I already said every generation goes through this, still not every memory is nostalgia, I'm sure that not a single memory a Nazi death camp survivor is feeling nostalgic when telling their story... 

"nos·tal·gia    a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations: .

https://www.google.com/search?q=nostalgi...e&ie=UTF-8

OF course, but they aren't romanticizing their childhoods to the detriment of the current generations either.

That's not the point of my posts either...

The point of my posts has been that every generation makes changes...Change is not always a bad thing, but a lot of what and how things change is not good...

It's not good that the racial divide is growing...It's not good that schools teach less actual curriculum and omit certain things because they are ugly parts of our history..It's not good that hate groups are springing up all over and rioting and such under the guise of protesting...It's not good that the hate groups can call for the killing of cops and no one is trying to stop it...It's not good when Congress and the people are focusing more on trying to find things the POTUS is or has done wrong than they do trying to pass laws...It's not good when young people have no idea what gender they are or parents start telling kindergarten age kids that they can pick which gender they want to be...It's not good when corporate greed shapes the work force...

These are the kind of things I am talking about in my posts, not just because things are changing from generation to generation...

---

OF course, but they aren't romanticizing their childhoods to the detriment of the current generations either.

That's not the point of my posts either...

The point of my posts has been that every generation makes changes...Change is not always a bad thing, but a lot of what and how things change is not good...

It's not good that the racial divide is growing...

It's not good that schools teach less actual curriculum and omit certain things because they are ugly parts of our history..

It's not good that hate groups are springing up all over and rioting and such under the guise of protesting...

It's not good that the hate groups can call for the killing of cops and no one is trying to stop it...

It's not good when Congress and the people are focusing more on trying to find things the POTUS is or has done wrong than they do trying to pass laws...

It's not good when young people have no idea what gender they are or parents start telling kindergarten age kids that they can pick which gender they want to be...

It's not good when corporate greed shapes the work force...

These are the kind of things I am talking about in my posts, not just because things are changing from generation to generation...

1. Yesterday was the anniversary of the integration of public schools. The idea that racial relationships are worse today than they were in ya'll childhoods is silly. We have a political movement using race to cover their intentions, but the overall relationships have improved and continue to do so.

2. You're old enough to know that history is written by the winners and they often gloss over their own foibles. You've got people from your generation in this very forum who insist that slavery wasn't the primary cause of the War of Northern Aggression and that FDR ended the Great Depression. Let's not lose sight of the simple fact that every generation has false narratives of the way things were.

3. Hate groups today are LESS active than they were in the last 50 years. When the Klan rallied in your day they had manpower, wealth, and sometimes the law in their favor, today they are pretty much just a bunch of yahoos confined to the kid's table by the population who've grown past their idiocy. Antifa is not a "hate" group, they are a political group using the same tactics Commie Lefties have used for more than 100 years.

4. It's like the 60s never happened for you.

5. It's best when Congress is occupied with things other than passing laws. Gridlock is the best concept the Founders put in the Constitution and we need more of it.

6. I agree on the gender thing, but the other side will tell you it's no different that homosexuality or inter-racial marriage, both huge social taboos of your generation.

7. Have any idea why the Gilded Age was bad? When the Military-Industrial Complex came to power? Who created the workplace law that we all now toil under? It sure wasn't the Millennials.

All in all, the things you and JIB are bemoaning aren't that different from your own lives, you simply have a different perspective on them now that you're older. That's what bugs me, the rose-colored glasses effect of old age. I really see it in my parents as they talk about how great things were in their schools and neighborhoods growing up, knowing full well they were sheltered from the difficulties of life in the 1950s.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

how can anyone be sad when Bruval is right around the corner

.

---

That's not the point of my posts either...

The point of my posts has been that every generation makes changes...Change is not always a bad thing, but a lot of what and how things change is not good...

It's not good that the racial divide is growing...

It's not good that schools teach less actual curriculum and omit certain things because they are ugly parts of our history..

It's not good that hate groups are springing up all over and rioting and such under the guise of protesting...

It's not good that the hate groups can call for the killing of cops and no one is trying to stop it...

It's not good when Congress and the people are focusing more on trying to find things the POTUS is or has done wrong than they do trying to pass laws...

It's not good when young people have no idea what gender they are or parents start telling kindergarten age kids that they can pick which gender they want to be...

