(08-23-2019, 09:34 PM)3/4 Back Wrote: I think Bryan would have made a good OL, but it's probably too late to change.
Not really. Considering how we have no depth at OT, that's not a bad idea. J.R. Sweezy played Linebacker, DE and DT in college and was converted to a starting OG in the NFL. What have we got to lose? I would bench Bryan this year and prepare him to make the conversion to the O-Line in 2020. If that doesn't work, we can let him go, but he's certainly not grasping the DE/DT position.
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(08-23-2019, 08:12 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: (08-23-2019, 08:02 PM)Bullseye Wrote: Excellent.
As for Taylor starting, I could have sworn when Robinson started at LT, Ogbuehi started at RT. When Robinson left, Ogbuehi moved to LTand Taylor went in at RT.
If not, measure culpa.
Nevertheless, I thought Taylor played well....although if I got that wrong the rest of the analysis comes into question.
Taylor started, then Ogbuehi came in and got hurt, then they put Taylor back in after Ogbuehi got hurt being Foles was still out there.
Okay so I'm not totally crazy. At one point Taylor DID come in for CO.
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(08-23-2019, 09:42 AM)JackCity Wrote: Todd Wash is throwing out a lot of 3-4 looks...
I think this would be one advantage our defense would have over the 2017 group.
Without studying videos of old games and going purely off memory, what you saw with the defense over the past few years was what you got, Generally, you got a four man line, whether in a base defense or nickel. That was limited by personnel, because while Campbell, Ngakoue and Fowler all showed varying degrees of talent, none have the combination of talent and level diversity that Allen offers. Campbell can move between DE and DT quite well, but you wouldn't want him dropping into coverage very often. Ngakoue can rush the passer very well, but is largely an unknown quantity dropping into coverage and is average against the run. Fowler had level versatility in terms of being able to go back and forth between DE and OLB, inconsistent production and was iffy at best dropping into coverage.
With Allen's size/build, demonstrated ability to stop the run, drop effortlessly into coverage, and ability to rush the passer, he gives Wash and Capers the ability to offer myriad looks depending on the matchup and situation.
I think a base 4-3 alignment with Campbell at LDE and Allen at Sam gives the team nearly optimal stoutness against the run vs. a team like Tennessee, while a more prolific passing team would find that same alignment equally daunting, because then the offense will be forced into a protection mismatch. An odd front with Allen and Ngakoue as stand up OLBs also poses problems for offenses. If they spread the protection, it gives the down linemen like Campbell room to operate, mostly against single blocking. It also opens up greater possibilities for inside blitzes. If not, then someone who has no business doing so like a RB will be forced to stay in to try and block Ngakoue or Allen, which is not viable.
This will help the coaches early on in the season and later in the schedule. Early in the schedule, the Jaguars defense will offer many unknown wrinkles, catching many teams off guard. Later, the versatility will make tendencies harder to identify.
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08-24-2019, 09:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019, 01:10 PM by Bullseye.)
(08-23-2019, 08:08 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: I think the thing that bothered me most about Foles is it didn't look like he could read defense and was just going to Dede every time it wasn't a checkdown or designed pass to 2.4nette.
Can't just throw it to Dede no matter what, dude needs to read the defense and throw to the guy that's going to come open. If he can't do that then it was one of the worst free agent signings the team's ever made.
To me, the passing game struggles seemed to indicate major problems at receiver and TE, as opposed to him not being able to read a defense. I'm thinking guys weren't separating, outside of Wesbrook.
He likes throwing to the TE, yet there were very few passes to the TE that I recall. It seems that some of those passes that went to Westbrook would have otherwise gone to a TE (someone else floated that in another thread and it was a good point, but I can't recall who and I don't want to take credit for that observation).
Foles' ability to read a defense is the least of my concerns, especially against a typically vanilla preseason defense, especially when Foles has obliterated a belicheck schemed defense in the Super Bowl.
