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Is $15 considered a lot over there? Hardly a large amount of money...Not sure why you want people on less? Be interested to see the wages of the people who want the poor people to make less

Quote:Is $15 considered a lot over there? Hardly a large amount of money...Not sure why you want people on less? Be interested to see the wages of the people who want the poor people to make less

Wages and cost of living vary based on the state here. In Florida $15 an hour is close to the starting wage for skilled labor with a few years experience. Often construction workers with a specific skill make $15 an hour. Entry level mechanics not on flat rate make $12-$13 an hour until they have enough experience to make more on flat rate. I know in Flagler county the largest factory manufacture Sea Ray was maxing wages out at a little over $15 an hour generally they'd start around $10 an hour. $15 an hour isn't rich by any means but it's a wage paid to workers that have developed some kind of skill, raising that minimum wage to $15 is robbing all of them of their additional income. All the sudden a skilled worker making $7 an hour more then a cashier, would be making the same as a cashier.

Construction laborers in my Area make about $12-$15 where Brick layers get about $22-$25

Quote:All the sudden a skilled worker making $7 an hour more then a cashier, would be making the same as a cashier.

Right up until the skilled workers, especially the unionized ones, demand an equivalent raise in their own pay. Now you've got skilled workers making as much as mid-level managers, who would then want their own pay increased. As that labor cost increases across the board, prices go up to match. Small businesses close their doors because they can no longer compete on price. Cue the unsustainable inflation and inevitable recession that follow, and we've basically taken a dump on our own economy.

 

Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. Minimum wage is for high schoolers who need a summer job, or college kids who need something to make a little pizza money on the side while building skills and developing references. If you're 30 years old, have been in the workforce for 12+ years and are still making minimum wage, you're doing it wrong. It's not society's fault. It's yours.

I'm sure many of you have seen this, but do we not all agree minimum wage isn't close to inflation? That the dollar does not go nearly as far as it use to compared to cost and median income? That the rich are certainly getting much richer? We have a big problem folks. And the biggest down fall of capitalism is greed. Maybe socialist views and or alternatives can work hand and hand with capitalist economy to protect the middle class. Everyones argument about finding a better job or working harder still does not solve the problem of income disparity gap. The amount of profits for big corporations far exceeds what it used to be and the profits aren't being seen by the very workers who make it possible.


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2680639

Quote:I'm sure many of you have seen this, but do we not all agree minimum wage isn't close to inflation? That the dollar does not go nearly as far as it use to compared to cost and median income? That the rich are certainly getting much richer? We have a big problem folks. And the biggest down fall of capitalism is greed. Maybe socialist views and or alternatives can work hand and hand with capitalist economy to protect the middle class. Everyones argument about finding a better job or working harder still does not solve the problem of income disparity gap. The amount of profits for big corporations far exceeds what it used to be and the profits aren't being seen by the very workers who make it possible.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2680639

A lot of people don't see wealth disparity as a bad thing.  They think it's better that some people have most of the money, while everyone else doesn't.  Everyone who doesn't just needs to 'work harder'

Quote:You're losing me here. I'm right there with you that the process of getting onto unemployment or welfare should be much harder, and the process of staying on welfare harder yet, but it's hardly fair to tell someone that they can't have their unemployment check this week because they didn't sell the Xbox that their kids love so much. I could get a used Xbox One in good condition off of Craigslist for $150. That's not going to go very far, and I'd argue that you'd actually be doing more harm than good by taking away the kids' favorite toy. Same goes for TVs. Does someone on unemployment need a 55" flat screen? No, but they'd be lucky to get $100 for it at a pawn shop, and not a whole lot more on Craigslist.

 

But why stop there? What about their smartphone that they're using to search for work? Those can fetch a pretty decent price, especially if they're newer iPhone or Galaxy models. What about the second car that the wife uses to take the kids to school? Surely you don't need two cars now that one family member is unemployed, right? Dogs and cats are hardly necessities, and if you've ever taken one to the vet or bought it halfway-decent food, you know how expensive they are. Should people be forced to sell or give away their pets to qualify for welfare or unemployment? I'll tell you this right now; I'd sooner spend my last penny on my legal defense after I deal with anyone who tries to take my dogs than give them away.

