Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Economies of scale...

Quote:I agree with you jagibelieve. People in the military should get decent pay, but so should everybody.


My point was that the average enlisted person needs little education or skills. A few weeks training and you are in. I'm sorry but when basically the whole population can do it, it isn't highly skilled work.


Now they should be rewarded for their courage. But in your beloved free market they aren't worth decent wages, so I guess it's lucky it's paid by the state and not private companies.


Ps I'm British, the requirements are a bit more stringent apparently but again most people could do it.

 

Again, you are very much misinformed regarding what it takes to become a member of the U.S. Armed Forces.

 

Not everyone that signs up is accepted based on several factors.  I would also argue that the "whole population" could not even pass the entrance exam (ASVAB test) let alone be able to pass basic training.

 

So tell me, what job in the military is not "skilled work"?  The soldier that learns marksmanship and all about weapons, tactics and survival?  The "cook" that learns all about the culinary profession?  What about the E-2 or E-3 that maintains computer networks and communication systems?

Quote:As a business owner myself I can assure anyone prices are reflective of our costs. That is why you have "market price" listed on some items in the menu. Those products which have huge fluctuations in price will be listed as market price to make certain they are not sold at a loss.

 

Wages are also a cost item on the ledger sheet. When labor costs go up the price we charge for products must cover that increase or the product is sold at a loss because the labor costs, purchase price, electricity, business licenses, etc. etc. are all part of the cost of selling that product.

 

Regards................the Chiefjag

 

That's been brought up, but is dismissed as being untrue.

Quote:That's been brought up, but is dismissed as being untrue.

It was not dismissed as untrue. What was brought up was that if you could charge higher prices, in most cases, the business would charge higher prices. That was what you are referring to no?

 

In my experience, the smaller the place the higher the prices. I chose to pay more to support those places. If they did raise their prices (for whatever reason) I would keep going as long as the service/product remained the same mostly due to my disdain for the walmarts of the world. 

Quote:I sincerely doubt that many business raise their prices as a result of rising cost.   That's not the way the marketplace works.  Generally speaking, businesses raise their prices because they can.   Not because they have to.   Look at it this way: if a business can raise their prices for ANY reason, why wouldn't they do so?   Wouldn't they want to maximize their profits?   They don't need to justify it by citing rising costs. 

 

If I go to a restaurant and find out that the Lasagna now costs $20 when it used to cost $12, my decision to buy is not based on anything but whether I want to pay $20 for that lasagna.   It has nothing to do with whether the restaurant owner now has to pay more for his labor.  That's his problem, not mine.  

 

It's like when people say high NFL ticket prices are a result of high player salaries.  That is not true.  NFL ticket prices are based on what people are willing to pay for tickets.  It's the same with lasagna in a restaurant.   The price of the lasagna is based  on what people are willing to pay for it. 

 

 

Quote:Okay.  Whatever.  Do you have anything to add in support of your assertion?   Just saying "Umm no." does not refute what  I said. 

 

In a free market, if a business can raise their price, they will.   Whether they can raise their price depends on what people are willing to pay for their product.   When they cite rising costs as a justification for raising their prices, they are conning you.  They are raising their price so they can make as much money as possible.   That's the way a market-based economic system works. 

 

The lasagna at the restaurant costs what it does because that is the most the restaurant can charge and still get you to buy it.   The price isn't going to go up and down because of the cost of production.   It's going to go up and down based on what you are willing to pay. 

 

 

Quote:It was not dismissed as untrue. What was brought up was that if you could charge higher prices, in most cases, the business would charge higher prices. That was what you are referring to no?

 

In my experience, the smaller the place the higher the prices. I chose to pay more to support those places. If they did raise their prices (for whatever reason) I would keep going as long as the service/product remained the same mostly due to my disdain for the walmarts of the world. 

 

I would argue that the above quotes certainly claim to refute that businesses don't raise prices due to the higher cost of doing business.  Those two quotes are just from looking at page one of this thread.

 

One of the typical liberal keywords is "profit(s)".  Making a profit is considered "obscene" to them.

 

I can understand you wanting to support the "mom and pops" that make up the vast majority of small businesses.  I actually try to do the same.  However, I do have a "mental" line in my head that I draw when choosing where I do business.  As a simple example, I had to replace some plumbing in my kitchen recently.  I can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the parts that I need for say $10, and I would have a choice as to which brand I could choose.  If I go to a local hardware store, I don't have much choice, and the cost is going to be $20.  I'm going to go with the $10 option.

