not questioning the merit of his argument, I'm simply trying to understand how he came to his conclusions. He has expressed himself very intelligently in many of his posts, so that factored into my reasoning for asking him these questions. He is also free to feel however he feels. I don't want to change his mind or yours or bchbunnie.
Also, had it been you instead of JJ who started this thread, I would have asked you the same questions. It's not black and white how ppl come to feel how they feel. Their experiences and environment have a lot to do with it. There some things in his posts I agree and there are some that I don't agree with. I'm sure that happens to you on occasion when you read a person's post that is heavily opinionated.
Quote:I again, I'm not questioning the merit of his argument, I'm simply trying to understand how he came to his conclusions. He has expressed himself very intelligently in many of his posts, so that factored into my reasoning for asking him these questions. He is also free to feel however he feels. I don't want to change his mind or yours or bchbunnie.
Also, had it been you instead of JJ who started this thread, I would have asked you the same questions. It's not black and white how ppl come to feel how they feel. Their experiences and environment have a lot to do with it. There some things in his posts I agree and there are some that I don't agree with. I'm sure that happens to you on occasion when you read a person's post that is heavily opinionated.
That's perfectly understandable, but your background probing feeds into the modus operandi of race baiters. Any black person who doesn't buy into the argument of wholesale racism and victimization
must be currying the favor of white people. It feeds into the ideological belief that criticism of popular black culture is the realm of racists or Uncle Toms, and THAT is the major obstacle to true debate of race in this country. Does racism exist? You betcha. Does popular black culture leverage the race card to avoid accountability? Yup.
Quote:That's perfectly understandable, but your background probing feeds into the modus operandi of race baiters. Any black person who doesn't buy into the argument of wholesale racism and victimization must be currying the favor of white people. It feeds into the ideological belief that criticism of popular black culture is the realm of racists or Uncle Toms, and THAT is the major obstacle to true debate of race in this country. Does racism exist? You betcha. Does popular black culture leverage the race card to avoid accountability? Yup.
Honestly, it's leveraged both ways. There are uncle Tom's that exist. The black community needs to have more honest dialog about what goes on inside it's borders. At the same time, white ppl have let go of notion that racism is hoods and epithets and begin questioning who stands to benefit from some of the policies that are enacted and have been enacted. I try to talk to all walks of life to understand how they came to the conclusions they have about the black community. I try to see who they interact with as well. A lot ppl don't put boots on the ground but are sure to tell you what's wrong. You don't have to volunteer at local soup kitchen but you should at least have candid conversations with the ppl you have opinions about. I put an article up about one person's theory on how racism began. Over 100 ppl viewed, but only two commented. One person's comment didn't pertain to the article. How do we expect to improve race relations without researching the situation and having open dialog about it? Why would someone assume my viewpoint on race is wrong without wanting to know my experiences? Half the things written on here about black ppl are neither how they feel or something they've said. No one wants the race card brought out arbitrarily but there never seems to be an appropriate time to use it. If you view my posts you will see I try to use grammar and syntax correctly. I try not to insult. I am engaging and not combative. I try not to assume. I do these things because these are the things I've seen others use to invalidate an argument. Some ppl talk to me, others don't.
Quote:Honestly, it's leveraged both ways. There are uncle Tom's that exist. The black community needs to have more honest dialog about what goes on inside it's borders. At the same time, white ppl have let go of notion that racism is hoods and epithets and begin questioning who stands to benefit from some of the policies that are enacted and have been enacted. I try to talk to all walks of life to understand how they came to the conclusions they have about the black community. I try to see who they interact with as well. A lot ppl don't put boots on the ground but are sure to tell you what's wrong. You don't have to volunteer at local soup kitchen but you should at least have candid conversations with the ppl you have opinions about. I put an article up about one person's theory on how racism began. Over 100 ppl viewed, but only two commented. One person's comment didn't pertain to the article. How do we expect to improve race relations without researching the situation and having open dialog about it? Why would someone assume my viewpoint on race is wrong without wanting to know my experiences? Half the things written on here about black ppl are neither how they feel or something they've said. No one wants the race card brought out arbitrarily but there never seems to be an appropriate time to use it. If you view my posts you will see I try to use grammar and syntax correctly. I try not to insult. I am engaging and not combative. I try not to assume. I do these things because these are the things I've seen others use to invalidate an argument. Some ppl talk to me, others don't.
Agreed, it is a two way street. But nothing would remove the racist platform quicker than an honest dialogue about the chronic maladies affecting black America, which feed into racist stereotypes. Until the 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate and glamorization of criminality and misogyny is addressed, it will be a continuing cycle. You can't stop racism, but you can sure prove it wrong.
