The best backup will not hinder his development, but the tradeoff is getting a better supporting cast for Trevor at another position.

For example, one might conclude "We can get Ertz for Minshew, and I'd really like to have a veteran tight end in place for Trevor."  
Reply:  "But if Trevor goes down this year, we need to replace him with something close to Trevor to maximize our chance of winning a championship."  
Counter-reply:  "I realize that, but for where we are now, I'm going to prioritize having Ertz be in place as a stable piece to put with Trevor.  Backup QB is lower priority for the ultimate direction of this team."

Do you actually think keeping or not keeping Minshew is going to result in a player of Ertz quality being added/not being added to this roster?  

'Cause that's pretty far out there. 

If you can improve a roster spot of higher value than QB2 by trading QB2, then you have to do that. That is not de-prioritizing winning/championships, nor is it prioritizing development. It's roster value 101.

So I guess the question then is what is the value of a QB2 on this years squad?
Is it worth a 5th round pick in 2022? a 4th round pick?
Is it only worth young player on a rookie deal? Is it worth an older vet looking to bounce back but who will likely be gone in a few years?

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For A, can you explain how you are saying they can do both in current Jags situation? I just don't understand that argument.

For B, I would say the new coaching staff/FO seems to have said that Minshew is abad fit for Lawrence's development or else why sign Beathard to such guaranteed deal? If they were that sold on Minshew being here and being a good fit for Lawrence's development, that deal makes no sense.

Also, I know that I definitely don't know clearly what it really takes to develop a QB or what goes on in those meetings/behind the scenes. That is probably true for most fans.

Just because Minshew has shown some flashes on practice field and his first few games with people vouching for his mind to grasping gameplans, doesn't meant he would fit to be able help another QB supplant him, or that he would want to at this point in his career. I know he was eyeing becoming a coach before going to Leach at WSU, but I haven't heard him already getting experience with that since his career skyrocketed after that.

Bethard and Baalke are tied from the niners. Beathard's deal isn't so large that it prevents him being cut. 2.75 mil guaranteed is nothing in today's NFL spending. 

The Jags best chances to win games this year are 99.9999% certain to come with Lawrence at QB.  Is there a better way to develop the hottest prospect in a decade than to put him on the field? If he gets hurt (knocking on all the wood everything) then how is having the best available backup QB to replace him going to hinder his development?  What aspect of developing Lawrence would be in danger by simply keeping whomever the 2nd best QB is as his primary backup? 

I'm sure Minshew is unhappy about losing his starting role. Assuming that will make him have bad chemistry with Lawrence is a leap I'm not going to take, personally. These young men have spent several years at this point in locker rooms that see various starters become back-ups many times each season. This dynamic is not new to them and many of them  have learned to handle it gracefully. 

Personally, I don't really care who the backup is, but I clearly really want them to choose one that gives them the best chance to win. Not one they think may not be the best but has chemistry with Lawrence. Lawrence doesn't need a friendly stablemate. He can do fine with a competitive natured backup IMO. There's also this quote from Urban this week:

"Whoever is going to be on that field is going to give us the best chance to win," he said. "Ultimately, I've got to make a decision on the guy who's going to help us win. That's a daily conversation as well."

Baalke wasn't with the niners when they drafted him in 2017. His last year there was 2016.

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Ertz being feasible is besides the point.  It was an illustrative example of how player development can compete with other choices in building a roster.

Some decisions prioritize the present over the future, some prioritize the future over the present.  For example, if you trade a player that is now good for future draft picks, you have theoretically subtracted from this year's team for next year's.  It's something you do -- at some point, you're set with what you've got and think you can afford to deal a player that would otherwise make your squad.  Doesn't mean you're going to tank, doesn't mean you wouldn't like to win a Superbowl, but you still choose between different scenarios.

The Ertz example being feasible is not "beside the point," because it grossly exaggerates Minshew's likely trade value. This is why your example is not illustrative, but rather contorted.  And it says absolutely nothing about player development.

Any trade can be balanced with draft picks.  

I've concluded that you will argue with literally anything at this point.

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Do you actually think keeping or not keeping Minshew is going to result in a player of Ertz quality being added/not being added to this roster?  

'Cause that's pretty far out there. 

If you can improve a roster spot of higher value than QB2 by trading QB2, then you have to do that. That is not de-prioritizing winning/championships, nor is it prioritizing development. It's roster value 101.

