i know that Mahomes somewhat got rid of the ball quickly, but the D line shares some of the blame as well. The pressure was not consistent, and running defense was not as good as needed to be.

The biggest for the defense when they have issues is that teams can out scheme because pre-snap and early tells are too easy to diagnose on film. This become magnified against really good QB's and/or good offense sets that are used to exploit issues on the defense.

---

[quote pid='1231205' dateline='1568048916']
But since you asked, this defense has taken on Jalen's personality rather than Calais'.  And that is not a good thing.  Harrison and Jack and their stupid penalties and over-exaggerated swagger are cases in point.  I love having Jalen's talent on the team.  I don't love the persona.

I don't agree with the bolded.  I think it's a naive assumption that's just a convenient explanation for undisciplined play. 
Jalen rarely ever plays undisciplined football. Harrison, Jack, Wilson, Bouye all played undisciplined football yesterday. 
I find that counter to Ramsey's example. 

If I'm looking for someone to blame here I'm looking at coaches, not other players.

We'll just have to disagree on that.  Their swagger, talking, uncontrolled emotions, etc., reflect the influence of the dominant personality, not merely coaching.  And, yes, the coaching is not up to par.  It's both/and, not either/or.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I hope you're wrong about him having a negative influence.

---

Fair enough. I hope you're wrong about him having a negative influence.

He definitely is a bad influence on them. By him talking and getting away with it, it enables the others to fill fine to talk. Most players on the defense talk trash, even while they were being destroyed they kept talking and it resulted in Jack being thrown out.

It;s not all on Ramsey, but he certainly is part of the problem. Ramsey usually backs his talking up, but the other players don't. The issue is you can't allow 1 player to do it and comedown on the rest.


I would love to watch 1 Jags game were the defense shut up and just talked to each other in celebrations. Stop talking, it does nothing. Hitting an offensive player is better than talking.

*LF also has not changed, he could have gotten multiple flags yesterday.

---

Fair enough. I hope you're wrong about him having a negative influence.

He definitely is a bad influence on them. By him talking and getting away with it, it enables the others to fill fine to talk. Most players on the defense talk trash, even while they were being destroyed they kept talking and it resulted in Jack being thrown out.

It;s not all on Ramsey, but he certainly is part of the problem. Ramsey usually backs his talking up, but the other players don't. The issue is you can't allow 1 player to do it and comedown on the rest.


I would love to watch 1 Jags game were the defense shut up and just talked to each other in celebrations. Stop talking, it does nothing. Hitting an offensive player is better than talking.

*LF also has not changed, he could have gotten multiple flags yesterday.

I mean, you do realize that 60% of the players in this league talk [BLEEP] on the field frequently, right? Are they all ruining their defense's on field discipline by doing so?
Ramsey has actually toned down his talk by my estimation. I don't see it as a big deal. 

I'm not nearly as confident as you are to just blame the team's lack of discipline on Ramsey. 
I think it falls primarily on the coaches and the maturity level of the players. I do hope Jack and Harrison got an earful from the HC and position coaches today. I think they need to be accountable.

---

I mean, you do realize that 60% of the players in this league talk [BLEEP] on the field frequently, right? Are they all ruining their defense's on field discipline by doing so?
Ramsey has actually toned down his talk by my estimation. I don't see it as a big deal. 

I'm not nearly as confident as you are to just blame the team's lack of discipline on Ramsey. 
I think it falls primarily on the coaches and the maturity level of the players. I do hope Jack and Harrison got an earful from the HC and position coaches today. I think they need to be accountable.

It definitely isn't all on Ramsey. It started with Ramsey, the coaches allowed it, and now it has become a bigger problem than can be addressed by the coaches. Ramsey definitely has cut it back, so he isn't to blame for this game. It sits squarely on the coaches for allowing it now. Other players starting talking, got a big head, new players come in and see its allowed, and now it's out of control.

It's one thing if you can do it and control yourself, but clearly there are plenty on the team who cannot.

---

I mean, you do realize that 60% of the players in this league talk [BLEEP] on the field frequently, right? Are they all ruining their defense's on field discipline by doing so?
Ramsey has actually toned down his talk by my estimation. I don't see it as a big deal. 

I'm not nearly as confident as you are to just blame the team's lack of discipline on Ramsey. 
I think it falls primarily on the coaches and the maturity level of the players. I do hope Jack and Harrison got an earful from the HC and position coaches today. I think they need to be accountable.