It's not good when corporate greed shapes the work force...

These are the kind of things I am talking about in my posts, not just because things are changing from generation to generation...

1. Yesterday was the anniversary of the integration of public schools. The idea that racial relationships are worse today than they were in ya'll childhoods is silly. We have a political movement using race to cover their intentions, but the overall relationships have improved and continue to do so.

2. You're old enough to know that history is written by the winners and they often gloss over their own foibles. You've got people from your generation in this very forum who insist that slavery wasn't the primary cause of the War of Northern Aggression and that FDR ended the Great Depression. Let's not lose sight of the simple fact that every generation has false narratives of the way things were.

3. Hate groups today are LESS active than they were in the last 50 years. When the Klan rallied in your day they had manpower, wealth, and sometimes the law in their favor, today they are pretty much just a bunch of yahoos confined to the kid's table by the population who've grown past their idiocy. Antifa is not a "hate" group, they are a political group using the same tactics Commie Lefties have used for more than 100 years.

4. It's like the 60s never happened for you.

5. It's best when Congress is occupied with things other than passing laws. Gridlock is the best concept the Founders put in the Constitution and we need more of it.

6. I agree on the gender thing, but the other side will tell you it's no different that homosexuality or inter-racial marriage, both huge social taboos of your generation.

7. Have any idea why the Gilded Age was bad? When the Military-Industrial Complex came to power? Who created the workplace law that we all now toil under? It sure wasn't the Millennials. 

All in all, the things you and JIB are bemoaning aren't that different from your own lives, you simply have a different perspective on them now that you're older. That's what bugs me, the rose-colored glasses effect of old age. I really see it in my parents as they talk about how great things were in their schools and neighborhoods growing up, knowing full well they were sheltered from the difficulties of life in the 1950s.

wow talk about  missing the point on everythig....I said the racial divide  had gotten better thru the years,  but now it's growing apart (getting worse again)...I dont believe slavery was the single cause for the civil war...it was about the federal government interfering with the states right to govern themselves...congress sucks at everything and needs to concentrate on things that will make us grow and prosper..JIB and I have both acknowledged that every generation has changes, it's just that the direction this generation is headed is driving this country backwards, back to like the 60's and 70's..Black only college graduations, BLM anti everything white and rioting and looting has replaced protesting

---

Boy. You sure do like generalizing don't you?

You're so out of touch with young people it's insane. It's not the teachers fault that he doesn't know how to mail something, it's probably yours. Kids do learn how to mail things in fact having a pen pal still exists to this day. But you wouldn't know that because you have zero interest in what the younger generation is doing these days. Let's just blame it all on technology and the teachers but not hold parents (including yourself) accountable. 

Try teaching your kid how to mail something, write an application or use a phone book. Ultimately, they're YOUR child.

you have no idea what and how I parent my kids..My kids have many useful skills that most kids their age don't have that aren't taught in schools due to our teachings...I'm not out of touch with kids, I am simply appalled by how far the school system has degraded...They pick and choose what to teach, omit lots of history and anything that might cause controversy, the standard for education has dramatically decreased... No shop classes, no Home Economics classes, PE is almost non existent, no life skill classes, no creative writing classes, and cursive writing is not even taught in Pa. Try knowing something about a person before you judge them

This is what it's reduced to when teachers are forced to teach to a standardized test.  It's really not the fault of the teachers, but more likely the administrative bloat, union influence, and political correctness that have forced the curriculum to be more or less watered down.  There are still excellent teachers and schools out there in the public domain, but they're being handcuffed by a system they have no control over.

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

1. Yesterday was the anniversary of the integration of public schools. The idea that racial relationships are worse today than they were in ya'll childhoods is silly. We have a political movement using race to cover their intentions, but the overall relationships have improved and continue to do so.

2. You're old enough to know that history is written by the winners and they often gloss over their own foibles. You've got people from your generation in this very forum who insist that slavery wasn't the primary cause of the War of Northern Aggression and that FDR ended the Great Depression. Let's not lose sight of the simple fact that every generation has false narratives of the way things were.

3. Hate groups today are LESS active than they were in the last 50 years. When the Klan rallied in your day they had manpower, wealth, and sometimes the law in their favor, today they are pretty much just a bunch of yahoos confined to the kid's table by the population who've grown past their idiocy. Antifa is not a "hate" group, they are a political group using the same tactics Commie Lefties have used for more than 100 years.

