Eh.. I agree with Gruden on Goodell.

Sue me..

Same here.

Even taking what might be considered by many politics out of the equation,  5 reasons come to mind why I believe he's a subpar Commissioner. In no particular order:

1. The ordered destruction of Spygate evidence.
2. Gregg Williams not getting a lifetime ban from the NFL for his role in Bountygate.
3. The NFL relocation process, which led to 3 teams moving.  
4. Playoff expansion.
5. NFL Officiating is even worse on his watch than it was previously.

Agreed on all accounts

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Just great, now Gruden will be sitting at home on his couch collecting unemployment, plus $600 per week.

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staaaaaaaaaaaaaahp

take it to the politics thread if you must. I don't want any poo in my peach cobbler, thank you

Funny. It isn't politics and it isn't religion that my simple statement is about. People aren't basically good. This situation is horrible and good thing he already made his money because it is now over. 

This is entertainment and sports allegedly but these public trials over private emails is stupid as his comments.

You could have made that point quite effectively without mentioning or referencing Judeo -Christian values, etc. at all, just as Gruden could have expressed dissatisfaction with DeMaurice Smith without reference to stereotypes or real/perceived immutable racial characteristics.

Lots of problems are created by those gratuitous insertions of race and religion, especially in forums where such talk is supposed to be prohibited.

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Eh.. I agree with Gruden on Goodell.

Sue me..

Same here.

Even taking what might be considered by many politics out of the equation,  5 reasons come to mind why I believe he's a subpar Commissioner. In no particular order:

1. The ordered destruction of Spygate evidence.
2. Gregg Williams not getting a lifetime ban from the NFL for his role in Bountygate.
3. The NFL relocation process, which led to 3 teams moving.  
4. Playoff expansion.
5. NFL Officiating is even worse on his watch than it was previously.

I am no fan of Goodell, but I have to defend him on point three.

The league has been on the wrong side of antitrust law long before Goodell became commissioner.  Dating back to the Rozelle years, the courts have consisently ruled against the league in  relocation cases.  Not too much Goodell can do from a legal perspective if a owner decides to move a team.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Just great, now Gruden will be sitting at home on his couch collecting unemployment, plus $600 per week.

I don't think you get it if you quit.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Just great, now Gruden will be sitting at home on his couch collecting unemployment, plus $600 per week.

I don't think you get it if you quit.

Don't have a J-Dub moment.

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Funny. It isn't politics and it isn't religion that my simple statement is about. People aren't basically good. This situation is horrible and good thing he already made his money because it is now over. 

This is entertainment and sports allegedly but these public trials over private emails is stupid as his comments.

You could have made that point quite effectively without mentioning or referencing Judeo -Christian values, etc. at all, just as Gruden could have expressed dissatisfaction with DeMaurice Smith without reference to stereotypes or real/perceived immutable racial characteristics.

Lots of problems are created by those gratuitous insertions of race and religion, especially in forums where such talk is supposed to be prohibited.

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Same here.

Even taking what might be considered by many politics out of the equation,  5 reasons come to mind why I believe he's a subpar Commissioner. In no particular order:

1. The ordered destruction of Spygate evidence.
2. Gregg Williams not getting a lifetime ban from the NFL for his role in Bountygate.
3. The NFL relocation process, which led to 3 teams moving.  
4. Playoff expansion.
5. NFL Officiating is even worse on his watch than it was previously.

I am no fan of Goodell, but I have to defend him on point three.

The league has been on the wrong side of antitrust law long before Goodell became commissioner.  Dating back to the Rozelle years, the courts have consisently ruled against the league in  relocation cases.  Not too much Goodell can do from a legal perspective if a owner decides to move a team.

At the very least, I think the NFL could have made it much more difficult for Stan Kroenke to move the Rams from St. Louis to Los Angeles. Instead, they cleared the path for him, with Cowboys owner Jerry Jones a prime catalyst.

I'm hoping the St.Louis Lawsuit against the NFL goes to trial.  I think the NFL knows that there's a good chance that the court will rule in favor of St.Louis, with a massive awarding of damages.

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When you give up  Judeo-Christian values as a nation you give up forgiveness, redemption and second and third chances. It is sad.

+1000.  Some one needs to expose these cancel culturists as frauds who are just as imperfect as anyone else.  Problem is, they are the new arbiters of morality who rule and make the rules from thier journalistic and social media ivory towers.  There was a lot about Trump I didnt like, but one thing he did very well was push back on these hypocrites.

It's very difficult to keep this discussion out of "politics", but that is what it is.

On one side of the fence, these emails are from 10 years ago when the whole "cancel culture" movement wasn't so strong.  It's past history.  The thing is, he wasn't the subject of any investigation.  Why do these emails get leaked to the media when they had nothing to do with the investigation that was being conducted?

On the other side of the fence, what he said (wrote) is not right (although I agree with him regarding Goodell).  I personally wouldn't want anyone on my staff or working for me that made remarks like his.  Again though, this was 10 years ago.

O well, it is what it is.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I don't think you get it if you quit.