 

Now why is there such a price difference?  It's all about the cost of doing business.  Part of it is the brand name of a product, but another part of it is the cost to run a business.  The small hardware store hypothetically needs to hire a couple of people to work there, and they pay minimum wage.  Their plumbing parts used to cost around $13, something that I would pay.  However, they are forced to raise their minimum wage that they pay their employees, so now they either must lay at least one employee off, or raise their prices.  The alternative is to make less profit.  It's likely that the business owner is pretty much middle class and pays himself out of the profit that he makes selling plumbing parts so if he doesn't reduce his cost by laying an employee off or raising prices, then it cuts into his income.

 

One other thing that is un-related to this thread is taxes.  That business owner not only reports his personal income (what he pays himself), he reports his profit on his personal tax return.  Thus he is in a higher tax bracket.

Quote:As a business owner myself I can assure anyone prices are reflective of our costs. That is why you have "market price" listed on some items in the menu. Those products which have huge fluctuations in price will be listed as market price to make certain they are not sold at a loss.


Wages are also a cost item on the ledger sheet. When labor costs go up the price we charge for products must cover that increase or the product is sold at a loss because the labor costs, purchase price, electricity, business licenses, etc. etc. are all part of the cost of selling that product.


Regards................the Chiefjag

Yeah but prices in restaurants don't mean much in the US due to enforced tipping. Where customer subsidise owners paying poor wages.

Quote:I would argue that the above quotes certainly claim to refute that businesses don't raise prices due to the higher cost of doing business.  Those two quotes are just from looking at page one of this thread.

 

 

That's not what he's saying. What he says is that prices are set based on demand. If there is enough profit in a particular item then the business has to weigh the loss in profit at the current price vs. the loss in sales if the price is increased. Ideally you want to maximize (number of sales) x (profit per item). Price is not just a linear relationship of cost. Of course prices will be raised (or sales of the item eliminated) if the increased cost results in a net loss
.

Quote:Yeah but prices in restaurants don't mean much in the US due to enforced tipping. Where customer subsidise owners paying poor wages.

 

Once again you show your ignorance.  Tipping is not enforced, rather it is a custom here in the U.S..  I understand that you foreigners trying to tell us how government should work don't understand tipping since it's not a part of European or other countries "norm".  In fact, I do know that it can actually be "offensive" to give or leave a tip in a lot of countries.

 

Here is where people fail to grasp things.  Owners of restaurants don't pay "poor wages", they pay what people are willing to accept for the job.  Tips are supposed to be reported on an income tax return.  How many people that work in an industry that relies on tips accurately reports their true earnings on their tax forms?  My guess is it's not many.  Tips are pretty much "un-taxed wages" earned by many in this country.

 

Again, I'll get off topic here, but that's why so many advocate a "consumption tax" rather than taxing "income".  A waiter/waitress can report their income at say $15,000.00 when they actually earned another $15,000.00 in tips.

Oh come on you are forced to tip, how often don't you tip and what service do you receive? It Is culturally enforced.


Exactly, if people were paid properly so the customers didn't have to give the waiting staff extra money to do their job then the tax man would collect his due.

Quote:Oh come on you are forced to tip, how often don't you tip and what service do you receive? It Is culturally enforced.


Exactly, if people were paid properly so the customers didn't have to give the waiting staff extra money to do their job then the tax man would collect his due.

It's most certainly not culturally enforced.  Many people don't tip.  (It's certainly NOT un-taxed btw)  Many people don't tip, because they don't see why they should.  Personally I feel if you can't afford a tip, or don't tip, you shouldn't go out to a restaurant where people serve you your food.  But there are a lot of people who don't tip.  If you're not a regular customer, you probably get good service unless you tell the waiter or waitress ahead of time you don't tip.  

Of course it is, there's a reason why everyone would rather serve a table of Americans than Australians. Because the Americans will always tip not realising that wait staff here are on 20 dollars an hour. Aussies rarely tip at all as there is no need to subsidise wage and the staff don't expect it.

Quote:I would argue that the above quotes certainly claim to refute that businesses don't raise prices due to the higher cost of doing business. Those two quotes are just from looking at page one of this thread.


One of the typical liberal keywords is "profit(s)". Making a profit is considered "obscene" to them.


I can understand you wanting to support the "mom and pops" that make up the vast majority of small businesses. I actually try to do the same. However, I do have a "mental" line in my head that I draw when choosing where I do business. As a simple example, I had to replace some plumbing in my kitchen recently. I can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the parts that I need for say $10, and I would have a choice as to which brand I could choose. If I go to a local hardware store, I don't have much choice, and the cost is going to be $20. I'm going to go with the $10 option.