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08-24-2019, 09:44 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019, 09:45 AM by SeldomRite.)
(08-24-2019, 09:11 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: (08-24-2019, 08:29 AM)JaguarJosh05 Wrote: ...
In all seriousness, Foles' INT was the product of Wester getting beat off the ball and it was just a fling to avoid the sack and Dede didn't work back to the ball.
Foles indeed was pressured from Wester's guy even though Wester held him, LOL.
The other factor was the fact that Westbrook and the CB got tangled up when Westbrook tried to make his cut to the outside.
For a moment it did look like #12 was going to come back toward the L.O.S. (this is when Foles tried to flick it off balance that direction) however Westbrook ultimately tried to finish his intended route which was toward the sideline.
It wasn't really so bad. Just flukey. Should have thrown it away, but you can see why he thought Westbrook was coming back for a second there.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/dUYgcfUZqJRAHn4QJt/giphy.gif)
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/Wp78DFNyKjjNAaDFmf/giphy.gif)
He was staring him down the whole way, wasn't under real pressure, and the guy he was staring down was blanketed.
That anyone is trying to defend the defend the decision is ridiculous. He's got to be much better in the regular season to make the signing worthwhile. The sad thing is I could easily see another 2017 type season where the defense carries the team and the coaching staff at critical moments feels like it needs to hide the QB like Marrone did against the Patriots in 2017.
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(08-24-2019, 09:01 AM)Bullseye Wrote: (08-23-2019, 09:42 AM)JackCity Wrote: Todd Wash is throwing out a lot of 3-4 looks...
I think this would be one advantage our defense would have over the 2017 group.
Without studying videos of old games and going purely off memory, what you saw with the defense over the past few years was what you got, Generally, you got a four man line, whether in a base defense or nickel. That was limited by personnel, because while Campbell, Ngakoue and Fowler all showed varying degrees of talent, none have the combination of talent and level diversity that Allen offers. Campbell can move between DE and DT quite well, but you wouldn't want him dropping into coverage very often. Ngakoue can rush the passer very well, but is largely an unknown quantity dropping into coverage and is average against the run. Fowler had level versatility in terms of being able to go back and forth between DE and OLB, inconsistent production and was iffy at best dropping into coverage.
With Allen's size/build, demonstrated ability to stop the run, drop effortlessly into coverage, and ability to rush the passer, he gives Wash and Capers the ability to offer myriad looks depending on the matchup and situation.
I think a base 4-3 alignment with Campbell at LDE and Allen at Sam gives the team nearly optimal stoutness against the run vs. a team like Tennessee, while a more prolific passing team would find that same alignment equally daunting, because then the offense will be forced into a protection mismatch. An odd front with Allen and Ngakoue as stand up OLBs also poses problems for offenses. If they spread the protection, it gives the down linemen like Campbell room to operate, mostly against single blocking. It also opens up greater possibilities for inside blitzes. If not, then someone who has no business doing so like a RB will be forced to stay in to try and block Ngakoue or Allen, which is not viable.
This will help the coaches early on in the season and later in the schedule. Early in the schedule, the Jaguars defense will offer many unknown wrinkles, catching many teams off guard. Later, the versatility will make tendencies harder to identify.
Agree completely.
People tend to overrate the difference between how 3-4s and 4-3s operate. When you have guys like Calais who is equally good at end/3 tech/and 3-4 5 tech , Allen who has rare on ball and off ball skills + Dareus (although not what he used to be athletically) is still more than capable of playing multiple alignments and occupying two blockers, it opens up a world of possibilities. And then Yannick is quite simply one of the best 1v1 pass rushers in the NFL on top of all that.
We ran some really nice Dline stunts last year and 2017 with Wash, now we can run more exotic Blitzs and make offensive line units REALLY have to be on their toes with who's coming from where.