4. It's like the 60s never happened for you.

5. It's best when Congress is occupied with things other than passing laws. Gridlock is the best concept the Founders put in the Constitution and we need more of it.

6. I agree on the gender thing, but the other side will tell you it's no different that homosexuality or inter-racial marriage, both huge social taboos of your generation.

7. Have any idea why the Gilded Age was bad? When the Military-Industrial Complex came to power? Who created the workplace law that we all now toil under? It sure wasn't the Millennials. 

All in all, the things you and JIB are bemoaning aren't that different from your own lives, you simply have a different perspective on them now that you're older. That's what bugs me, the rose-colored glasses effect of old age. I really see it in my parents as they talk about how great things were in their schools and neighborhoods growing up, knowing full well they were sheltered from the difficulties of life in the 1950s.

it's just that the direction this generation is headed is driving this country backwards

And in saying that you are exactly like every other aging generation since forever.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

it's just that the direction this generation is headed is driving this country backwards

And in saying that you are exactly like every other aging generation since forever.

I have been watching this tread since JIB's first post.  I have to say that the lurking has been enlightening for me.  I have been triggered to respond previously but my "advanced" age and experience has allowed me to refrain up until now.  

My observation for what little it is worth as a member of the over 50 crowd, flsprtsgod or do you prefer your formal title of Florida Sports God?  Oops I digress.  I was once like you, exactly like you.  My arrogance was only exceeded by my ignorance.  

You seem to confuse nostalgia with genuine concern.  I will freely admit as will JIB, WB and most everyone that grew up that time that we wish we could go back to a time when we had no clue.  That is nostalgia and everyone regardless of circumstances experiences it as they get older.  The concerns JIB posted and WB concurred with seem to be lost upon you.  Perhaps I can bridge the gap.  

I grew up in a time where gun racks with actual guns hanging in them in and OMG they were loaded was no big concern.  Can you believe that I got into actual fist a cuffs with other people that had loaded guns in their pick up trucks as well and it never occurred to us to use them?  Win or lose?  What happened that now the first response is to pull a piece and shoot someone over every disagreement?  That is concern.  Something has changed along the way, human life is no longer valued where it once was.  This is a concern, at least to me it is.  

As we evolve, we seem to devolve.  That is the overall concern that I think JIB is trying to convey.

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

And in saying that you are exactly like every other aging generation since forever.

I have been watching this tread since JIB's first post.  I have to say that the lurking has been enlightening for me.  I have been triggered to respond previously but my "advanced" age and experience has allowed me to refrain up until now.  

My observation for what little it is worth as a member of the over 50 crowd, flsprtsgod or do you prefer your formal title of Florida Sports God?  Oops I digress.  I was once like you, exactly like you.  My arrogance was only exceeded by my ignorance.  

You seem to confuse nostalgia with genuine concern.  I will freely admit as will JIB, WB and most everyone that grew up that time that we wish we could go back to a time when we had no clue.  That is nostalgia and everyone regardless of circumstances experiences it as they get older.  The concerns JIB posted and WB concurred with seem to be lost upon you.  Perhaps I can bridge the gap.  

I grew up in a time where gun racks with actual guns hanging in them in and OMG they were loaded was no big concern.  Can you believe that I got into actual fist a cuffs with other people that had loaded guns in their pick up trucks as well and it never occurred to us to use them?  Win or lose?  What happened that now the first response is to pull a piece and shoot someone over every disagreement?  That is concern.  Something has changed along the way, human life is no longer valued where it once was.  This is a concern, at least to me it is.  

As we evolve, we seem to devolve.  That is the overall concern that I think JIB is trying to convey.

I completely agree...Heck I remember in high school I had a gun rack in my truck with a shotgun rifle and fishing pole hanging on it in the school parking lot windows rolled down and no one gave a [BLEEP]...One time the vice principle caught me in the hall way and asked if I had got a new rifle cuz it looked like I changed it out and he started asking about it because he was thinking about buying a new one as well...THAT is nostalgia...

---

I've been reading this thread since the start and I now feel compelled to post..

