The myth about Grier having a weak arm is kinda funny.   Here is a play from this weekend where he throws it 43 yards on a line when pressured and getting drilled as soon as he releases the ball.   He makes those throws on the regular and usually hits them in stride.  He can have enough zip on the ball in short passes as well when needed.  To say what ever team drafts him will have to scheme around his weak arm strenth is laughable.  Sounds like you have been on to much twitter.  

At 3:00

https://youtu.be/b0wFsJQyrzc?t=190


Just watched every pass again from his last game and seen him throw off his back foot twice.  One he was back peddling to elude the defenders and the other there was a defender in his face and he got drilled as he threw and it was a strike for a TD.  Will you post some of these throws off the back foot when he isnt pressured?  So his limitations are the myth of a weak arm, he throws off his back foot, and he is maxed out as a player?  Come on man I thought you would come with some facts and something better than that

A predictable response from you. Just to preface this I find it hilarious that you are being so defensive about a player I've already posted multiple times about loving. Being critical about players strengths and weaknesses is important, unfortunately you tend to just set up camp on a player and refuse to acknowledge the limitations to their play (that's how you end up thinking Tebow and Manziel would be good QBs) 

I don't think he has a weak arm, he has an average arm, which is why I said he has an average arm. Having an average arm means there are limitations as to where you can put the ball and the windows you can hit. So you adjust the offense around that. 
That throw you linked is a nice throw but not some supreme showing of velocity of either, nice tight spiral sure. He floats too many passes in situations where he shouldn't, i.e too often when he's throwing quick outs or to the perimeter the ball doesn't get there quick enough , his deep balls are generally tear drops (which have their own benefit/risk) and he doesn't show enough velocity on tight window throws.  His accuracy and placement are very good , his arm strength can be lacking. 

Again, as said above, he can play in the NFL with it and do well, but there are limitations to it. That's not to say he doesn't have some incredible throws or anything, it's just the reality of him as player. Andy Daltons arm is around average but he's capable of incredible throws too, he just doesn't show that velocity that often.  

Yeah he throws off his back foot too often, in both pressured and non pressured situations. A lot of his picks come from that where he'll throw off his back foot instead of just taking the sack, or he'll just be sloppy and lean back regardless. Definitely fixable but it's a limitation to his play atm.  

I'm going to be doing a full write up of Grier in the next two weeks so I'll show all my work on him and detail my points with evidence. 

Why don't you do one as well and we can compare and contrast?

Tebow was a better QB than we have ever had outside of Brunell and Manziel being a bust had nothing to do with his talents he was just a drug addict.  I dont have time to do a big wright up on a player nor am i the best writer.  Ill just wait for you to do yours and check it out.  But to say Daltons arm is average and then say Griers is average, Griers arm is much bettter than Daltons

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Been watching him for 2 seasons as a WVU fan. This kid has been slinging the ball down field with accuracy. He probably has more deep touchdown passes to Sills than attempted deep passes by Bortles in the past 2 years.

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Been watching him for 2 seasons as a WVU fan. This kid has been slinging the ball down field with accuracy. He probably has more deep touchdown passes to Sills than attempted deep passes by Bortles in the past 2 years.

What do you think about Gary Jennings Jr as a prospect?

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I'd love to have Sills or Jennings. Jennings looked hot last game, getting separation from defenders on the deep ball. And Grier was placing the ball perfectly in stride.

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A predictable response from you. Just to preface this I find it hilarious that you are being so defensive about a player I've already posted multiple times about loving. Being critical about players strengths and weaknesses is important, unfortunately you tend to just set up camp on a player and refuse to acknowledge the limitations to their play (that's how you end up thinking Tebow and Manziel would be good QBs) 

I don't think he has a weak arm, he has an average arm, which is why I said he has an average arm. Having an average arm means there are limitations as to where you can put the ball and the windows you can hit. So you adjust the offense around that. 
That throw you linked is a nice throw but not some supreme showing of velocity of either, nice tight spiral sure. He floats too many passes in situations where he shouldn't, i.e too often when he's throwing quick outs or to the perimeter the ball doesn't get there quick enough , his deep balls are generally tear drops (which have their own benefit/risk) and he doesn't show enough velocity on tight window throws.  His accuracy and placement are very good , his arm strength can be lacking. 

Again, as said above, he can play in the NFL with it and do well, but there are limitations to it. That's not to say he doesn't have some incredible throws or anything, it's just the reality of him as player. Andy Daltons arm is around average but he's capable of incredible throws too, he just doesn't show that velocity that often.  