Hopefully we see Wash keep at this all year, im sure we'll get bitten by being over Aggressive on some plays but overall I much prefer too much aggression than too little which I feel Wash can be prone to leaning into a bit
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(08-24-2019, 09:44 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: (08-24-2019, 09:11 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: Foles indeed was pressured from Wester's guy even though Wester held him, LOL.
The other factor was the fact that Westbrook and the CB got tangled up when Westbrook tried to make his cut to the outside.
For a moment it did look like #12 was going to come back toward the L.O.S. (this is when Foles tried to flick it off balance that direction) however Westbrook ultimately tried to finish his intended route which was toward the sideline.
It wasn't really so bad. Just flukey. Should have thrown it away, but you can see why he thought Westbrook was coming back for a second there.
He was staring him down the whole way, wasn't under real pressure, and the guy he was staring down was blanketed.
That anyone is trying to defend the defend the decision is ridiculous. He's got to be much better in the regular season to make the signing worthwhile. The sad thing is I could easily see another 2017 type season where the defense carries the team and the coaching staff at critical moments feels like it needs to hide the QB like Marrone did against the Patriots in 2017.
LOL
I'm not really seeing anyone defending anything.
I definitely see you irrationally overreacting to the first half of a preseason game, though.
BTW, when I zoom in on Foles, he looks left initially to see how tight the coverage is on O'Shaugnessy. Then that little pump fake was actually him trying to hit Conley on the underneath crosser, but the DL got his hands up so he pulled it down and flicked it poorly to Westbrook when he should have taken off or chucked it OB. He did not stare him down in the slightest.
(08-24-2019, 09:51 AM)JackCity Wrote: (08-24-2019, 09:01 AM)Bullseye Wrote: I think this would be one advantage our defense would have over the 2017 group.
Without studying videos of old games and going purely off memory, what you saw with the defense over the past few years was what you got, Generally, you got a four man line, whether in a base defense or nickel. That was limited by personnel, because while Campbell, Ngakoue and Fowler all showed varying degrees of talent, none have the combination of talent and level diversity that Allen offers. Campbell can move between DE and DT quite well, but you wouldn't want him dropping into coverage very often. Ngakoue can rush the passer very well, but is largely an unknown quantity dropping into coverage and is average against the run. Fowler had level versatility in terms of being able to go back and forth between DE and OLB, inconsistent production and was iffy at best dropping into coverage.
With Allen's size/build, demonstrated ability to stop the run, drop effortlessly into coverage, and ability to rush the passer, he gives Wash and Capers the ability to offer myriad looks depending on the matchup and situation.
I think a base 4-3 alignment with Campbell at LDE and Allen at Sam gives the team nearly optimal stoutness against the run vs. a team like Tennessee, while a more prolific passing team would find that same alignment equally daunting, because then the offense will be forced into a protection mismatch. An odd front with Allen and Ngakoue as stand up OLBs also poses problems for offenses. If they spread the protection, it gives the down linemen like Campbell room to operate, mostly against single blocking. It also opens up greater possibilities for inside blitzes. If not, then someone who has no business doing so like a RB will be forced to stay in to try and block Ngakoue or Allen, which is not viable.
This will help the coaches early on in the season and later in the schedule. Early in the schedule, the Jaguars defense will offer many unknown wrinkles, catching many teams off guard. Later, the versatility will make tendencies harder to identify.
Agree completely.
People tend to overrate the difference between how 3-4s and 4-3s operate. When you have guys like Calais who is equally good at end/3 tech/and 3-4 5 tech , Allen who has rare on ball and off ball skills + Dareus (although not what he used to be athletically) is still more than capable of playing multiple alignments and occupying two blockers, it opens up a world of possibilities. And then Yannick is quite simply one of the best 1v1 pass rushers in the NFL on top of all that.
We ran some really nice Dline stunts last year and 2017 with Wash, now we can run more exotic Blitzs and make offensive line units REALLY have to be on their toes with who's coming from where.