It definitely isn't all on Ramsey. It started with Ramsey, the coaches allowed it, and now it has become a bigger problem than can be addressed by the coaches. Ramsey definitely has cut it back, so he isn't to blame for this game. It sits squarely on the coaches for allowing it now. Other players starting talking, got a big head, new players come in and see its allowed, and now it's out of control.

It's one thing if you can do it and control yourself, but clearly there are plenty on the team who cannot.

Please, someone, give me the solution.

The coaches "allowed" Ramsey to do what exactly? Be himself? They should ask (tell?) him to be someone else. Many (most) NFL players trash talk. It's part of football culture. I think some people find it distasteful but it is what it is and it's not going to change. Been to a high school game recently?

What are coaches to do about undisciplined play? I'm honestly asking. Coaches are paid to win games. We as fans want then to win. But do we want coaches to not play the best players if they screw up? And how much is too much? It seems as if coaches always have to walk a fine line between coming across as firm/tough guy and trying to be able to play the best players and win games.

Antonio Brown being the far extreme to the issue.

---

The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

Please, someone, give me the solution.

The coaches "allowed" Ramsey to do what exactly? Be himself? They should ask (tell?) him to be someone else. Many (most) NFL players trash talk. It's part of football culture. I think some people find it distasteful but it is what it is and it's not going to change. Been to a high school game recently?

What are coaches to do about undisciplined play? I'm honestly asking. Coaches are paid to win games. We as fans want then to win. But do we want coaches to not play the best players if they screw up? And how much is too much? It seems as if coaches always have to walk a fine line between coming across as firm/tough guy and trying to be able to play the best players and win games.

Antonio Brown being the far extreme to the issue.

The solution is easy, ban it. You want to celebrate the play you made, great, but don't stand over a player, don't talk to the player you just hit, etc. Do some stupid dance, flex, celebrate with teammates, etc. Why do you need to trash talk a player on the ground?

Compromise would be once you cost the team, you lose social media and trash talking privileges. This isn't a 1 on 1 game, players actions affect the whole team. Good teams don't have distractions and once you become a distraction, you hurt the team.

Ramsey controls his emotions for the most part (he has lost it a few times though) but others on the team cannot do both. They talk and then cost the team yards. LF, Harrison, Bouye, Jack, Robinson, Ngakoue, and more have cost this team yards. They need to stop all the talking and focus on playing on the field first. They want to talk before they actually make plays.

If they can't do that, they need to be gone.

---

The solution is to treat these players like men.  I once had a Master Chief when I was in the Navy tell me that he would treat me like a man as long as I conducted myself as such.  He warned me that if I wanted to act like a child he would treat me as such.  Needless to say at my young age I got "disciplined as a child" a few times and learned from it.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Please, someone, give me the solution.

The coaches "allowed" Ramsey to do what exactly? Be himself? They should ask (tell?) him to be someone else. Many (most) NFL players trash talk. It's part of football culture. I think some people find it distasteful but it is what it is and it's not going to change. Been to a high school game recently?

What are coaches to do about undisciplined play? I'm honestly asking. Coaches are paid to win games. We as fans want then to win. But do we want coaches to not play the best players if they screw up? And how much is too much? It seems as if coaches always have to walk a fine line between coming across as firm/tough guy and trying to be able to play the best players and win games.

Antonio Brown being the far extreme to the issue.

The solution is easy, ban it. You want to celebrate the play you made, great, but don't stand over a player, don't talk to the player you just hit, etc. Do some stupid dance, flex, celebrate with teammates, etc. Why do you need to trash talk a player on the ground?

Compromise would be once you cost the team, you lose social media and trash talking privileges. This isn't a 1 on 1 game, players actions affect the whole team. Good teams don't have distractions and once you become a distraction, you hurt the team.

Ramsey controls his emotions for the most part (he has lost it a few times though) but others on the team cannot do both. They talk and then cost the team yards. LF, Harrison, Bouye, Jack, Robinson, Ngakoue, and more have cost this team yards. They need to stop all the talking and focus on playing on the field first. They want to talk before they actually make plays.

If they can't do that, they need to be gone.

Gene Smith is that you?  I kid..  the modern age of football doesn't allow you to be an ideologic person.  You tie up money in people you are really in a bind to them and it limits what you can do.  We have managed our cap well but haven't developed talent well.  We have acquired talented players and then handcuffed them to a historically bad offense and it is all brewing in this big pot of disappointment.  You think us fans are disappointed from yesterday, imagine being an overpaid player on this team.