 

Point being, I don't think it's even remotely close to fair to say that someone on unemployment or welfare should be required, or even expected to sell off what they owned before landing there. If someone is using welfare or unemployment dollars to go out and buy new phones, consoles, TVs or computers, then I'd consider that to be misuse of funds bordering on fraud, and that should be a reason to disqualify someone from receiving government assistance. I'm actually not entirely opposed to people on welfare being required to submit receipts, bank statements and a simple reconciliation form every month that proves that they're spending their welfare money on food, shelter and utilities, not cell phones, TVs and manicures. I don't think it's wrong to ask someone who's been living on the government's dime for an extended period of time to forfeit privacy in exchange for receiving further assistance. Asking someone to sell off items they'd earned with their own money as a condition of receiving government money, though, crosses a few lines for me.

 

Perhaps I was too harsh with my comments, but I was trying to get a point across.  For one, people are certainly not "starving" in this country.  My point is all about priorities and how so many priorities seem to be focused on "wants" rather than "needs".

 

Should cell phone service, cable/satellite service and internet access be a "right"?  I don't think so.  Not when there are alternatives that are free and/or less expensive and available to anyone.

 

Is the problem of poverty in our society the fault of "corporations" and "CEO's"?  Nope.

 

The problem of poverty is because our culture demands to be "with the times".

Quote:Right up until the skilled workers, especially the unionized ones, demand an equivalent raise in their own pay. Now you've got skilled workers making as much as mid-level managers, who would then want their own pay increased. As that labor cost increases across the board, prices go up to match. Small businesses close their doors because they can no longer compete on price. Cue the unsustainable inflation and inevitable recession that follow, and we've basically taken a dump on our own economy.

 

Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. Minimum wage is for high schoolers who need a summer job, or college kids who need something to make a little pizza money on the side while building skills and developing references. If you're 30 years old, have been in the workforce for 12+ years and are still making minimum wage, you're doing it wrong. It's not society's fault. It's yours.

 

Now here is something that we most certainly agree on, especially the parts in bold.  That's part of the point that I was trying to get across yesterday.

 

Yet, those on the far left blame the "evil corporations" and "CEO's".  They blame the "evil rich" for not "paying their fair share".

Quote:A lot of people don't see wealth disparity as a bad thing.  They think it's better that some people have most of the money, while everyone else doesn't.  Everyone who doesn't just needs to 'work harder'

 

It is odd so many middle class people are the mouth pieces for big corporations.  It is an amazing thing to see how the disappearing middle class is actually arguing against themselves.

 

I'm very much about working hard, making your own way, etc...  And my argument isn't even about those who people think are "lazy".  I'm talking about the working American who are getting screwed in this country by capitalism as it is now.  The corporations are squeezing every dollar they can out of their workers for big profits.  American wages aren't keeping up with inflation and corporations profit margins are growing, but the middle class is not.  Republican, democrat, independent, whoever you are.  If you are middle class that should be something that makes you angry.

Quote:I'm sure many of you have seen this, but do we not all agree minimum wage isn't close to inflation? That the dollar does not go nearly as far as it use to compared to cost and median income? That the rich are certainly getting much richer? We have a big problem folks. And the biggest down fall of capitalism is greed. Maybe socialist views and or alternatives can work hand and hand with capitalist economy to protect the middle class. Everyones argument about finding a better job or working harder still does not solve the problem of income disparity gap. The amount of profits for big corporations far exceeds what it used to be and the profits aren't being seen by the very workers who make it possible.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2680639

 

Forcing someone else to give up part of their earnings is the epitome of greed.

Quote:Now here is something that we most certainly agree on, especially the parts in bold.  That's part of the point that I was trying to get across yesterday.

 

Yet, those on the far left blame the "evil corporations" and "CEO's".  They blame the "evil rich" for not "paying their fair share".

 

Man, does each party send everyone out the talking points?  It isn't about blame.  It is looking at our current reality.  The super rich are becoming more super rich and they are squeezing more and more money out of the middle class.  That is the reality of it.  The stats are there to back it up.  You can label it whichever way you want, but capitalism right now is working against the majority. 