Hopefully we see Wash keep at this all year, im sure we'll get bitten by being over Aggressive on some plays but overall I much prefer too much aggression than too little which I feel Wash can be prone to leaning into a bit
I am with you guys 100% here, and it bodes well for both aspects of our defense (run/pass).
Throwing Capers into this mix should only help the unit's efficiency IMO.
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(08-24-2019, 10:06 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: (08-24-2019, 09:44 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: He was staring him down the whole way, wasn't under real pressure, and the guy he was staring down was blanketed.
That anyone is trying to defend the defend the decision is ridiculous. He's got to be much better in the regular season to make the signing worthwhile. The sad thing is I could easily see another 2017 type season where the defense carries the team and the coaching staff at critical moments feels like it needs to hide the QB like Marrone did against the Patriots in 2017.
LOL
I'm not really seeing anyone defending anything.
I definitely see you irrationally overreacting to the first half of a preseason game, though.
(08-24-2019, 09:51 AM)JackCity Wrote: Agree completely.
People tend to overrate the difference between how 3-4s and 4-3s operate. When you have guys like Calais who is equally good at end/3 tech/and 3-4 5 tech , Allen who has rare on ball and off ball skills + Dareus (although not what he used to be athletically) is still more than capable of playing multiple alignments and occupying two blockers, it opens up a world of possibilities. And then Yannick is quite simply one of the best 1v1 pass rushers in the NFL on top of all that.
We ran some really nice Dline stunts last year and 2017 with Wash, now we can run more exotic Blitzs and make offensive line units REALLY have to be on their toes with who's coming from where.
Hopefully we see Wash keep at this all year, im sure we'll get bitten by being over Aggressive on some plays but overall I much prefer too much aggression than too little which I feel Wash can be prone to leaning into a bit
I am with you guys 100% here, and it bodes well for both aspects of our defense (run/pass).
Throwing Capers into this mix should only help the unit's efficiency IMO.
Calling it flukey rather than a terrible decision sounds like defending to me, but if saying bad play won't cut it is overreacting then I'm overreacting. We'll see how it goes in the regular season.
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(08-24-2019, 10:16 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: (08-24-2019, 10:06 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: LOL
I'm not really seeing anyone defending anything.
I definitely see you irrationally overreacting to the first half of a preseason game, though.
I am with you guys 100% here, and it bodes well for both aspects of our defense (run/pass).
Throwing Capers into this mix should only help the unit's efficiency IMO.
Calling it flukey rather than a terrible decision sounds like defending to me, but if saying bad play won't cut it is overreacting then I'm overreacting. We'll see how it goes in the regular season. LOL
He also didn't stare him down. Check the edit above.
I actually called it a bad decision in this thread, but go on with this "defending 10 passes in the preseason narrative."
It's pure gold.
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(08-24-2019, 10:06 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: (08-24-2019, 09:44 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: He was staring him down the whole way, wasn't under real pressure, and the guy he was staring down was blanketed.
That anyone is trying to defend the defend the decision is ridiculous. He's got to be much better in the regular season to make the signing worthwhile. The sad thing is I could easily see another 2017 type season where the defense carries the team and the coaching staff at critical moments feels like it needs to hide the QB like Marrone did against the Patriots in 2017.
LOL
I'm not really seeing anyone defending anything.
I definitely see you irrationally overreacting to the first half of a preseason game, though.
BTW, when I zoom in on Foles, he looks left initially to see how tight the coverage is on O'Shaugnessy. Then that little pump fake was actually him trying to hit Conley on the underneath crosser, but the DL got his hands up so he pulled it down and flicked it poorly to Westbrook when he should have taken off or chucked it OB. He did not stare him down in the slightest.
(08-24-2019, 09:51 AM)JackCity Wrote: Agree completely.
People tend to overrate the difference between how 3-4s and 4-3s operate. When you have guys like Calais who is equally good at end/3 tech/and 3-4 5 tech , Allen who has rare on ball and off ball skills + Dareus (although not what he used to be athletically) is still more than capable of playing multiple alignments and occupying two blockers, it opens up a world of possibilities. And then Yannick is quite simply one of the best 1v1 pass rushers in the NFL on top of all that.