Sure, I'm just a shade under 33, but I feel I have relatively 'old school values' when it comes to a lot of things. I put that down to my father being a Sergeant Major in the British Army. I respect my elders, my superiors (at work) and above all, my parents and in laws. I expect the same of my son and children to (hopefully) follow, but I firmly believe that respect starts at home.

For what it's worth, my son lives with my ex-wife, and we all get along well, mainly for my son's benefit but also because there are 'no hard feelings'. We just weren't right for each other and we're both mature enough to agree on that and move on. Another poster said that they have family time every Sunday. For those of you on here that I've had the privilege to meet and engage with over Facebook, you'll see and agree that I have my son a great deal.. not enough for me, however, but still around 14 days per month. School holidays allow more (31 of his 42 days off over the summer holidays). Anyway, I digress.. we, as a family, ensure that we have time cuddled up reading, watching family movies (Harry Potter is his choice right now) and playing board games, during the NFL season we have 'Jags Sundays'. This is something that I've noticed a lot of people don't do. Some people of my generation just let their kids sit and play on iPad's and Xbox's etc.. Although my son does play on an iPad, we do limit this so we have quality time together.

Anyway, I get what JIB was saying regarding the LGBT contingent and I don't think he was being homophobic in any way. I'm very supportive of same sex relationships and marriages, I think it's a great thing that the world is starting to agree with that too.. I do feel, however, that it's a shame that it's 2017 and people still disagree and are offended by it. I'm not sure I see the need for events specifically directed towards it though. I remember some years ago when there was a 'Straight/Heterosexual Pride' suggested and it caused uproar in the LGBT community. So people in same sex relationships are allowed to celebrate their sexuality, but heterosexual people are not? How does that work exactly?

Moving on to the post made by copycat.. Living in England, the threat of arguments being solved by guns has never really been a huge issue (sure, it's getting more common now..), but we've had a lot of knife crime for a long time. I'm not sure why people can't just get a long or respect someone's view as different to their own without the need to stab them causing them grievous bodily harm... or worse... why do people need to fight to get their point across? Working for the Ambulance Service, I just see pointless arguments and fights as another strain on our health service which in turn delays responses to innocent people who genuinely need us.

I'm very much a live and let live, relaxed kind of person, but along with JIB, I'm quite saddened by the thought that the only thing ruining our planet are the people on it (not everyone, obviously).

---

80% of what I talk about is nonesense.. the other 25% is made up statistics...


 

And in saying that you are exactly like every other aging generation since forever.

I have been watching this tread since JIB's first post.  I have to say that the lurking has been enlightening for me.  I have been triggered to respond previously but my "advanced" age and experience has allowed me to refrain up until now.  

My observation for what little it is worth as a member of the over 50 crowd, flsprtsgod or do you prefer your formal title of Florida Sports God?  Oops I digress.  I was once like you, exactly like you.  My arrogance was only exceeded by my ignorance.  

You seem to confuse nostalgia with genuine concern.  I will freely admit as will JIB, WB and most everyone that grew up that time that we wish we could go back to a time when we had no clue.  That is nostalgia and everyone regardless of circumstances experiences it as they get older.  The concerns JIB posted and WB concurred with seem to be lost upon you.  Perhaps I can bridge the gap.  

I grew up in a time where gun racks with actual guns hanging in them in and OMG they were loaded was no big concern.  Can you believe that I got into actual fist a cuffs with other people that had loaded guns in their pick up trucks as well and it never occurred to us to use them?  Win or lose?  What happened that now the first response is to pull a piece and shoot someone over every disagreement?  That is concern.  Something has changed along the way, human life is no longer valued where it once was.  This is a concern, at least to me it is.  

As we evolve, we seem to devolve.  That is the overall concern that I think JIB is trying to convey.

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I have been watching this tread since JIB's first post.  I have to say that the lurking has been enlightening for me.  I have been triggered to respond previously but my "advanced" age and experience has allowed me to refrain up until now.  

My observation for what little it is worth as a member of the over 50 crowd, flsprtsgod or do you prefer your formal title of Florida Sports God?  Oops I digress.  I was once like you, exactly like you.  My arrogance was only exceeded by my ignorance.  