So I guess the question then is what is the value of a QB2 on this years squad?
Is it worth a 5th round pick in 2022? a 4th round pick?
Is it only worth young player on a rookie deal? Is it worth an older vet looking to bounce back but who will likely be gone in a few years?

The problem with this is where do you stop. How important is the backup safety, how important is the 4th choice WR? Do we need a 5th CB?

Sadly injuries are a part of the NFL and if one or 2 injuries can destroy your season, you've done a bad job building your roster. You need guys who can come in and play at the same level. You also need competition at positions, i dont like the idea of guys thinking theyre the #1 so job done. They shouldn't crumble having to compete.

I'd rather have Lawrence looking at someone like Minshew playing well in camp and think I need to prove I'm better rather than thinking as hes #1 pick and Trevor Lawrence it's his job.

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The Ertz example being feasible is not "beside the point," because it grossly exaggerates Minshew's likely trade value. This is why your example is not illustrative, but rather contorted.  And it says absolutely nothing about player development.

Any trade can be balanced with draft picks.  

I've concluded that you will argue with literally anything at this point.

I've seen several bad conclusions you've come to in this thread alone.  What's one more? 

Yeah - we can clearly agree to disagree and let the thread move on.

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Bethard and Baalke are tied from the niners. Beathard's deal isn't so large that it prevents him being cut. 2.75 mil guaranteed is nothing in today's NFL spending. 

The Jags best chances to win games this year are 99.9999% certain to come with Lawrence at QB.  Is there a better way to develop the hottest prospect in a decade than to put him on the field? If he gets hurt (knocking on all the wood everything) then how is having the best available backup QB to replace him going to hinder his development?  What aspect of developing Lawrence would be in danger by simply keeping whomever the 2nd best QB is as his primary backup? 

I'm sure Minshew is unhappy about losing his starting role. Assuming that will make him have bad chemistry with Lawrence is a leap I'm not going to take, personally. These young men have spent several years at this point in locker rooms that see various starters become back-ups many times each season. This dynamic is not new to them and many of them  have learned to handle it gracefully. 

Personally, I don't really care who the backup is, but I clearly really want them to choose one that gives them the best chance to win. Not one they think may not be the best but has chemistry with Lawrence. Lawrence doesn't need a friendly stablemate. He can do fine with a competitive natured backup IMO. There's also this quote from Urban this week:

"Whoever is going to be on that field is going to give us the best chance to win," he said. "Ultimately, I've got to make a decision on the guy who's going to help us win. That's a daily conversation as well."

Baalke wasn't with the niners when they drafted him in 2017. His last year there was 2016.

Ah yeah -  he was fired in early 2017. I just saw 2005-2017 and didn't think about that. My bad. 
I stand by the second half of that statement about the 2.75 mil Beathard salary being expendable at this point in the NFL.

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The last thing the jags need is a bad back up qb. Please no. At least minshew will bring a little excitement and hope if he has to come in

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Baalke wasn't with the niners when they drafted him in 2017. His last year there was 2016.

Ah yeah -  he was fired in early 2017. I just saw 2005-2017 and didn't think about that. My bad. 
I stand by the second half of that statement about the 2.75 mil Beathard salary being expendable at this point in the NFL.

Yea it was on Jan 1st when they gave him the axe. I could have sworn Baalke drafted Beathard as well until I looked it up a few weeks ago while I was reading through some other stuff. I'm sure he was still familiar with him due to scouting though.

Agreed about the 2.75m as well. If Minshew is clearly the 2nd best QB on this roster, he should be the back up. That 2.75m should play no role in who gets the nod at #2 or not.

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I'd be willing to bet exactly zero NFL head coaches agree with this. 

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Developing a QB   -------------------------------------  Trying to win every game

Two different things.

Then why do so many teams have back up QB's that would be hard pressed to win a game or few if pressed into service?

Also, I'd argue no one knows what Minshew's future really is.
Does anyone on this board think he will develop into a good starter or just a high level back up?
If he is only a back up, is he really already a top 10 back up QB in the league on this team as currently constructed or only on a team that has a decent roster around him?
Is really the guy who can groom a younger QB given the weaknesses we saw in his vision over his last 16 or so games? Does he even want to do that?

This is your opinion. Very few coaches are going to cull better options to keep a backup who isn't going to put the team in best position to win should the starter get hurt. I'll grant that few backups are going to replicate the starter's stats or odds to win.