---

The Khan Years

Patience, Persistence, and Piss Poor General Managers.

I mean, you do realize that 60% of the players in this league talk [BLEEP] on the field frequently, right? Are they all ruining their defense's on field discipline by doing so?
Ramsey has actually toned down his talk by my estimation. I don't see it as a big deal. 

I'm not nearly as confident as you are to just blame the team's lack of discipline on Ramsey. 
I think it falls primarily on the coaches and the maturity level of the players. I do hope Jack and Harrison got an earful from the HC and position coaches today. I think they need to be accountable.

It definitely isn't all on Ramsey. It started with Ramsey, the coaches allowed it, and now it has become a bigger problem than can be addressed by the coaches. Ramsey definitely has cut it back, so he isn't to blame for this game. It sits squarely on the coaches for allowing it now. Other players starting talking, got a big head, new players come in and see its allowed, and now it's out of control.

It's one thing if you can do it and control yourself, but clearly there are plenty on the team who cannot.

No, they don't want to address it. 

Maybe if Marrone started getting fined for his players stupidity he'd start taking care of business.

---

Pats just cut Obi Melifomwu. Would be a nice get, really likes him coming out of college a couple of years ago

---

First Post.

Regarding the defense, I think people are actually taking this way out of proportion based on the results.  There are young players on defense, so with that there's going to be mistakes.  Now the first TD to Watkins that's something that is just terrible and something they cannot allow.  Harrison should have just tackled him and got it over with instead of doing whatever it was he was trying to do??

The TD with Watkins running wide open, that was a communication/lack of understanding issue by a young player IMO.  It looks like it was quarters coverage.  I'm not sure if they made any other calls within the coverage, like a Push call, but if not, I think Quincy was supposed to pick up the short crosser but he didn't.  Andy Reid did an excellent job of testing whether these young players actually know what they are supposed to do within what Wash called, and this is where I think it's going to take time and where missing time, being young and inexperienced, and a lack of bullets in preseason actually hurt.  It's one thing to practice something, but it is quite different when an offensive coordinator is designing plays to intentionally misdirect your young players to scheme guys open.  The crossing route by Watkins was a perfect call by Reid to test young players, especially when he has their eyes focused on pre-snap backfield motion.  As fans we might see more of this if coordinators anticipate that Wash will call a lot of qtrs.  We'll see it until the mistakes stop happening.  The same thing happened to Tremaine Edmunds last year in Buffalo, who also runs a lot of qtrs coverage.  In the early games teams really exploited him with the crossing route.  I think it's just going to take time for Quincy and Jack to gel on that sort of stuff.

---

I didn't see the Patriots talking any trash last night. Just sayin'

---

First Post.

Regarding the defense, I think people are actually taking this way out of proportion based on the results.  There are young players on defense, so with that there's going to be mistakes.  Now the first TD to Watkins that's something that is just terrible and something they cannot allow.  Harrison should have just tackled him and got it over with instead of doing whatever it was he was trying to do??

The TD with Watkins running wide open, that was a communication/lack of understanding issue by a young player IMO.  It looks like it was quarters coverage.  I'm not sure if they made any other calls within the coverage, like a Push call, but if not, I think Quincy was supposed to pick up the short crosser but he didn't.  Andy Reid did an excellent job of testing whether these young players actually know what they are supposed to do within what Wash called, and this is where I think it's going to take time and where missing time, being young and inexperienced, and a lack of bullets in preseason actually hurt.  It's one thing to practice something, but it is quite different when an offensive coordinator is designing plays to intentionally misdirect your young players to scheme guys open.  The crossing route by Watkins was a perfect call by Reid to test young players, especially when he has their eyes focused on pre-snap backfield motion.  As fans we might see more of this if coordinators anticipate that Wash will call a lot of qtrs.  We'll see it until the mistakes stop happening.  The same thing happened to Tremaine Edmunds last year in Buffalo, who also runs a lot of qtrs coverage.  In the early games teams really exploited him with the crossing route.  I think it's just going to take time for Quincy and Jack to gel on that sort of stuff.

I think Wash intends to use more quarters this season as it eliminates the single high safety and neither of our new starting safeties excel there. 
We saw safeties anticipate in the wrong direction on some of these and then arrive too late after getting turned around and we saw CBs abandon their quadrant yesterday. Most of this indeed seemed to stem from them being focused on pre-snap motion and guessing incorrectly where the ball was going only to have it go to the area they just abandoned.