You seem to confuse nostalgia with genuine concern.  I will freely admit as will JIB, WB and most everyone that grew up that time that we wish we could go back to a time when we had no clue.  That is nostalgia and everyone regardless of circumstances experiences it as they get older.  The concerns JIB posted and WB concurred with seem to be lost upon you.  Perhaps I can bridge the gap.  

I grew up in a time where gun racks with actual guns hanging in them in and OMG they were loaded was no big concern.  Can you believe that I got into actual fist a cuffs with other people that had loaded guns in their pick up trucks as well and it never occurred to us to use them?  Win or lose?  What happened that now the first response is to pull a piece and shoot someone over every disagreement?  That is concern.  Something has changed along the way, human life is no longer valued where it once was.  This is a concern, at least to me it is.  

As we evolve, we seem to devolve.  That is the overall concern that I think JIB is trying to convey.

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

And an opposing view:  http://time.com/4607059/murder-rate-incr...ties-2016/

From the article:

The trend lines in the report run counter to some of the most dire warnings aired during the presidential election. As a candidate, Donald Trump spoke out against what he characterized as record levels of crime in urban areas. While the murder rate has increased, overall crime across the U.S. is near all-time lows. The report’s authors note that “concerns about a national crime wave are still premature, but these trends suggest a need to understand how and why murder is increasing in some cities.”  

I stand by my small world anecdote.  I also agree 100% with "if it bleeds it leads" perspective.  The major media outlets lost all credibility when it became a for profit institution.

In response to your PS, why is it if someone suggests that they would like to see the country return to a simpler time where life revolved around the family unit that it is automatically assumed that the black community is not included in that desire?  Why can't we all go there together as equals?

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

And an opposing view:  http://time.com/4607059/murder-rate-incr...ties-2016/

From the article:

The trend lines in the report run counter to some of the most dire warnings aired during the presidential election. As a candidate, Donald Trump spoke out against what he characterized as record levels of crime in urban areas. While the murder rate has increased, overall crime across the U.S. is near all-time lows. The report’s authors note that “concerns about a national crime wave are still premature, but these trends suggest a need to understand how and why murder is increasing in some cities.”  

I stand by my small world anecdote.  I also agree 100% with "if it bleeds it leads" perspective.  The major media outlets lost all credibility when it became a for profit institution.

In response to your PS, why is it if someone suggests that they would like to see the country return to a simpler time where life revolved around the family unit that it is automatically assumed that the black community is not included in that desire?  Why can't we all go there together as equals?

That article isn't an opposing view, it's a confirming one. As it notes, the slight increase is driven by 2 cities (Chi, Char) and that 2 of the 3 cities (Balt, DC, Chi)  that previously had the same issue in 2015 showed large DECREASES last year (Balt 6%, DC at 18.6%). At the same time, the rates are fairly static across the country.

The reason we can't all go there together is that your version/experience of reality from those years isn't the same for people who are different from you. Blacks, Gays, and many women have no desire to return to the so-called "family-centric" past because those days weren't good for them. On the flip side, I have no desire for a move to days where the experience for Christian, white males begins to resemble the minority experience from the past. Call that enlightened self interest, but I don't want to be the target of retribution for things in which I had no say or part.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

OK that's GREAT! Now answer this...how many others do that? Of course no one can know the exact number but my point is, there are few families who do this anymore...

No I don't need to adapt to "the new world" where people have no idea of what gender they are, or influence their children in kindergarten that they are really not a boy if they feel they are a girl...I don't have to adapt to African Americans claiming all white people should give them their houses in atonement for slavery...This whole world is going backwards and people like you encouraging others to embrace and accept this "new world" rather than trying to right the wrongs being committed, are the biggest problem there is...

The relative disappearance of family dinners should not be cited as a reason this country is getting worse. Sure, in the so-called "good old days" families enjoyed eating together, but back then only one parent was employed or both parents had the same work hours and kids had nothing better to do outside the house. Family dinners have steadily declined due to work, school, and activity schedule conflicts that did not exist when my mom was a kid. What bothers me is people just coexist during meals, not taking their time together seriously. That is what families need to get back to: the true meaning of "together time." It does not matter if they all eat together or not; what matters is their personal interactions when they get those opportunities. If you eat with family, talk with family, not your friends on Facebook.