Yeah he throws off his back foot too often, in both pressured and non pressured situations. A lot of his picks come from that where he'll throw off his back foot instead of just taking the sack, or he'll just be sloppy and lean back regardless. Definitely fixable but it's a limitation to his play atm.  

I'm going to be doing a full write up of Grier in the next two weeks so I'll show all my work on him and detail my points with evidence. 

Why don't you do one as well and we can compare and contrast?

Tebow was a better QB than we have ever had outside of Brunell and Manziel being a bust had nothing to do with his talents he was just a drug addict.  I dont have time to do a big wright up on a player nor am i the best writer.  Ill just wait for you to do yours and check it out.  But to say Daltons arm is average and then say Griers is average, Griers arm is much bettter than Daltons

Tebow was a terrible QB.. Manziel was a very good college QB who was never going to translate. You didn't see their limitations because you put on blinders for players you like and die on those hills.

If you aren't willing to show your work that's fine. Just don't remand other people you plays when you aren't going to do it yourself.   

And yeah I disagree. When you look at the other QBs in the league it's pretty obvious.  

Here's a question for you, what do you think Griers weaknesses and limitations are?

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Been watching him for 2 seasons as a WVU fan. This kid has been slinging the ball down field with accuracy. He probably has more deep touchdown passes to Sills than attempted deep passes by Bortles in the past 2 years.

Yeah he's a considerable upgrade to Blake

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Tebow was a better QB than we have ever had outside of Brunell and Manziel being a bust had nothing to do with his talents he was just a drug addict.  I dont have time to do a big wright up on a player nor am i the best writer.  Ill just wait for you to do yours and check it out.  But to say Daltons arm is average and then say Griers is average, Griers arm is much bettter than Daltons

Tebow was a terrible QB.. Manziel was a very good college QB who was never going to translate. You didn't see their limitations because you put on blinders for players you like and die on those hills.

If you aren't willing to show your work that's fine. Just don't remand other people you plays when you aren't going to do it yourself.   

And yeah I disagree. When you look at the other QBs in the league it's pretty obvious.  

Here's a question for you, what do you think Griers weaknesses and limitations are?

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Been watching him for 2 seasons as a WVU fan. This kid has been slinging the ball down field with accuracy. He probably has more deep touchdown passes to Sills than attempted deep passes by Bortles in the past 2 years.

Yeah he's a considerable upgrade to Blake

I have already stated above that sometimes he tries to do to much when nothing is there when he should just take the sack or throw it away.  Another question mark is how will he handle better NFL defenses because most of the defenses he plays are trash.  He is also a much better runner with the football than his stats indicate, he can scramble and run when he needs to but he rarely ever does it which in certain situations it can be useful if used correctly.   Can he run a NFL style offense under center?  His limitations though are unknown, its kind of like you saying how high a guys ceiling is.  When Brees came out would you of said his ceiling was NFL all time leading passer?  Would you of said Brady's was the best QB ever?  Its just fiction where one has no clue unless they are psychic and can read the future.

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Tebow was a terrible QB.. Manziel was a very good college QB who was never going to translate. You didn't see their limitations because you put on blinders for players you like and die on those hills.

If you aren't willing to show your work that's fine. Just don't remand other people you plays when you aren't going to do it yourself.   

And yeah I disagree. When you look at the other QBs in the league it's pretty obvious.  

Here's a question for you, what do you think Griers weaknesses and limitations are?

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Yeah he's a considerable upgrade to Blake

I have already stated above that sometimes he tries to do to much when nothing is there when he should just take the sack or throw it away.  Another question mark is how will he handle better NFL defenses because most of the defenses he plays are trash.  He is also a much better runner with the football than his stats indicate, he can scramble and run when he needs to but he rarely ever does it which in certain situations it can be useful if used correctly.   Can he run a NFL style offense under center?  His limitations though are unknown, its kind of like you saying how high a guys ceiling is.  When Brees came out would you of said his ceiling was NFL all time leading passer?  Would you of said Brady's was the best QB ever?  Its just fiction where one has no clue unless they are psychic and can read the future.

Limitations are based on what we have seen from them so far. It doesn't take a genius for someone to watch Cody Kessler in college and say his arm will be a limitation in the NFL, that's just a reality of who is he is as a player, until he shows you it isn't.  