Are you saying that teams are setting themselves up to fail if their starter gets hurt? There's a lot more to being a backup than "can throw a ball over them mountains". And yes, I think GM15 has the capability to be a very good backup and maybe a serviceable starter. I don't know if he wants to be a backup, but reality sets in real quick when you set your demand at "start or walk" and everyone watches you walk.

I'm trying to figure out your stance - are you saying we should keep him, lest we end up with a backup that leaves us hard pressed to win a game, or move him because you have doubts that he will benefit the team as a backup?

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Mentor mentor mentor

I think Lawrence should be mentoring CJ.

ding ding ding

the coaches will mentor. we don't need a third guy to keep the bench warm if we stick with TLaw and Minshew in the QB Room.

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Who are you paraphrasing? 

Not me. 

Please find me a coach that doesn't prioritize winning regardless of who is starting at QB. I'll wait. 

While you're at it - find me a front office that will go with their third choice at back-up QB instead of their second choice because "we aren't prioritizing a championship this season."  

LOL

The LOL was a nice, friendly touch.  It's a joy to converse.

But anyway, to spell out it differently, the competing priorities are not "win championship, not win championship."  The competing priorities are "value at position X, value at position Y."  An NFL roster is a balance between different types of needs.  

If Minshew has no trade value, it's an entirely moot point.  Just keep him.  But if you can strengthen your roster in a different way, by trading him then it becomes interesting.  And finally, when the goals that are competing against each other are "now" and the "future," teams are put in the position of adding that into the mix.

For example, under your logic, the Jags should go hard after Aaron Rodgers.  He is a better quarterback right now than Trevor.  He is the answer to the question "Which quarterback would be a better choice if the goal is to win a championship this season."  But that would be silly, for reasons that you know.

OK, let's play this out as armchair GMs.

Preseason is wrapping up, and Minshew has looked the part as a quality QB. Beathard has played OK, but at times struggled. Luton is clearly the fourth QB on the depth chart.
Kyle Allen has won the starting position in WAS, and they have announced that Fitzpatrick is up for trade or will be released.

Do you keep Minshew and his pittance of a salary as your primary backup? Would you prefer to trade him for a fifth or sixth as they have reportedly asked for him and roll with CJB? 
Do you cast everyone aside and throw down for Fitzy?

If you don't want to trade Shew for a fifth, where is the sweet spot where you are willing to part ways with him?

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The LOL was a nice, friendly touch.  It's a joy to converse.

But anyway, to spell out it differently, the competing priorities are not "win championship, not win championship."  The competing priorities are "value at position X, value at position Y."  An NFL roster is a balance between different types of needs.  

If Minshew has no trade value, it's an entirely moot point.  Just keep him.  But if you can strengthen your roster in a different way, by trading him then it becomes interesting.  And finally, when the goals that are competing against each other are "now" and the "future," teams are put in the position of adding that into the mix.

For example, under your logic, the Jags should go hard after Aaron Rodgers.  He is a better quarterback right now than Trevor.  He is the answer to the question "Which quarterback would be a better choice if the goal is to win a championship this season."  But that would be silly, for reasons that you know.

OK, let's play this out as armchair GMs.

Preseason is wrapping up, and Minshew has looked the part as a quality QB. Beathard has played OK, but at times struggled. Luton is clearly the fourth QB on the depth chart.
Kyle Allen has won the starting position in WAS, and they have announced that Fitzpatrick is up for trade or will be released.

Do you keep Minshew and his pittance of a salary as your primary backup? Would you prefer to trade him for a fifth or sixth as they have reportedly asked for him and roll with CJB? 
Do you cast everyone aside and throw down for Fitzy?

If you don't want to trade Shew for a fifth, where is the sweet spot where you are willing to part ways with him?

It would depend on the cost of Fitz (or someone like him).  I would like trade Minshew for a third or fourth for sure (the "sweet spot").  But if it's a 5th or a 6th, Minshew is looking good, and a Fitz will be expensive, I'd just keep Minshew.  You need a good backup, so don't look for trouble.

The reason to undertake the question is Minshew is not quite a good fit for a team that just brought in a #1 -- he is on the rise, probably wants to go where he has a reasonable chance to start in the next 3 years, and there will probably be no chance of re-signing him anyway.  Any and all development of him for the future could be wasted.  So may has well get someone a little further along that is happy with the backup role, yet paradoxically is good (a veteran).

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OK, let's play this out as armchair GMs.