Everyone needs to adapt to the "new world." You had no choice but to adapt to seeing black and white people in the same public restrooms, bilingual signs everywhere, and more as demographics and people's attitudes toward racial minorities evolved. You don't have to like the changes - that is strictly your opinion - but you must adapt because they aren't going away. Nobody is forcing you to like changes you think are stupid or illogical. Accepting the new world is not supposed to be easy. Neither is opening your mind to big changes in how society operates. However, adapting to the new world is not a choice and you only hurt yourself by not trying.

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OK that's GREAT! Now answer this...how many others do that? Of course no one can know the exact number but my point is, there are few families who do this anymore...

No I don't need to adapt to "the new world" where people have no idea of what gender they are, or influence their children in kindergarten that they are really not a boy if they feel they are a girl...I don't have to adapt to African Americans claiming all white people should give them their houses in atonement for slavery...This whole world is going backwards and people like you encouraging others to embrace and accept this "new world" rather than trying to right the wrongs being committed, are the biggest problem there is...

The relative disappearance of family dinners should not be cited as a reason this country is getting worse. Sure, in the so-called "good old days" families enjoyed eating together, but back then only one parent was employed or both parents had the same work hours and kids had nothing better to do outside the house. Family dinners have steadily declined due to work, school, and activity schedule conflicts that did not exist when my mom was a kid. What bothers me is people just coexist during meals, not taking their time together seriously. That is what families need to get back to: the true meaning of "together time." It does not matter if they all eat together or not; what matters is their personal interactions when they get those opportunities. If you eat with family, talk with family, not your friends on Facebook.

Everyone needs to adapt to the "new world." You had no choice but to adapt to seeing black and white people in the same public restrooms, bilingual signs everywhere, and more as demographics and people's attitudes toward racial minorities evolved. You don't have to like the changes - that is strictly your opinion - but you must adapt because they aren't going away. Nobody is forcing you to like changes you think are stupid or illogical. Accepting the new world is not supposed to be easy. Neither is opening your mind to big changes in how society operates. However, adapting to the new world is not a choice and you only hurt yourself by not trying.

The New world?

Who is building this new world and why didn't I get a say in it?

Why do i have to accept someone else's idea of normal?
What is wrong with being a traditionalist?

I don't think I have to accept the fact that everyone is tweeting and instagramming and eating in front of the TVs and spending less time with family and more time with hoodlums...
I won't mind fighting this idea that life is what it is and we should all just accept it as it lies
I like raising my kids to value family and to question fads and trends. And we still do dinner time with no cell phones and no TVs.


The new world lol psssh

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OK that's GREAT! Now answer this...how many others do that? Of course no one can know the exact number but my point is, there are few families who do this anymore...

No I don't need to adapt to "the new world" where people have no idea of what gender they are, or influence their children in kindergarten that they are really not a boy if they feel they are a girl...I don't have to adapt to African Americans claiming all white people should give them their houses in atonement for slavery...This whole world is going backwards and people like you encouraging others to embrace and accept this "new world" rather than trying to right the wrongs being committed, are the biggest problem there is...

The relative disappearance of family dinners should not be cited as a reason this country is getting worse. Sure, in the so-called "good old days" families enjoyed eating together, but back then only one parent was employed or both parents had the same work hours and kids had nothing better to do outside the house. Family dinners have steadily declined due to work, school, and activity schedule conflicts that did not exist when my mom was a kid. What bothers me is people just coexist during meals, not taking their time together seriously. That is what families need to get back to: the true meaning of "together time." It does not matter if they all eat together or not; what matters is their personal interactions when they get those opportunities. If you eat with family, talk with family, not your friends on Facebook.

Everyone needs to adapt to the "new world." You had no choice but to adapt to seeing black and white people in the same public restrooms, bilingual signs everywhere, and more as demographics and people's attitudes toward racial minorities evolved. You don't have to like the changes - that is strictly your opinion - but you must adapt because they aren't going away. Nobody is forcing you to like changes you think are stupid or illogical. Accepting the new world is not supposed to be easy. Neither is opening your mind to big changes in how society operates. However, adapting to the new world is not a choice and you only hurt yourself by not trying.

I have no problem with your second paragraph...If you had read all my posts you would have seen that...But NO I do not have to adapt to the new world...I have no problems with people of any race, I have no problems with gay people either...

Your first paragraph just amazes me, you took one snippet out of many posts and made it appear as if I am blaming lack of family time as my entire stance on this topic...