We ran some really nice Dline stunts last year and 2017 with Wash, now we can run more exotic Blitzs and make offensive line units REALLY have to be on their toes with who's coming from where.
Hopefully we see Wash keep at this all year, im sure we'll get bitten by being over Aggressive on some plays but overall I much prefer too much aggression than too little which I feel Wash can be prone to leaning into a bit
I am with you guys 100% here, and it bodes well for both aspects of our defense (run/pass).
Throwing Capers into this mix should only help the unit's efficiency IMO. I will make this prediction: if the defense has another year in the top five, looking more like 2017 than last year, and the team makes another deep playoff run, Wash will get head coaching consideration, thanks in part to being able to utilize 3-4 principles in the defense.
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(08-23-2019, 08:00 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [quote pid='1226647' dateline='1566534448']
BullseyeTonight's preseason game is a dichotomy. On the one hand, since this is our first look this year at the starters in game action, it has elements like a first preseason game of the year. Like kids at Christmas, we got to see our new QB in our new offensive scheme. We got to see our offensive line-at least one that bears some semblance to the one we'll see opening day. We got to see the starting defense for the first time this year. The new car smell that usually comes with the first preseason game was still there. On the other hand, since it was week three, which is usually known as the dress rehearsal before opening day, and this was the first look at the starters, it was like a preseason week 3 on steroids. There is interest in how the starters look against the other team's starters. There is some game planning happening, to say nothing of the game three nail biting hoping no major injuries happen to any starters. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the game.
1. It was an uneven performance by the offense as a whole and the passing game in particular. One of the fears I have always harbored about a WCO is the over dependence it can have on underneath passes. That's how it looked tonight, as there was little to no attacking downfield. There was an abundance of passes in the flat and short hook routes. There was also a heavy reliance on Westbrook over the middle. Perhaps this is reflective of Flip not wanting to tip his hand. Perhaps it's reflective of a very real lack of viable of receiving threats. But while the team should understandably be averse to turnovers, we'll need more offensive diversity, to say nothing of effectiveness to compete with KC week 1.
2. Continuing on this, Foles was so so. The first 2-3 drives were stunningly ineffective, resulting in 3 and outs. The scoring drive was nice, and his TD pass to Westbrook checked a major box I had about the offense and Foles attacking the red zone. But I don't understand what happened on the INT. Yes, Foles was pressured, but it seems like he had enough room to get the receiver the ball away from the defender. The receiver looked like he could have shielded the defender from the ball. It is just preseason, and there were some things to like, but considering how little we've seen of the starters and how little the offense has scored this preseason, a sense of restlessness-bordering on alarm-from Jaguars fans will not be a surprise after this game.
3. The top two players from the 2018 draft-DL Taven Bryan and WR D.J. Chark-have a lot to show. Not only has Bryan done very little of note that's good this offseason, he had two (2) roughing the passer penalties. IIRC, on the first one , he fell for a play fake, stopping mid rush to find the ball, resumed pursuing the passer, only to get a penalty. This two plays demonstrated the lack of awareness scouts asserted Bryan has. He needed a big game, and he got the opposite. I expect him to make the team, but he has to be firmly on the bench. I was high on Chark coming out, and was not overly concerned about his lack of production last year. In training camp, he had some moments, including some nice end zone grabs. But thus far in the preseason games, he has been, at best a non factor in the passing game. While he excels in kick coverageHe certainly doesn't need to return kicks. But we didn't spend a 2nd round pick on him to be a special teamer. We need him to take the top off of defenses, and so far he's doing nothing of the sort. Him getting hrt tonight didn't help, and hopefully he will be 100% on opening day, but he needs production.