Quote:Honestly, it's leveraged both ways. There are uncle Tom's that exist. The black community needs to have more honest dialog about what goes on inside it's borders. At the same time, white ppl have let go of notion that racism is hoods and epithets and begin questioning who stands to benefit from some of the policies that are enacted and have been enacted. I try to talk to all walks of life to understand how they came to the conclusions they have about the black community. I try to see who they interact with as well. A lot ppl don't put boots on the ground but are sure to tell you what's wrong. You don't have to volunteer at local soup kitchen but you should at least have candid conversations with the ppl you have opinions about. I put an article up about one person's theory on how racism began. Over 100 ppl viewed, but only two commented. One person's comment didn't pertain to the article. How do we expect to improve race relations without researching the situation and having open dialog about it? Why would someone assume my viewpoint on race is wrong without wanting to know my experiences? Half the things written on here about black ppl are neither how they feel or something they've said. No one wants the race card brought out arbitrarily but there never seems to be an appropriate time to use it. If you view my posts you will see I try to use grammar and syntax correctly. I try not to insult. I am engaging and not combative. I try not to assume. I do these things because these are the things I've seen others use to invalidate an argument. Some ppl talk to me, others don't.
The hour is late and I have an early day tomorrow. Your post deserves a well thought out response that I am not able to offer due justice at this moment. True discussion without the same old rhetoric is a welcome change and what this forum was created for IMO. See you tomorrow.
Quote:Agreed, it is a two way street. But nothing would remove the racist platform quicker than an honest dialogue about the chronic maladies affecting black America, which feed into racist stereotypes. Until the 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate and glamorization of criminality and misogyny is addressed, it will be a continuing cycle. You can't stop racism, but you can sure prove it wrong.
Young criminals glam up the life, the old ones don't. As far as misogyny, you might hear that in rap songs, but it wouldn't be wise to try to apply that to your significant other if you know what I mean. The family needs to be reinstituted but that would apply for more communities than our own.
What you see as the glorification of crime, is in all actuality a glorification of success. Money=success. Those that leave the "hood" to have a career and be successful don't return to put down roots. If you are young and your parents or parent works hard but doesn't see a return on that hard work, or if they are hardly around because the work they can get has him/her out when most ppl are sleep, you can get hypnotized by the flashy lifestyle of a criminal. Especially, if you have no exposure to what the world has to offer. Drug dealers usually aren't a menace to the community, they will throw the football around with the kids if there's no one there to do it. They will feed you when you are hungry. They will also protect you if someone's bothering you. I'm not excusing their actions but merely showing you how someone could get caught up admiring that lifestyle. I'm from Arlington. When I was in middle school, he was my next door neighbor. We all knew what he did. He never offered it to us. He was a really cool dude. My mom worked for JSO, promptly called them to handle the situation. I listened to all the rap music you are sorta inferring. I never wanted to be that or live that lifestyle. I still listen to it now. Rap is not all about that either. The platform is not there because we fit the stereotype. It's there because there is money to be made and no one is going to come to aid of those forgotten in society, I'm talking of the poor who are both black and white. That statistic you cited above is most likely in the same ball park for low income whites as well. Follow the money. There are many, many jobs supported by crime that would evaporate if crime was even cut in half. How do the weapons get there? They're not manufactured in the hood. How do the drugs get there? I don't know ppl in my area who have port authority connections or vessels to traffic. The music and media that influences us is not controlled by us. Look deeper.
I wish more people thought the same way as you JJ on this matter, great post keep fighting the good fight.
Quote:So now he has to prove he's "black enough" to you? Insulting much?
He's not asking anything near that at all.
Quote:I again, I'm not questioning the merit of his argument, I'm simply trying to understand how he came to his conclusions. He has expressed himself very intelligently in many of his posts, so that factored into my reasoning for asking him these questions. He is also free to feel however he feels. I don't want to change his mind or yours or bchbunnie.
Also, had it been you instead of JJ who started this thread, I would have asked you the same questions. It's not black and white how ppl come to feel how they feel. Their experiences and environment have a lot to do with it. There some things in his posts I agree and there are some that I don't agree with. I'm sure that happens to you on occasion when you read a person's post that is heavily opinionated.
That's the problem. Black white red or yellow pure emotion leads to violence chaos hatred war death etc. Looking back at the overarching theme of my original post, the criticism that I have with the current regime or iteration of civil rights leadership/community leadership is that we focus far too much on how we FEEL. Justice is synonymous with truth is it not? Truth is objective and subject to proof and reason. So the path to Justice, has to married to truth and reason not divorced from it.
Quote:Translation - I'm a black man who feels uncomfortable with my identity so I distance myself from anything negative that is indicitivate of my race.
Plus, I have agreed to NOT become part of the solution to a problem with my community.
Quote:He's not asking anything near that at all.
Of course you wouldn't think he was asking that...
Quote:Of course you wouldn't think he was asking that...
It's interesting you didn't quote someone asking me personal questions about contributing to the Black community earlier in this thread and my response.
Quote:It's interesting you didn't quote someone asking me personal questions about contributing to the Black community earlier in this thread and my response.
You mean the question that was brought up because you accused JJ of not being part of the solution to a problem in his community? When you call out someone for not contributing, you don't think someone is going to ask what you're doing to help? That's a far cry from someone demanding your life experience history because you hold a different opinion than they do, don't you think?