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I have been watching this tread since JIB's first post.  I have to say that the lurking has been enlightening for me.  I have been triggered to respond previously but my "advanced" age and experience has allowed me to refrain up until now.  

My observation for what little it is worth as a member of the over 50 crowd, flsprtsgod or do you prefer your formal title of Florida Sports God?  Oops I digress.  I was once like you, exactly like you.  My arrogance was only exceeded by my ignorance.  

You seem to confuse nostalgia with genuine concern.  I will freely admit as will JIB, WB and most everyone that grew up that time that we wish we could go back to a time when we had no clue.  That is nostalgia and everyone regardless of circumstances experiences it as they get older.  The concerns JIB posted and WB concurred with seem to be lost upon you.  Perhaps I can bridge the gap.  

I grew up in a time where gun racks with actual guns hanging in them in and OMG they were loaded was no big concern.  Can you believe that I got into actual fist a cuffs with other people that had loaded guns in their pick up trucks as well and it never occurred to us to use them?  Win or lose?  What happened that now the first response is to pull a piece and shoot someone over every disagreement?  That is concern.  Something has changed along the way, human life is no longer valued where it once was.  This is a concern, at least to me it is.  

As we evolve, we seem to devolve.  That is the overall concern that I think JIB is trying to convey.

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

And an opposing view:  http://time.com/4607059/murder-rate-incr...ties-2016/

From the article:

The trend lines in the report run counter to some of the most dire warnings aired during the presidential election. As a candidate, Donald Trump spoke out against what he characterized as record levels of crime in urban areas. While the murder rate has increased, overall crime across the U.S. is near all-time lows. The report’s authors note that “concerns about a national crime wave are still premature, but these trends suggest a need to understand how and why murder is increasing in some cities.”  

I stand by my small world anecdote.  I also agree 100% with "if it bleeds it leads" perspective.  The major media outlets lost all credibility when it became a for profit institution.

In response to your PS, why is it if someone suggests that they would like to see the country return to a simpler time where life revolved around the family unit that it is automatically assumed tat hthe black community is not included in that desire?  Why can't we all go there together as equals?

I have yet to see anyone say anything remotely close to this...Now you are arguing just to argue...Copycat is correct, you seem to be confusing nostalgia with concerns for the future based on events that have been illustrated, such as increasing violence, calls for killing cops, black only college graduations, hate groups springing up all over et.al...

---

It gets better and better. Perhaps you shouldn't call me arrogant and ignorant and then turn around and relate an anecdote that's demonstrably wrong? You guys clearly fall into point 3 of this article on the crime rate. I know, I know, it's actually data, the bane of this group, but it still makes the point that things weren't as good as you remember and they aren't a bad as you think they are now. You've fallen for the same trap you accuse others of, of thinking you know the world based on your small window into it.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...n-the-u-s/

3 Public perceptions about crime in the U.S. often don’t align with the data. Opinion surveys regularly find that Americans believe crime is up, even when the data show it is down. In 21 Gallup surveys conducted since 1989, a majority of Americans said there was more crime in the U.S.compared with the year before, despite the generally downward trend in both violent and property crime rates during much of that period."

So yeah, the first option isn't to pull a gun over every disagreement, but for some reason you think it is. Now...why would that be? If it bleeds it leads, that's why. Yes, we've had more political violence in the last 8 months, and we all know why. If the governments of these cities were doing their jobs then it would've been quelled already, but the powers that be in those areas stand to benefit from the actions of Antifa and the like and so they permit it.

And P.S., I grew up in a small Florida town where gun racks, pit bull dogs, and gator hunts and such were very common and I'm not anywhere near 20 years old any more, so you can ease up on the "how great the old life was" shtick. Because it was also a place where the diner still had nice bathrooms in the front and rotten ones out back, the barber shop still had a "whites only" sign propped up behind the waiting chairs and the 10 square blocks next to my high school were called "the Quarters." Yeah, life was pretty good for me, but I don't pretend that it was for everyone and that things aren't better for a lot of people now then they were then.