4. The right guard battle was interesting. Based on him getting the start tonight, I'd say Richardson has the edge over Cann. I don't think tonight's game changed anything. Richardson wound up with two false start penalties, and by my count, Cann had one. Aside from that, neither stood out to me in a bad way. I think Richardson and Taylor looked pretty good on the right side and seemed to provide good protection for most of the time they were in there. To me, most of the pressure came from the left side after Cam left the game.
5. Man did the defense look good, even without much of an appearance from Yannick Ngakoue. The secondary was providing good coverage most of the night, even though Ramsey got beat deep that one play (no catch).
6. Didn't like the miss from Lambo.
7. Rookie watch-
- Josh Allen-WOW! In the two other games, Allen has made some splash plays early against the run. He also got a couple of pressures in those games, but it didn't seem like he was moving very fast. Not so tonight. I'm not sure if he's getting more comfortable in the scheme. I don't know if he just matched up well against the Miami RT. I don't know if the thought of playing on national television is a motivator. I don't know if it's something else, or some combination of the above, but he was all over the place tonight. He had at least two TFL tonight and by my count has at least 6 for the preseason. But he showed burst on the pass rush...the same burst I saw while he was at Kentucky. Now I can't really speak to the quality of Miami's RT, so I am trying to temper my enthusiasm. But if tonight is an indicia of how this guy can play we're going to really enjoy watching this defense.
- Jawaan Taylor-Did not start the game, but got his first playing time of the preseason. He had a holding penalty, but he looked pretty good in pass protection, especially next to Richardson.
- Josh Oliver-DNP
- Quincy Williams-DNP
- Ryquell Armstead-Played, but really didn't impress because he didn't get much room. Had a 6-7 yard loss. Still seems to struggle catching the ball.
- Gardner Minshew-showed some decent stuff and mediocre stuff.
- Dontavious Russell-I did not notice him
8. I am still not sure what Pass Interference is. On the play Marrone challenged, the defender had his hands all over Westbrook, only for no penalty flag to be called either before or after the review.
9. Good to see Fournette get going. I really like the trucking of the LB in the flat. There should be more plays like that and the safety summoning run against the Steelers.
10. Marrone was really bummed about the injury to Ogbuehi, and was lamenting the team was already down to its 3rd LT.
11. Bottom line: Put the starters in bubble wrap and don't let Allen play next week.
I think you are right with how awkward it felt seeing starters for the first time but 2 weeks from real football. They had drives where players were giving 70% then drives at 100%. Weird to see.
1- I agree we played the underneath way too much. Few plays Foles was just looking at Fournette to get in the flat. I also hope this was just pre season, not giving too much away but we played the check down too much. Teams will just keep stacking the box.
2- I dont know what happened. I thought Westbrook could have done a better job blocking off the corner from being able to come back and make the play. Get your body in the way and he has to foul you. Hoping it's just the connection and chemistry being forged.
3- I really hoped Chark and Cole were going to come out swinging this pre season. They haven't been bad and the O's not been great but thought theyd have made a few more plays. We are going to need both this season but we've heard a lot of good about Conley so far and with Lee and Pryor, they cant afford to slip back down the depth chart.
That's the only criticism of the WR group I have. Since A-Rob and Hurns, we've never had a clear 1 and 2 and I couldn't tell you what the current chart would be.
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I can't speak to what percentages the offense played with, either in terms of effort or percentage of the offense utilizes. If I had to guess, the effort was 100% and the playbook percentage was very little. But I agree the offense looked disjointed. Granted, it IS preseason, and it's unlikely the Patriots would be held to 10 points this year like they were against Carolina. But I was still hoping to see more from those guys. I'm glad they seemingly emerged from the game relatively healthy, though I am concerned about Chark.
Speaking of Chark, like you, I too was hopeful that he and Cole would rebound to having a big year this year. If they can, and the team remains healthy, we can have a good run.
Worst to 1st. Curse Reversed!
The WRs seem to have a habit of waiting for the ball to come to them on those curls and outs. That's really my biggest takeaway on that Foles throw.
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