Now why is there such a price difference? It's all about the cost of doing business. Part of it is the brand name of a product, but another part of it is the cost to run a business. The small hardware store hypothetically needs to hire a couple of people to work there, and they pay minimum wage. Their plumbing parts used to cost around $13, something that I would pay. However, they are forced to raise their minimum wage that they pay their employees, so now they either must lay at least one employee off, or raise their prices. The alternative is to make less profit. It's likely that the business owner is pretty much middle class and pays himself out of the profit that he makes selling plumbing parts so if he doesn't reduce his cost by laying an employee off or raising prices, then it cuts into his income.


One other thing that is un-related to this thread is taxes. That business owner not only reports his personal income (what he pays himself), he reports his profit on his personal tax return. Thus he is in a higher tax bracket.

I have no issue with profits. They certainly are not obscene to me. Why else would I pay more for local goods and services? They only succeed if they .are profits. The problem is with obscene profits where employers don't make a living wage. Your walmarts etc. Of when they use those opportunities to destroy competition. I also have problem with obscene profits in the case of wall street. Make billions while tanking the economy and getting off Scott free. Or when obscene profits are used to buy elections and pay for policy corruption.


Profits and profitable business most people have no problem with. Lots of liberals are wealthy. It's over generalising and simplifying what liberals perceive as the problem.

Sometimes the small business treats their employees worse. I spent 8 years running a mom and pop garage in the 3 months I've worked for a big chain company running one of their service departments I've seen a huge difference. They pay me better, give me vacation time, benefits, and better equipment to use. The small business guy wasn't hurting either he owned two million dollar shops had three houses paid for across two different countries he was just greedy. When we asked about insurance he told us he'd be willing to pay us Half our salaries under the table so we could get the omabacare, that's when I left.

Quote:It's most certainly not culturally enforced. Many people don't tip. (It's certainly NOT un-taxed btw) Many people don't tip, because they don't see why they should. Personally I feel if you can't afford a tip, or don't tip, you shouldn't go out to a restaurant where people serve you your food. But there are a lot of people who don't tip. If you're not a regular customer, you probably get good service unless you tell the waiter or waitress ahead of time you don't tip.

Dude, you are so off on this one... just because in your mind it is one way, does not validate the fact that in our society it is expected that you tip at a sit down restaurant...

Quote:Yeah but prices in restaurants don't mean much in the US due to enforced tipping. Where customer subsidise owners paying poor wages.

 

Lol, you cant be that dense.  The price is the price and the tip is typically 10-20% depending on who is doing the tipping.

 

The price of the food is the main factor in everything.

 

I'd also be willing to bet that many waiters/bartenders make much more money based on tipping than they would if the owners simply decided to pay a salary.  I made much more off tips than what I would have been paid if it were salary.

Quote:Of course it is, there's a reason why everyone would rather serve a table of Americans than Australians. Because the Americans will always tip not realising that wait staff here are on 20 dollars an hour. Aussies rarely tip at all as there is no need to subsidise wage and the staff don't expect it.

 

That's not true.  I made sure to tell my wife not to tip when she went there.

Quote:Reducing your luxurious lifestyle to one that you can actually afford without debt. That is what Americans cannot seem to accomplish. But we've built our entire economy on debt, so it's not really a surprise.

It's everything we are taught. What would you expect. We are taught to go to school and be in debt. Get a mortgage and be in debt. Get a credit card to get "good" credit to get a mortgage to be in debt. Then on top of that the average American family has to live near perfect to save. Yes, that sounds like a recipe for success.

Quote:It's not my concept. I think everyone should get paid a decent wage if they are working.


But In free markets you won't be paid well if there's millions with the ability/ willingness to do your job

Yes. And it goes back to either becoming better as a society or accept that we will eventually become a world were the super rich have full control over the people.

Quote:Lol, you cant be that dense. The price is the price and the tip is typically 10-20% depending on who is doing the tipping.


The price of the food is the main factor in everything.


I'd also be willing to bet that many waiters/bartenders make much more money based on tipping than they would if the owners simply decided to pay a salary. I made much more off tips than what I would have been paid if it were salary.

You seem to be missing the point. The customers are paying the wages of the staff with tipping. You even acknowledge everything is at least 10-20% more than stated.


You may not mind in a busy shift, but if you work quiet shifts the owner is keeping afloat by not paying his staff properly.

Quote:You seem to be missing the point. The customers are paying the wages of the staff with tipping. You even acknowledge everything is at least 10-20% more than stated.


You may not mind in a busy shift, but if you work quiet shifts the owner is keeping afloat by not paying his staff properly.

So what you're finally getting to is that the owner can't stay in business if he had to pay the labour more than they're worth. Glad we finally agree.