And an opposing view:  http://time.com/4607059/murder-rate-incr...ties-2016/

From the article:

The trend lines in the report run counter to some of the most dire warnings aired during the presidential election. As a candidate, Donald Trump spoke out against what he characterized as record levels of crime in urban areas. While the murder rate has increased, overall crime across the U.S. is near all-time lows. The report’s authors note that “concerns about a national crime wave are still premature, but these trends suggest a need to understand how and why murder is increasing in some cities.”  

I stand by my small world anecdote.  I also agree 100% with "if it bleeds it leads" perspective.  The major media outlets lost all credibility when it became a for profit institution.

In response to your PS, why is it if someone suggests that they would like to see the country return to a simpler time where life revolved around the family unit that it is automatically assumed tat hthe black community is not included in that desire?  Why can't we all go there together as equals?

I have yet to see anyone say anything remotely close to this...Now you are arguing just to argue...Copycat is correct, you seem to be confusing nostalgia with concerns for the future based on events that have been illustrated, such as increasing violence, calls for killing cops, black only college graduations, hate groups springing up all over et.al...

Well, Copycat is the one who said that, so maybe you should ask him?

As far as the rest of it, violence isn't increasing (as I showed), calls for killing cops aren't a new thing (check your 60s radical playbook for that one), Black Only Graduation is an urban legend, and the hate groups "springing up" all over have been active for over 100 years. Basically things are the same or better than they've ever been except for a few specific geographic areas. I know it's hard for you guys to accept it, but the kids of today aren't any worse than you were at that age, they're just different (and in some ways much better!) than you.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I have yet to see anyone say anything remotely close to this...Now you are arguing just to argue...Copycat is correct, you seem to be confusing nostalgia with concerns for the future based on events that have been illustrated, such as increasing violence, calls for killing cops, black only college graduations, hate groups springing up all over et.al...

Well, Copycat is the one who said that, so maybe you should ask him?

As far as the rest of it, violence isn't increasing (as I showed), calls for killing cops aren't a new thing (check your 60s radical playbook for that one), Black Only Graduation is an urban legend, and the hate groups "springing up" all over have been active for over 100 years. Basically things are the same or better than they've ever been except for a few specific geographic areas. I know it's hard for you guys to accept it, but the kids of today aren't any  worse than you were at that age, they're just different  (and in some ways much better!) than you.

But but but.... FAMILY DINNERS! I know one young family that doesn't eat at the dinner table! I saw a young family at a restaurant on their phones! That means they all do it..... EVERYWHERE!

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Well, Copycat is the one who said that, so maybe you should ask him?

As far as the rest of it, violence isn't increasing (as I showed), calls for killing cops aren't a new thing (check your 60s radical playbook for that one), Black Only Graduation is an urban legend, and the hate groups "springing up" all over have been active for over 100 years. Basically things are the same or better than they've ever been except for a few specific geographic areas. I know it's hard for you guys to accept it, but the kids of today aren't any  worse than you were at that age, they're just different  (and in some ways much better!) than you.

But but but.... FAMILY DINNERS! I know one young family that doesn't eat at the dinner table! I saw a young family at a restaurant on their phones! That means they all do it..... EVERYWHERE!

GUN RACKS!

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I have yet to see anyone say anything remotely close to this...Now you are arguing just to argue...Copycat is correct, you seem to be confusing nostalgia with concerns for the future based on events that have been illustrated, such as increasing violence, calls for killing cops, black only college graduations, hate groups springing up all over et.al...

Well, Copycat is the one who said that, so maybe you should ask him?

As far as the rest of it, violence isn't increasing (as I showed), calls for killing cops aren't a new thing (check your 60s radical playbook for that one), Black Only Graduation is an urban legend, and the hate groups "springing up" all over have been active for over 100 years. Basically things are the same or better than they've ever been except for a few specific geographic areas. I know it's hard for you guys to accept it, but the kids of today aren't any  worse than you were at that age, they're just different  (and in some ways much better!) than you.

You proved nothing other than you argue just to argue...from the 60's until very recently, the call to kill cops had become nearly non existent, especially on national tv and by celebrities...Hate groups have increased, violence has increased, rioting has increased..Those things had become few and far between until very recently...They didn't become non existent, but they sure did slow down...Now it's almost a daily thing... Rioting and looting is now called protesting, hate speeches are now covered by the first amendment including people who call for the assassination of the POTUS...I don't know if you have had your head stuck in the sand or what planet you are living on but ours has most certainly become more violent

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