Preseason is wrapping up, and Minshew has looked the part as a quality QB. Beathard has played OK, but at times struggled. Luton is clearly the fourth QB on the depth chart.
Kyle Allen has won the starting position in WAS, and they have announced that Fitzpatrick is up for trade or will be released.

Do you keep Minshew and his pittance of a salary as your primary backup? Would you prefer to trade him for a fifth or sixth as they have reportedly asked for him and roll with CJB? 
Do you cast everyone aside and throw down for Fitzy?

If you don't want to trade Shew for a fifth, where is the sweet spot where you are willing to part ways with him?

It would depend on the cost of Fitz (or someone like him).  I would like trade Minshew for a third or fourth for sure (the "sweet spot").  But if it's a 5th or a 6th, Minshew is looking good, and a Fitz will be expensive, I'd just keep Minshew.  You need a good backup, so don't look for trouble.

The reason to undertake the question is Minshew is not quite a good fit for a team that just brought in a #1 -- he is on the rise, probably wants to go where he has a reasonable chance to start in the next 3 years, and there will probably be no chance of re-signing him anyway.  Any and all development of him for the future could be wasted.  So may has well get someone a little further along that is happy with the backup role, yet paradoxically is good (a veteran).

Minshew isn't really on the rise. He was. Now he's put enough bad film on tape to temper that.

He's a guy that's done just enough to spark interest from a few teams in need. 

The assumption that Minshew is not a good fit with Trevor is still just an assumption. 
You may be right about that, but we aren't in the QB meeting rooms with them to know this. Competition may be the best thing for Trevor. Personally, I'd be more inclined to push him than to saddle him with a grey-bearded mentor type.

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I saw that NYC4Jags posted this on Trevor's thread but I will mention it over here too as well because it's relevant. Brian Scohottenheimer mentioned that the Jags haven't named the starting QB yet. I do think that Trevor will more than likely start but I think this shows how highly they think of Gardner. Here is another quote that was made.

https://twitter.com/_John_Shipley/status...9980656645

Darrell Bevell talked about Gardner's intelligence the other day and talked about how they did certain plays with them and wanted to see how he got them in and out of situations. It sounds to me like they are prepping him to start if it's needed. He also said he's glad that he's with the Jags. They still may trade Gardner but may they have changed their mind/or are putting that on pause for the time being.

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Mentoring is overrated. Who was Peyton Manning's mentor to teach him the offense in Indy? Nah the coaches ended up bowing to him for direction. What about that backup mentor for Tom Brady? That Drew Bledsoe sure did make Tom the man he is now. I know the all time great Joe Montana sure was hip to training up and helping his replacement Steve Young who wanted to shove him out of the way and oh wait did just that. I seriously doubt some has been backup or marginal talent is really the piece we need to make Trevor Lawrence great.

Please. Minshew is a hungry and cheap player that was saddled with crap coaching and performed despite the awful game planning and game day coaching decisions. If Meyer is all people think he is, well then Minshew will be just fine and I'm sure Trevor Lawrence will be as well.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

Mentoring is overrated.  Who was Peyton Manning's mentor to teach him the offense in Indy?  Nah the coaches ended up bowing to him for direction.  What about that backup mentor for Tom Brady? That Drew Bledsoe sure did make Tom the man he is now.  I know the all time great Joe Montana sure was hip to training up and helping his replacement Steve Young who wanted to shove him out of the way and oh wait did just that. I seriously doubt some has been backup or marginal talent is really the piece we need to make Trevor Lawrence great.

Please.  Minshew is a hungry and cheap player that was saddled with crap coaching and performed despite the awful game planning and game day coaching decisions.  If Meyer is all people think he is, well then Minshew will be just fine and I'm sure Trevor Lawrence will be as well.

I think that Gardner could take well in Urban's system. Doug was a poor coach. Trevor would not have fared well with him either IMO.

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Mentoring is overrated.  Who was Peyton Manning's mentor to teach him the offense in Indy?  Nah the coaches ended up bowing to him for direction.  What about that backup mentor for Tom Brady? That Drew Bledsoe sure did make Tom the man he is now.  I know the all time great Joe Montana sure was hip to training up and helping his replacement Steve Young who wanted to shove him out of the way and oh wait did just that. I seriously doubt some has been backup or marginal talent is really the piece we need to make Trevor Lawrence great.

Please.  Minshew is a hungry and cheap player that was saddled with crap coaching and performed despite the awful game planning and game day coaching decisions.  If Meyer is all people think he is, well then Minshew will be just fine and I'm sure Trevor Lawrence will be as well.