Quote:Forcing someone else to give up part of their earnings is the epitome of greed.

 

Yes, again, these seem to be talking points rehashed over and over again.  Each side has theirs.  Lets try to move past that.

 

I guess taxes in general are greed?  So you are for not taxing at all?  

Quote:Yes, again, these seem to be talking points rehashed over and over again. Each side has theirs. Lets try to move past that.


I guess taxes in general are greed? So you are for not taxing at all?

Tax consumption, not income.

Quote:Tax consumption, not income.

 

^What he said.

Quote:Yes, again, these seem to be talking points rehashed over and over again.  Each side has theirs.  Lets try to move past that.

 

 

And babbling on and on about the rich getting richer is not a talking point?

Here are some main issues we have in this country.  You can of course have a differing view point on how to solve it, but in the current system, it is getting worse.

 

The cost of education is sky rocketing and we, as a country, don't see anything wrong with people going into debt for long periods of time just to get a job to become productive citizens.  Are we not better than this as a country?  Why is education outpacing inflation?  Why do we discourage education in this country and why are we toward the bottom in academics when compared to other top countries?  This isn't disputed, these are the facts.  

 

Health care is insane.  Compare the cost to do certain procedures in this country with others.  Health care as it was before Obamacare was horrendous and I don't think Obamacare was a good solution.  Middle class people are faced with mountains of debt and stress because of medical costs.  This is a product of the system.  It isn't greedy to say we should not pay what we pay for Health Care in this country.  Capitalism again is part of the problem. 

 

Cost of living is rising and way ahead of where it was in comparison to wages 30, 40, 50 years ago.  We as a country are doing worse, not better.  Minimum wage isn't even close to keeping up with inflation and it is even worse when you factor in the reduced cost for companies to produce goods.  These again are the facts.

 

Top .1% worth as much as bottom 90% - http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014...-bottom-90.  The top 1% are predicted to control over half the worlds wealth by 2016.  Wake up people!  Are we really okay with this?  Is our argument as middle class Americans going to be "it's greddy to force someone to give up their earnings".  We are being taken advantage of as a country and on a global scale.  And the very people being taken advantage of are the ones championing the cause.  

 

Campaigns and politicians are being bought.  It now cost a billion dollars to run for President.  Do we think those that are donating aren't doing so (big donors) without getting something in return?  

 

Let go of your political affiliation.  Look at the reality of the situation we, the majority of Americans, are facing.  And "they" are just laughing all the way to the bank as we squibble and fight amongst ourselves. 

Quote:Here are some main issues we have in this country.  You can of course have a differing view point on how to solve it, but in the current system, it is getting worse.

 

The cost of education is sky rocketing and we, as a country, don't see anything wrong with people going into debt for long periods of time just to get a job to become productive citizens.  Are we not better than this as a country?  Why is education outpacing inflation?  Why do we discourage education in this country and why are we toward the bottom in academics when compared to other top countries?  This isn't disputed, these are the facts.  

 

The cost of (I assume you are talking about higher) education is skyrocketing because the Federal government is throwing other people's money into the mix. The number of university employees has quadrupled since 1960, but most of those are administrators. The money is not going to hire professors, it's to hire diversity coordinators and build fancy new administration buildings. Meanwhile, graduate students are working as 'tutors' to lecture halls full of undergrads.


 

Students who don't have a clue about debt and probably are not fit for higher education see no problem to taking out loans. After all, it doesn't cost anything right now. Hard to blame them since the US government takes the same viewpoint. Banks have no problem writing the loans since the Feds guarantee everything.


 

Health care is insane.  Compare the cost to do certain procedures in this country with others.  Health care as it was before Obamacare was horrendous and I don't think Obamacare was a good solution.  Middle class people are faced with mountains of debt and stress because of medical costs.  This is a product of the system.  It isn't greedy to say we should not pay what we pay for Health Care in this country.  Capitalism again is part of the problem. 

 

Obamacare made it worse rather quickly, but you are right that it was a problem before that. There is NO capitalism in health care, and there wasn't before Obamacare. 25 million illegals using emergency rooms for free health care (forced by government mandate) is not helping either.


