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Full Version: So, this guy walks into a church, in Charleston
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Quote:<a class="bbc_url" href='https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america'>https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america</a>


Couldn't agree more^^^
That article is so far off its not even funny


I agree some people rail against science sometimes with little evidence. But he's a linking an issue from one side of the spectrum with something completely opposite.
Quote:Bingo.

 

Let me throw some crazy idea out there.  Should we not look at the laws of other countries and compare it with their gun related murders and come to a conclusion on how those laws shape gun related murders?  Not theories, but look at these laws and their impact on gun related murders.  They are there for us all to see.
So why screw over (potential) law abiding gun owners buy passing such laws? I want the ability to be able to defend myself if someone threatens me. My husband may be able to overcome someone by force, but I cannot. Also, I am alone overnight when my husband is on night shift, which is every other month. Should I not have the ability to defend myself when he's not here?

 

There is no easy answer to the question of how to fix this problem this country has, but taking guns from people is not the answer. Most of us are law abiding citizens.

 

This guy didn't even buy the gun. His father did, hopefully not knowing what his son's intentions were. And there was at least one person who knew of his plans for this church and a college but said nothing to no one. IMO he's just as culpable as the shooter. 
Again Australia answers most of this...
Quote:Again Australia answers most of this...


I'll see your Australia and raise you a Switzerland
Quote:Again Australia answers most of this...
Enlighten me.
Quote:We have a gun violence problem in the US. 
 

We have a mental illness problem. Guns don't shoot themselves, and they don't brainwash those that have them into committing murders.

 

Quote:Here's the easy fix:


You want a gun? Fine.


Go to a registered dealer. Get your background check. Come back three days later, buy your gun registered to your name. You can't sell or trade it. You get fined if you 'lose it' or don't report it stolen. Tired of it? Sell it back to a registered re-distributer. This way the state can track where all guns are and hold owners liable.
 

So, in other words, you don't actually have a solution?

 

Registered dealers? Who allows it? Are there a certain number of "registered" dealers? Does the government have the option of limiting the number of dealers and thus the number of people that have guns? 

 

Guns registered to an owner? While you obviously don't believe it to be possible, I don't want the government to know who has guns because I don't trust them to allow me to keep it. Should they choose to, they'll be able to seize these weapons. It's happened in other countries throughout history. 

 

You get fined for losing it? What are you implying? How would the government know that it's lost? Are they going to check on me and my weapons... just to make sure? 

 

Almost everyone that has had a weapon stolen will report it as such. There's literally no benefit of not doing it.

 

If anything, your suggestions pose more problems than it resolves. You assuming it fixes something, but you don't explain how it would. The only thing it'll do is limit the number of gun owners. Since nearly all gun crimes are committed by criminals with (already) unlawful possession of the gun, they'd continued to carry them and victimizing innocents. Before you claim that they'll be tracked and less likely to fall into their hands, all one would have to do is report it stolen. The person buying from the unregistered seller would already be committing a crime, and it wouldn't change the outcome. The seller only needs to claim that it was stolen; the government wouldn't be able to prove otherwise.
Quote:I'll see your Australia and raise you a Switzerland
Ok are you all happy to do Military Service to go with the Swiss gun laws? 
Quote:So why screw over (potential) law abiding gun owners buy passing such laws? I want the ability to be able to defend myself if someone threatens me. My husband may be able to overcome someone by force, but I cannot. Also, I am alone overnight when my husband is on night shift, which is every other month. Should I not have the ability to defend myself when he's not here?

 

There is no easy answer to the question of how to fix this problem this country has, but taking guns from people is not the answer. Most of us are law abiding citizens.

 

This guy didn't even buy the gun. His father did, hopefully not knowing what his son's intentions were. And there was at least one person who knew of his plans for this church and a college but said nothing to no one. IMO he's just as culpable as the shooter. 
 

I'm not advocating a ban on guns.  And gun advocates seem to be very sensitive to this.  I completely understand that getting the government involved makes people nervous.  Once you give rights away, you normally don't get them back.  And again, I'm providing stats on the bigger problem we face here in the US and not just on this one incident.  Stricter gun laws still may not have prevented this, but they would probably, over the course of time, prevent more gun deaths.  The proof is in the numbers.  Other countries have shown that.  

 

What I am saying is we should be open to a discussion, without taking sides, and confront the issue here in the US.  I'm not trying to win an argument here.  I'm simply stating that gun related deaths in the US are really high compared to other civilized countries and it is probably a reasonable approach to see what other countries are doing.  Look at their laws and possibly compare them to other countries with similar laws.  Maybe there is a common theme that is working law wise in several countries.  