I think that Gardner could take well in Urban's system. Doug was a poor coach. Trevor would not have fared well with him either IMO.

I definitely agree.  There is a definite ceiling with Gardner compared to Trevor but the day to day coaching, game planning and adjustments in game and through the season have a huge part to play.  I really hope that we have a success system to really allow this team to take off. Players have natural abilities and traits that set them up to be successful but coaching sure has hampered this franchise for 15 plus years now.

The planning and long term capabilities to make this a franchise have been absent.  Everyone loses in the NFL but franchises show how busted they are by the 5 to 10 year records they accumulate and frankly the Shad Khan age has been spoiled.

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

I think that Gardner could take well in Urban's system. Doug was a poor coach. Trevor would not have fared well with him either IMO.

I definitely agree.  There is a definite ceiling with Gardner compared to Trevor but the day to day coaching, game planning and adjustments in game and through the season have a huge part to play.  I really hope that we have a success system to really allow this team to take off. Players have natural abilities and traits that set them up to be successful but coaching sure has hampered this franchise for 15 plus years now.

The planning and long term capabilities to make this a franchise have been absent.  Everyone loses in the NFL but franchises show how busted they are by the 5 to 10 year records they accumulate and frankly the Shad Khan age has been spoiled.

These types of things can definitely make a big difference for QB's. Look at Justin Herbert and the Chargers last year. For as talented, and hard working he is, he could only overcome so much due to bad coaching decisions. Which is why the Chargers lost multiple games last year that largely came down to poor coaching choices. And Justin had huge big games. If he had better coaching they might have been a playoff team (at least a WC). They had several games last year where the score was close. Coaching, game planning, adjustments make a difference. 

It seems like the coaches are willing to do those things with Gardner if/when necessary. They were already dialing up stuff like tricks plays for him and the offense when he was running with the ones yesterday. In addition to putting him in different situations to see how he reacts. It sounds like they are willing to put in the preparation for him and the team if he ever has to start for some reason (and as long as he's still on the team). That sounds better than what the last coaching staff. They didn't really prepare the team that well and that was a big reason why the team's record was so bad last year.

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Mentoring is overrated.  Who was Peyton Manning's mentor to teach him the offense in Indy?  Nah the coaches ended up bowing to him for direction.  What about that backup mentor for Tom Brady? That Drew Bledsoe sure did make Tom the man he is now.  I know the all time great Joe Montana sure was hip to training up and helping his replacement Steve Young who wanted to shove him out of the way and oh wait did just that. I seriously doubt some has been backup or marginal talent is really the piece we need to make Trevor Lawrence great.

Please.  Minshew is a hungry and cheap player that was saddled with crap coaching and performed despite the awful game planning and game day coaching decisions.  If Meyer is all people think he is, well then Minshew will be just fine and I'm sure Trevor Lawrence will be as well.

I agree 100 percent. The mentor guy better hope he can learn the offense and make the throws and not suck. This is the pros baby. Get
Good or get gone. 

I’ll mentor his behind right to the bench because it’s him or me. I’m there for 1 reason...and it ain’t to win football games. It’s to get that money! If I do my job but the team loses then oh well. Dog eat dog league. 

The weak links have to feast or famine. Get outta here with that mentor crap.

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Minshew isn't going anywhere this season unless some team makes the Jags an offer they cannot refuse. (I don't see that happening) He is a competitor, on his rookie deal and will only get better this year. He will be the back up.

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

In my opinion getting that low of a pick would be pretty stupid.

Contrary to popular belief, there should be a "competition" for the starting slot right now between Gardner and Trevor.  A starting spot should NEVER be given based on draft position.  Trevor Lawrence has never taken an NFL snap in a live NFL game.

Well, according to Schottenheimer they haven't decided who's the starter yet. He also praised Minshew and thinks he can be a terrific coach.

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In my opinion getting that low of a pick would be pretty stupid.

Contrary to popular belief, there should be a "competition" for the starting slot right now between Gardner and Trevor.  A starting spot should NEVER be given based on draft position.  Trevor Lawrence has never taken an NFL snap in a live NFL game.

Well, according to Schottenheimer they haven't decided who's the starter yet. He also praised Minshew and thinks he can be a terrific coach.

Saban thought Minshew would be a heck of a coach as well.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854...ed-alabama

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The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.