 

Cost of living is rising and way ahead of where it was in comparison to wages 30, 40, 50 years ago.  We as a country are doing worse, not better.  Minimum wage isn't even close to keeping up with inflation and it is even worse when you factor in the reduced cost for companies to produce goods.  These again are the facts.

 

Agree. Jobs being shipped overseas due to labor costs and onerous regulations is part of that problem. Automation is a factor too. Minimum wage is for high school kids, not adults, but it does add to the inflation. I'd also say the the Federal Government flat out lies (on the low side) about the inflation rate.


 

Top .1% worth as much as bottom 90% - http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014...-bottom-90.  The top 1% are predicted to control over half the worlds wealth by 2016.  Wake up people!  Are we really okay with this?  Is our argument as middle class Americans going to be "it's greddy to force someone to give up their earnings".  We are being taken advantage of as a country and on a global scale.  And the very people being taken advantage of are the ones championing the cause. 

 

I doubt that those number are true, the Guardian has no problem with lying. In any case, what the top 1% have is not a concern, so yes, what you express is pure greed and envy. What matters is what the rest of us have. Do you really think we'd be better off if everyone had half as much? That certainly would cut the disparity. I'm reminded of the socialist who was given one wish, with the result that every one else would get twice as much. He requested 'strike me blind in one eye.'

 

Campaigns and politicians are being bought.  It now cost a billion dollars to run for President.  Do we think those that are donating aren't doing so (big donors) without getting something in return?  

 

This is another result of the government being so powerful that it's worth buying. Unless that changes, this will never change. There are always ways around any law, and our rulers are not subject to the law anyway.


 

Let go of your political affiliation.  Look at the reality of the situation we, the majority of Americans, are facing.  And "they" are just laughing all the way to the bank as we squibble and fight amongst ourselves. 

 

Let go of yours. Both parties are feeding tax dollars to their wealthy donors. It's just a difference of who's your crony. In the case of some like Goldman Sachs they are cronies of both parties.


 

Quote: 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jtmoney" data-cid="511088" data-time="1438474352">
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The cost of (I assume you are talking about higher) education is skyrocketing because the Federal government is throwing other people's money into the mix. The number of university employees has quadrupled since 1960, but most of those are administrators. The money is not going to hire professors, it's to hire diversity coordinators and build fancy new administration buildings. Meanwhile, graduate students are working as 'tutors' to lecture halls full of undergrads.


 

Students who don't have a clue about debt and probably are not fit for higher education see no problem to taking out loans. After all, it doesn't cost anything right now. Hard to blame them since the US government takes the same viewpoint. Banks have no problem writing the loans since the Feds guarantee everything.


 

<b>Most students don't have a clue about debt unless they have parents who are teaching them about it.  They aren't getting the education, for the most part, in school.  I know I didn't.  But yes, I was referring to higher education in my example.  I think it was an easier debate to tackle than mandatory education.  That is a whole other animal.  My point being is we should not put our future in huge debt just to get an education.  All it does is set us back.  It, as I mentioned earlier, also discourages people from getting an education.  Per debt.org the average student is expected to carry $33,000 debt.  On average.  This of course does not factor in the actual cost with interest.  We are failing our youth and it should be one of the most important issues facing our country.  Not all candidates see it that way.</b>


 

Obamacare made it worse rather quickly, but you are right that it was a problem before that. There is NO capitalism in health care, and there wasn't before Obamacare. 25 million illegals using emergency rooms for free health care (forced by government mandate) is not helping either.


 

<b>Of course there is capitalism.  Are hospitals not profiting?  Our pharmaceutical companies not making money hand over fist.  I have a friend who is in pharmaceutical and the profit margins are outrageous.  My wife is a nurse and they charge insane amount of money for an ibuprofen.  Greed and corruption is happening.</b>


 

Agree. Jobs being shipped overseas due to labor costs and onerous regulations is part of that problem. Automation is a factor too. Minimum wage is for high school kids, not adults, but it does add to the inflation. I'd also say the the Federal Government flat out lies (on the low side) about the inflation rate.