 

I also would like to say that I'm not a believer that saving one life is worth changing a law.  I think this is a terrible argument.  If we approached everything like that than the US economy would not function.  While there are a lot of gun deaths, guns also provide for families financially.  They create jobs.  They give enjoyment to many.  There will be a positive and negative impact with every law.  It just seems we are head and shoulders above every civilized nation in gun related deaths and it is a problem from the top (our own government, police, distrust, etc...) to the bottom (gangs, poor neighborhoods, drug trade, mass shootings).  There is no law that will solve all of these problems and I'm not naive enough to think there is.  But should something as powerful as a gun (and I respect the power as I've gone to a gun range a few times) be so easy to get?  I mean we have to at least go through a test and class to get our driver's license.  While driving cars is dangerous, the intent is to get from point A to point B.  The purpose of a gun is to kill whether in self defense, hunting or other.  Here are two articles that stuck out.  We aren't doing enough and we can do better.

 

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-de...-first-gun - But Americans are also more in love with the hardware than in training, laws, or safety. Too many people buying a gun for self defense, make the purchase, take the gun home, put it in a drawer, and never touch it again until their life is on the line.

<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Not only is this a bad idea from a self defense point of view, it also increases the odds that in a moment of high stress, you'll make a mistake and put yourself in legal peril (main talking point I took away from this article).

<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">http://www.today.com/id/46316454/ns/toda...YYb2_lVikp - In fact, 34 people are murdered every day in gun violence, with many of the weapons traced back to private sales. Jitka Vesel, for example, was killed by a stalker – a Canadian man who crossed into the U.S., bought a gun online in Seattle, then shot her 11 times as she got in her car. No legitimate gun store would have sold this man a gun, because he’s not a U.S. citizen. He wouldn't have passed a background check, yet he was easily able to buy a gun online.

<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"> 

<p style="font-size:1.5em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Gun Advocates, are we really doing enough to protect our citizens?  We have a culture and gun problem within our own police force.  Culturally (and I say this knowing most cops and citizens are responsible and care about human life) we, not as a whole, but as a higher percentage minority than other countries, don't value life enough.  When you kill someone, you don't just take that persons life, but you effect everyone around them for their entire lives and some never recover becoming a shell of their former self.  I believe in gun rights, but I also believe we can do better.  We should always be striving as a society to be better than those who came before us.  To learn from mistakes of our own doing and to learn from mistakes of the generation before us.  Otherwise, what is the point?  Giving up and saying there is nothing we can do basically means we have stopped progressing.  Progress in my opinion is our destiny as a civilization.  Otherwise we will be no more.  

Quote:Why must rights be rescinded? That's the typical overreaction to any notion of increased gun control. Restriction is not necessarily rescinding rights.

 

You cannot take a knife on a commercial airplane. Is that immoral?
 

Yes.
Quote:Lol @ freedom. What are you even talking about? The guy should the never have had access to a gun. Period. It was, in fact, illegal for him to have one. Yet because "freedom" we have a crazed people with guns shooting up churches. It's stupid.


Here's the easy fix:


You want a gun? Fine.


Go to a registered dealer. Get your background check. Come back three days later, buy your gun registered to your name. You can't sell or trade it. You get fined if you 'lose it' or don't report it stolen. Tired of it? Sell it back to a registered re-distributer. This way the state can track where all guns are and hold owners liable.


But Lordy no think about our FREEDOM.
 

No. You may not have my rights.
I don't know how this happened, he didn't have a gun making him do it...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...33891.html

Quote:We have a mental illness problem. Guns don't shoot themselves, and they don't brainwash those that have them into committing murders.

 

 

So, in other words, you don't actually have a solution?

 

Registered dealers? Who allows it? Are there a certain number of "registered" dealers? Does the government have the option of limiting the number of dealers and thus the number of people that have guns? 

 

Guns registered to an owner? While you obviously don't believe it to be possible, I don't want the government to know who has guns because I don't trust them to allow me to keep it. Should they choose to, they'll be able to seize these weapons. It's happened in other countries throughout history. 

 

You get fined for losing it? What are you implying? How would the government know that it's lost? Are they going to check on me and my weapons... just to make sure? 

 

Almost everyone that has had a weapon stolen will report it as such. There's literally no benefit of not doing it.

 

If anything, your suggestions pose more problems than it resolves. You assuming it fixes something, but you don't explain how it would. The only thing it'll do is limit the number of gun owners. Since nearly all gun crimes are committed by criminals with (already) unlawful possession of the gun, they'd continued to carry them and victimizing innocents. Before you claim that they'll be tracked and less likely to fall into their hands, all one would have to do is report it stolen. The person buying from the unregistered seller would already be committing a crime, and it wouldn't change the outcome. The seller only needs to claim that it was stolen; the government wouldn't be able to prove otherwise.
 

JagNGeorgia, that may be part of the problem, but it is not the whole problem.  

 

I won't pretend to know the answer.  Problem is we have a hard enough time discussing it.  To busy arguing why one side is right and the other isn't.  I think both sides make good points.  

 

I think there should be, at the very least, a US required gun course you have to take along with testing before owning a gun (other than say shot guns).  I don't think as a whole we respect guns enough.  Would this not be a start?

 

Do you not recognize other countries are doing a better job?  It is a complicated issue and there is no one fix all solution.  We can however look to other countries who are doing a better job.  I think that is a reasonable approach.