In the same way you would have said Lamar Jacksons accuracy is a limitation to his game, whether you are incorrect or correct that's something you would have noted based on watching him in college. So don't pretend that critiquing a player by noting their limitations is wrong.  

Using outliers as evidence is backwards logic. You are right in saying nobody knows for certain how good players can be, which is partly why evaluating players is so much fun for me. 

Remember , just because nobody knows for certain doesn't mean you can't give a take on how good or bad you think they will be. I mean, you do it all the time with players , you don't know for certain, but you give a take based on what you see. Same as me and same as anyone who is interested in the draft. 

It's a given.

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Flgatorsandjags: Josh Allen has the highest ceiling in the draft.

Also flgatorsandjags : talking about someones ceiling is dumb , nobody knows. Did anyone think Brees ceiling was that high??? No, thought so

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Tebow was a terrible QB.. Manziel was a very good college QB who was never going to translate. You didn't see their limitations because you put on blinders for players you like and die on those hills.

If you aren't willing to show your work that's fine. Just don't remand other people you plays when you aren't going to do it yourself.   

And yeah I disagree. When you look at the other QBs in the league it's pretty obvious.  

Here's a question for you, what do you think Griers weaknesses and limitations are?

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Yeah he's a considerable upgrade to Blake

I have already stated above that sometimes he tries to do to much when nothing is there when he should just take the sack or throw it away.  Another question mark is how will he handle better NFL defenses because most of the defenses he plays are trash.  He is also a much better runner with the football than his stats indicate, he can scramble and run when he needs to but he rarely ever does it which in certain situations it can be useful if used correctly.   Can he run a NFL style offense under center?  His limitations though are unknown, its kind of like you saying how high a guys ceiling is.  When Brees came out would you of said his ceiling was NFL all time leading passer?  Would you of said Brady's was the best QB ever?  Its just fiction where one has no clue unless they are psychic and can read the future.

I’m a fan of Grier. Much much more than I was a fan of Rudolph. flgatorsandjags you may have finally got one right lol.

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

Flgatorsandjags: Josh Allen has the highest ceiling in the draft.
                           
Also flgatorsandjags : talking about someones ceiling is dumb , nobody knows. Did anyone think Brees ceiling was that high??? No, thought so

I can play along.  Grier's ceiling is Brees

Floor is Alex Smith

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I have already stated above that sometimes he tries to do to much when nothing is there when he should just take the sack or throw it away.  Another question mark is how will he handle better NFL defenses because most of the defenses he plays are trash.  He is also a much better runner with the football than his stats indicate, he can scramble and run when he needs to but he rarely ever does it which in certain situations it can be useful if used correctly.   Can he run a NFL style offense under center?  His limitations though are unknown, its kind of like you saying how high a guys ceiling is.  When Brees came out would you of said his ceiling was NFL all time leading passer?  Would you of said Brady's was the best QB ever?  Its just fiction where one has no clue unless they are psychic and can read the future.

I’m a fan of Grier. Much much more than I was a fan of Rudolph. flgatorsandjags you may have finally got one right lol.

We will see about Rudolph when he gets his shot.  Might have to wait a while though depending on Big Ben. I'm guessing those 2 are similar since they were my 2 favorites the last couple years lol

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Flgatorsandjags: Josh Allen has the highest ceiling in the draft.
                           
Also flgatorsandjags : talking about someones ceiling is dumb , nobody knows. Did anyone think Brees ceiling was that high??? No, thought so

I can play along.  Grier's ceiling is Brees

Floor is Alex Smith

Nope that's dumb. Nobody has any idea how good or bad these guys can be. Cody Kessler could have had Mahomes arm strength, limitations were unknown as a prospect.

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I can play along.  Grier's ceiling is Brees

Floor is Alex Smith

Nope that's dumb. Nobody has any idea how good or bad these guys can be. Cody Kessler could have had Mahomes arm strength, limitations were unknown as a prospect.

But yeah, it's kinda dumb, agreed. Strengths and weaknesses are one thing, but to say how good a player can become/ ceiling is ......

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Nope that's dumb. Nobody has any idea how good or bad these guys can be. Cody Kessler could have had Mahomes arm strength, limitations were unknown as a prospect.

But yeah, it's kinda dumb, agreed. Strengths and weaknesses are one thing, but to say how good a player can become/ ceiling is ......

So you see your hypocrisy? Thats refreshing.

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There is a huge difference between limitations and traits so bad it is impossible to overcome.