 

Labor costs?  Corporations are paying much less in taxes and much less for their employees now when you factor in inflation and cost of goods than maybe ever before.  How does it add to inflation?  It is way behind inflation.  Cost of living, food, etc... has sky rocketed, but the median income is stagnate.  Someone is making money, but it isn't the middle class.


 

I doubt that those number are true, the Guardian has no problem with lying. In any case, what the top 1% have is not a concern, so yes, what you express is pure greed and envy. What matters is what the rest of us have. Do you really think we'd be better off if everyone had half as much? That certainly would cut the disparity. I'm reminded of the socialist who was given one wish, with the result that every one else would get twice as much. He requested 'strike me blind in one eye.'

 

Understand, what I'm talking about is a common since approach at protecting the middle class.  Right now, with the way campaigns are run, the wealthiest control this country.  They sure aren't voting against themselves.  The middle class is getting destroyed and obviously the free market is not working.  Yes, middle class needs protection from greed.  


 

This is another result of the government being so powerful that it's worth buying. Unless that changes, this will never change. There are always ways around any law, and our rulers are not subject to the law anyway.


 

Agreed.  


 

Let go of yours. Both parties are feeding tax dollars to their wealthy donors. It's just a difference of who's your crony. In the case of some like Goldman Sachs they are cronies of both parties.


 

I agree with the statement about both parties.  I'm currently registered as a republican though I consider myself an independent.  I'm concerned with the income gap and inequality.  Again, not talking about those wanting government assistance and don't want to help themselves.  Talking about hard working Americans trying to better their lives and their future families.  The odds are stacked against the middle class and the house ALWAYS wins.

 

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</blockquote>

 People don't know how to handle money.   We don't teach it in the schools.   Personal finance should be taught in high school.    I see lots of middle-class people living paycheck to paycheck just wasting money left and right, neglecting their own safety net.   For a country that supposedly has a "shrinking middle class" we sure have a lot of people who waste their money at Starbucks.   We sure have a lot of people who drive nice cars.  It's a lot more than 1% of the population. 

 

There's no excuse for borrowing money to buy an expensive car.   I see commercials for companies like BMW which tout their financing options.   No one has any business buying a BMW if they have to finance it.   If you're borrowing money to buy a BMW or a Mercedes, that is a stupid choice. 

 

So many of these struggling middle class people are struggling because of their own personal choices.   I guarantee you, half of the people in this country have enough income that they could get rich if they had the discipline.   It just takes time and discipline. 

 

I have a lot of sympathy for truly poor people, and I think we should help them a lot more than we do.   But I have a lot less sympathy for the mass of people who have good jobs and cannot get ahead because they make stupid choices and don't know how to handle money. 

Quote: People don't know how to handle money. We don't teach it in the schools. Personal finance should be taught in high school. I see lots of middle-class people living paycheck to paycheck just wasting money left and right, neglecting their own safety net. For a country that supposedly has a "shrinking middle class" we sure have a lot of people who waste their money at Starbucks. We sure have a lot of people who drive nice cars. It's a lot more than 1% of the population.


There's no excuse for borrowing money to buy an expensive car. I see commercials for companies like BMW which tout their financing options. No one has any business buying a BMW if they have to finance it. If you're borrowing money to buy a BMW or a Mercedes, that is a stupid choice.


So many of these struggling middle class people are struggling because of their own personal choices. I guarantee you, half of the people in this country have enough income that they could get rich if they had the discipline. It just takes time and discipline.


I have a lot of sympathy for truly poor people, and I think we should help them a lot more than we do. But I have a lot less sympathy for the mass of people who have good jobs and cannot get ahead because they make stupid choices and don't know how to handle money.

At my prior job, I was "team champion" for an organization called Junior Acheivement. They taught kids in school financial literacy skills. I would have thirty year old clients who couldn't fill out a check, let alone understand the concept of funds clearings before they can spend it. The tax refund checks from H&R, Liberty, etc were the worse because they were large dollar amounts and instead of putting it in savings, they were getting straight cash and spending it on goods that weren't exactly necessary. I don't mean a used car, I mean electronics and what not. Not to to mention many people would get upset when I needed two forms of ID, and when they didn't have it, I couldn't cash it due to company policy. Many need to learn how to save and use tools available wisely. It's unfortunate, but the reality