So it seems that most would agree that the laws or lack of, do not necessarily contribute to the problem here in the U.S. regarding gun violence.

 

Personally I think it is quite simple. Look at the type of Government that we have here. In our Capitalist society many people have every intention of living the American Dream; however, the reality is most people do not, and in fact most people just end up making that dream come true for someone else. This ofcourse leads to income inequality, which sadly is one of the highest in the world here in the states. 

 

Income inequality is inevitable within capitalism as someone is always trying to get something done more efficiently, faster, and ultimately cheaper than the other guy. As is the case with everything being made in China now and illegals taking jobs from Americans the guy on top makes his money but the middle man is the guy who gets cut out every time. 

 

Obviously cases like this one that happened in SC are based on pure ignorance and hate mass murders still make up a very small percentage of overall gun violence. This raises a question, are the majority of crimes, specifically gun related crimes motivated by things such as fear, hate, aggression, and ignorance? Or is it out of desperation? Or perhaps envy? 

 

Europe does not have this problem as their Government's are more socialist and wealth is redistributed.

 

 

With that said and this is coming from someone born in Europe, I will take Capitalism every single time as I feel that in a socialist world people are not truly free. I guess it's just the price that we pay.

 

I believe there are other causes to the issue as well but there is no doubt in my mind that income inequality is one of them.

Quote:So it seems that most would agree that the laws or lack of, do not necessarily contribute to the problem here in the U.S. regarding gun violence.

 

Personally I think it is quite simple. Look at the type of Government that we have here. In our Capitalist society many people have every intention of living the American Dream; however, the reality is most people do not, and in fact most people just end up making that dream come true for someone else. This ofcourse leads to income inequality, which sadly is one of the highest in the world here in the states. 

 

Income inequality is inevitable within capitalism as someone is always trying to get something done more efficiently, faster, and ultimately cheaper than the other guy. As is the case with everything being made in China now and illegals taking jobs from Americans the guy on top makes his money but the middle man is the guy who gets cut out every time. 

 

Obviously cases like this one that happened in SC are based on pure ignorance and hate mass murders still make up a very small percentage of overall gun violence. This raises a question, are the majority of crimes, specifically gun related crimes motivated by things such as fear, hate, aggression, and ignorance? Or is it out of desperation? Or perhaps envy? 

 

Europe does not have this problem as their Government's are more socialist and wealth is redistributed.

 

 

With that said and this is coming from someone born in Europe, I will take Capitalism every single time as I feel that in a socialist world people are not truly free. I guess it's just the price that we pay.

 

I believe there are other causes to the issue as well but there is no doubt in my mind that income inequality is one of them.
 

Thank you for adding something strong to the conversation and strongly agree with the bold.  You made some valid points.  I guess the question is can we lesson gun violence/death with education and laws within a capitalist society?  Is capitalism the root cause and as you said, the price we pay?  I predict we will see less gun deaths by police with the attention it has received and new education that will be implemented along with increased introduction of body cameras.  Will this hinder a cops ability to protect himself?  Will we see more cops die as a result of possible second guessing?  Or, overall, will cops be more prepared to handle a situation without it having to result in a suspects death?  We will see.  If we see less gun deaths by police and no significant increase in police deaths than I think it answers the question that we can improve.  That would be encouraging.  

Quote:Yes.
 

You have a skewed notion of morality.
Quote:I don't know how this happened, he didn't have a gun making him do it...

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-austria-after-man-drives-into-crowd-before-stabbing-passersby-in-graz-10333891.html'>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/at-least-two-killed-in-austria-after-man-drives-into-crowd-before-stabbing-passersby-in-graz-10333891.html</a>


And if he had an assault rifle? Would that have been better? Would 3 dead even be newsworthy in the US?
Quote:Go to a registered dealer. Get your background check. Come back three days later, buy your gun registered to your name. You can't sell or trade it. You get fined if you 'lose it' or don't report it stolen. Tired of it? Sell it back to a registered re-distributer. This way the state can track where all guns are and hold owners liable.

But Lordy no think about our FREEDOM.


The first four are already pretty standard aren't they?
Quote:Can someone explain what purpose a pistol has? Seriously...maybe I'm naive. I know rifles, shotguns are used for hunting. But let's say a 5 round derringer I just saw in the ads for $170.

Again, I'm no gun expert, but have shot a few. A pistol was good for extreme close range, and in most cases doesn't have the knock down power for hunting, much less accuracy.

I know it's much too late but if pistols were not abundantly available, would that decrease crime?

Gun advocates " blast away", but the flooding the market with pistols has been a mistake IMO.


They're easier to carry and/or stow. Pretty much the exact thing that makes them good for crime.
Quote:Ok are you all happy to do Military Service to go with the Swiss gun laws?
Who's calling for Swiss gun laws. You made the absurd point that Australia was some physical evidence that their gun restrictions leads to a utopia, I countered with pointing out Switzerland


If anything Australia gives credence to the alarmist that warm registration leads to confiscation. If you think the answer is for the Feds to round up American firearms like Australia did well.......
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