Drew Brees is short. That is a limitation. He has obviously been able to overcome that limitation. Dan Marino was possibly the slowest person to ever play professional football. He was obviously able to overcome that limitation. Joe Montana had an average arm at best. He was obviously able to overcome that limitation. Ty Detmer was one of the most celebrated college QBs ever, Heisman winner, top 5 alltime yards passing, etc... but he was short, not a great arm, couldnt read defenses, etc... he was obviously never able to overcome his limitations.

I'm a fan of Grier and would like us to draft him. But the guy clearly has limitations. He doesnt have a huge arm. He doesnt have the elite physical size. He doesnt have great athleticism moving outside the pocket. He does fall back on his throws at times. All of those things can be limitations. If he had all of the ideal traits, he would be talked about as the #1 overall draft pick. Not a borderline first rounder. But just because he has limitations doesnt mean he can't overcome them by having great accuracy, great anticipation, an uncanny ability to read defenses, great pocket awareness, etc, etc...

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Scouting well is all that matters.  Draft philosophy is all fluff.

I'm a fan of Grier and would like us to draft him.  But the guy clearly has limitations.  He doesnt have a huge arm.  He doesnt have the elite physical size.  He doesnt have great athleticism moving outside the pocket.  He does fall back on his throws at times.  All of those things can be limitations.  If he had all of the ideal traits, he would be talked about as the #1 overall draft pick.  Not a borderline first rounder.  But just because he has limitations doesnt mean he can't overcome them by having great accuracy, great anticipation, an uncanny ability to read defenses, great pocket awareness, etc, etc...

I think we're seeing more and more of this in the NFL today though.
Guys don't need to be 6'4 and have a rocket arm.
Obviously some teams still like that style. But we're seeing more and more smaller guys have success when coaches can build an offense around them.

A guy can have all the "physical traits" and lack skill and playmaker ability. See: Russel, Jamarcus; Gabbert, Blaine; 
Hell... Blake is a big guy.... he's not good.
Baker is a "shorter" guy, he already looks better than Blake.

Time will tell with all these guys... but give me a guy with good accuracy and was a "winner" in college and a smart HC/OC.

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I'm a fan of Grier and would like us to draft him.  But the guy clearly has limitations.  He doesnt have a huge arm.  He doesnt have the elite physical size.  He doesnt have great athleticism moving outside the pocket.  He does fall back on his throws at times.  All of those things can be limitations.  If he had all of the ideal traits, he would be talked about as the #1 overall draft pick.  Not a borderline first rounder.  But just because he has limitations doesnt mean he can't overcome them by having great accuracy, great anticipation, an uncanny ability to read defenses, great pocket awareness, etc, etc...

I think we're seeing more and more of this in the NFL today though.
Guys don't need to be 6'4 and have a rocket arm.
Obviously some teams still like that style. But we're seeing more and more smaller guys have success when coaches can build an offense around them.

A guy can have all the "physical traits" and lack skill and playmaker ability. See: Russel, Jamarcus; Gabbert, Blaine; 
Hell... Blake is a big guy.... he's not good.
Baker is a "shorter" guy, he already looks better than Blake.

Time will tell with all these guys... but give me a guy with good accuracy and was a "winner" in college and a smart HC/OC.

Josh Allen was Bortles with 5 times the arm.  I'm sure Dave would of loved him.  Allen is gonna be good.  If Haskins and Herbert come out this class QB class is underrated imo.

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I think we're seeing more and more of this in the NFL today though.
Guys don't need to be 6'4 and have a rocket arm.
Obviously some teams still like that style. But we're seeing more and more smaller guys have success when coaches can build an offense around them.

A guy can have all the "physical traits" and lack skill and playmaker ability. See: Russel, Jamarcus; Gabbert, Blaine; 
Hell... Blake is a big guy.... he's not good.
Baker is a "shorter" guy, he already looks better than Blake.

Time will tell with all these guys... but give me a guy with good accuracy and was a "winner" in college and a smart HC/OC.

Josh Allen was Bortles with 5 times the arm.  I'm sure Dave would of loved him.  Allen is gonna be good.  If Haskins and Herbert come out this class QB class is underrated imo.

IDK man...
I'm still not sold on Allen.

Wasn't pre draft.
10 games into the season or whatever he's got... I'm not impressed.
Granted... his team around him is trash. And his coaches might not be top tier... but a big arm only gets you so far.
We'll see how he develops. No one will really know how good these guys are until year 3-4.