---

I didn't see the Patriots talking any trash last night.   Just sayin'

Yup, and I didn't see Steeler receivers running down the field super wide open time and time again.

---

You need to rewatch yesterday's game. 

Ramsey was not the problem.

Even in run support he was getting after it.

Fair enough. Guess I'm just down heavy on the smack talk in losing efforts. But in all fairness, I will go back and watch it. I usually listen live and only rewatch the wins and close losses. (Gamepass.. But I intend on looking back at this to get a look at Minshew)

Just, when you here Lags describe player antics , you sorta put that player in the knucklehead category right along with Lags. I'm hoping I just got a little "souped up" and I'm inaccurate in my criticism.

---

You Gotta Be Able To Run Da' Rock~

Even in run support he was getting after it.

Fair enough. Guess I'm just down heavy on the smack talk in losing efforts. But in all fairness, I will go back and watch it. I usually listen live and only rewatch the wins and close losses. (Gamepass.. But I intend on looking back at this to get a look at Minshew)

Just, when you here Lags describe player antics , you sorta put that player in the knucklehead category right along with Lags. I'm hoping I just got a little "souped up" and I'm inaccurate in my criticism.

There are lots of folks that think his attitude is part of the problem with this defense. Maybe they are right, I don't know. 
But his play on the field was unselfish yesterday. He talked a little smack, but pretty tame for what we know of him. 

There was the one TD at the goal line he gave up during which Watkins pushed off and didn't get flagged.
And there was another big pass play where he may have left his quadrant in quarters coverage because he bit on pre-snap motion, but you can't tell from the broadcast angles. Need to see the all22 tomorrow to know for sure. 
He played well outside of those moments.

---

Okay. That's wusup. I mean they all still my guys. All still ballers and I'm still excited for this season, so here's hoping they can settle in and get back to playing Sacksonville football.

---

You Gotta Be Able To Run Da' Rock~

I think Wash intends to use more quarters this season as it eliminates the single high safety and neither of our new starting safeties excel there. 
We saw safeties anticipate in the wrong direction on some of these and then arrive too late after getting turned around and we saw CBs abandon their quadrant yesterday. Most of this indeed seemed to stem from them being focused on pre-snap motion and guessing incorrectly where the ball was going only to have it go to the area they just abandoned.

Both posts, these things it's exactly what happened.
Marrone yesterday went into it about quarters coverage and on the Watkins TD (the one where he was completely alone) said it was a situation/route they didn't show the players before. Still had they played it correctly that should have been a catch and tackle. (if I heard correctly he also said that if they were in cover 3 that would have been ideal against that route)

Marrone also said they tried this approach to keep everything in front of them as they were worried that if they tried to play with more press coverage (he was asked if they should have played more press) KC would have got them with pick plays and stuff like that. (something that made NE pay in the conference game,). I still don't think giving Kelce a free release at the LOS is a good idea...and we saw that.

What worries me about the NYC4jags post is that if Wash indeed wants to use more quarters coverage is the fact that apparently it's what got us in troubles for a bit last year too. 
If I recall correctly it was after the Dallas Cowboys  game fiasco (where WRs were running free and wild like last Sunday) that he came out and said they were playing quarters and that they would have stopped trying to be "so damn cute".
Our players seem to struggle with it and with zone coverages they tend to get confused who has to follow who, when to hand the receivers off and stuff like that. We'll see how they plan to adjust against more "normal" offenses.

---

i know that Mahomes somewhat got rid of the ball quickly, but the D line shares some of the blame as well. The pressure was not consistent, and running defense was not as good as needed to be.

The biggest for the defense when they have issues is that teams can out scheme because pre-snap and early tells are too easy to diagnose on film. This become magnified against really good QB's and/or good offense sets that are used to exploit issues on the defense.

That's all true but I have to say that especially rewatching some of the game the d-line was really going to pressure Mahomes. There were quite a few times where they were this close to forcing a fumble or getting to him, really a split second.
Problem was that with the amount of off-coverage we were playing and the free release Kelce and all receivers had, Mahomes didn't have to wait much to find someone open. Had we played tighter coverage, especially in the first half, half of those throws are all sacks/forced fumbles as really Yannick, Allen and Calais were right there.

Run defense on the other hands was bad pretty much throughout it, Dareus can't come back soon enough.

---