Not too long ago everyone was all about some Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota... now they don't really look all that great (especially as #1 and #2 overall)
Carr... shoot everyone was like "oh we should have got him" and then he had a real good year and everyone thought he was the next coming, then he got that massive contract and now behind a not so elite OL, he looks like average.

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There is a huge difference between limitations and traits so bad it is impossible to overcome.

Drew Brees is short.  That is a limitation.  He has obviously been able to overcome that limitation.  Dan Marino was possibly the slowest person to ever play professional football.  He was obviously able to overcome that limitation.  Joe Montana had an average arm at best.  He was obviously able to overcome that limitation.  Ty Detmer was one of the most celebrated college QBs ever, Heisman winner, top 5 alltime yards passing, etc... but he was short, not a great arm, couldnt read defenses, etc... he was obviously never able to overcome his limitations.

I'm a fan of Grier and would like us to draft him.  But the guy clearly has limitations.  He doesnt have a huge arm.  He doesnt have the elite physical size.  He doesnt have great athleticism moving outside the pocket.  He does fall back on his throws at times.  All of those things can be limitations.  If he had all of the ideal traits, he would be talked about as the #1 overall draft pick.  Not a borderline first rounder.  But just because he has limitations doesnt mean he can't overcome them by having great accuracy, great anticipation, an uncanny ability to read defenses, great pocket awareness, etc, etc...

Well said.

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Josh Allen was bad in high school, bad in community college, bad at Wyoming and now bad in the NFL, albeit as a rookie on a bad team.

At a certain point it's going to become apparent that he just isn't good, and has never been at any point in his career.

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Wait till Allen gets a couple weapons on the offense. I think he is going to be good. He needs a good deep threat

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Josh Allen was Bortles with 5 times the arm.  I'm sure Dave would of loved him.  Allen is gonna be good.  If Haskins and Herbert come out this class QB class is underrated imo.

IDK man...
I'm still not sold on Allen.

Wasn't pre draft.
10 games into the season or whatever he's got... I'm not impressed.
Granted... his team around him is trash. And his coaches might not be top tier... but a big arm only gets you so far.
We'll see how he develops. No one will really know how good these guys are until year 3-4.

Not too long ago everyone was all about some Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota... now they don't really look all that great (especially as #1 and #2 overall)
Carr... shoot everyone was like "oh we should have got him" and then he had a real good year and everyone thought he was the next coming, then he got that massive contract and now behind a not so elite OL, he looks like average.

Yeah, you never really know how one will be until he gets a chance and a couple years down the road.  A lot of factors come in to play with the success.  Do you think Mahomes would be the guy he is if we drafted him? He has Reid, one of the best WR votes, the 2nd best TE, a top 5 RB and a decent oline.  He would if been much better than Bortles but no where close to the QB he is today If we drafted him

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Wait till Allen gets a couple weapons on the offense.  I think he is going to be good.   He needs a good deep threat

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IDK man...
I'm still not sold on Allen.

Wasn't pre draft.
10 games into the season or whatever he's got... I'm not impressed.
Granted... his team around him is trash. And his coaches might not be top tier... but a big arm only gets you so far.
We'll see how he develops. No one will really know how good these guys are until year 3-4.

Not too long ago everyone was all about some Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota... now they don't really look all that great (especially as #1 and #2 overall)
Carr... shoot everyone was like "oh we should have got him" and then he had a real good year and everyone thought he was the next coming, then he got that massive contract and now behind a not so elite OL, he looks like average.

Yeah, you never really know how one will be until he gets a chance and a couple years down the road.  A lot of factors come in to play with the success.  Do you think Mahomes would be the guy he is if we drafted him? He has Reid, one of the best WR votes, the 2nd best TE, a top 5 RB and a decent oline.  He would if been much better than Bortles but no where close to the QB he is today If we drafted him

Preach on about Mahomes/Reid. I've been saying it since early this year.
Beware the Reid QB lol the man knows how to scheme em up (see Kevin Kolb, Jeff Garcia, Nick Foles)
But...
I think if Mahomes had come here he could have possibly been successful, but he would have started right away instead of sitting behind Alex Smith (which he says benefited him greatly).
And he certainly wouldn't have as many weapons. But he'd have a better defense. But he'd have way different stats.
I wonder what Reid could have done with a rookie Blake Bortles sitting for a year behind Smith.

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