Don't have a J-Dub moment.

You've cut me to the Quick.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

+1000.  Some one needs to expose these cancel culturists as frauds who are just as imperfect as anyone else.  Problem is, they are the new arbiters of morality who rule and make the rules from thier journalistic and social media ivory towers.  There was a lot about Trump I didnt like, but one thing he did very well was push back on these hypocrites.

It's very difficult to keep this discussion out of "politics", but that is what it is.

On one side of the fence, these emails are from 10 years ago when the whole "cancel culture" movement wasn't so strong.  It's past history.  The thing is, he wasn't the subject of any investigation.  Why do these emails get leaked to the media when they had nothing to do with the investigation that was being conducted?

On the other side of the fence, what he said (wrote) is not right (although I agree with him regarding Goodell).  I personally wouldn't want anyone on my staff or working for me that made remarks like his.  Again though, this was 10 years ago.

O well, it is what it is.

There are e-mails dating back to as recently as 2018, so this wasn't just 10 years ago.  They likely didn't stop until he was hired back into the NFL with the Raiders. Also, the Donald Sterling stuff happened in 2014, so it's not like this is some sort of escalated punishment compared to roughly 10 years ago.

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+1000.  Some one needs to expose these cancel culturists as frauds who are just as imperfect as anyone else.  Problem is, they are the new arbiters of morality who rule and make the rules from thier journalistic and social media ivory towers.  There was a lot about Trump I didnt like, but one thing he did very well was push back on these hypocrites.

It's very difficult to keep this discussion out of "politics", but that is what it is.

On one side of the fence, these emails are from 10 years ago when the whole "cancel culture" movement wasn't so strong.  It's past history.  The thing is, he wasn't the subject of any investigation.  Why do these emails get leaked to the media when they had nothing to do with the investigation that was being conducted?

On the other side of the fence, what he said (wrote) is not right (although I agree with him regarding Goodell).  I personally wouldn't want anyone on my staff or working for me that made remarks like his.  Again though, this was 10 years ago.

O well, it is what it is.

So these emails were uncovered during the investigation into the WFT and their scandals.

The emails from Gruden were sent to Bruce Allen when he was working for the Skins.

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Same here.

Even taking what might be considered by many politics out of the equation,  5 reasons come to mind why I believe he's a subpar Commissioner. In no particular order:

1. The ordered destruction of Spygate evidence.
2. Gregg Williams not getting a lifetime ban from the NFL for his role in Bountygate.
3. The NFL relocation process, which led to 3 teams moving.  
4. Playoff expansion.
5. NFL Officiating is even worse on his watch than it was previously.

Agreed on all accounts

Don’t forget turning a blind eye to scumbags like Hill and Hunt. And adding a 17th game

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Gruden removed from Tampa Bay Ring of Honor. The same team that employs Antonio Brown.

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Gruden removed from Tampa Bay Ring of Honor. The same team that employs Antonio Brown.

Great point.

Being that the Bucs removed Jon Gruden from their Ring of Honor, they should also remove mention of their 2002 season Super Bowl Championship.

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Let's not forget they just signed Richard Sherman who was arrested a year ago for domestic violence.

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I think we can all agree that the NFL is laughably inconsistent.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

I think we can all agree that the NFL is laughably inconsistent.

That is extremely clear.

They have no idea how to handle situations that arise. As if they’ve never prepared for any bad things to ever happen.

But hey… that’s crack down on taunting!

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I just read an article about these emails, and it's pretty bad.  He basically slurs everybody- women, gays, blacks, everybody.

I'd be more surprised if such language weren't the norm for a lot of the white leadership in the league. The really surprising thing is that he put it down in writing. While I've noticed a lot of bigots have gotten pretty bold and out since around 2016, before that most of them were more careful about what they could get caught for.

Yea I can't believe the racial jungle we live in. According to some in 2008 is when we got our first articulate and clean African American, just sad people feel that way. I'm just amazed at how many people view KKK members as their mentors.

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Gruden removed from Tampa Bay Ring of Honor. The same team that employs Antonio Brown.

And yet O.J. Simpson still has his bust in the Hall of Fame. The NFL is really screwed up.

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You could have made that point quite effectively without mentioning or referencing Judeo -Christian values, etc. at all, just as Gruden could have expressed dissatisfaction with DeMaurice Smith without reference to stereotypes or real/perceived immutable racial characteristics.

Lots of problems are created by those gratuitous insertions of race and religion, especially in forums where such talk is supposed to be prohibited.

---

I am no fan of Goodell, but I have to defend him on point three.

The league has been on the wrong side of antitrust law long before Goodell became commissioner.  Dating back to the Rozelle years, the courts have consisently ruled against the league in  relocation cases.  Not too much Goodell can do from a legal perspective if a owner decides to move a team.

At the very least, I think the NFL could have made it much more difficult for Stan Kroenke to move the Rams from St. Louis to Los Angeles. Instead, they cleared the path for him, with Cowboys owner Jerry Jones a prime catalyst.

I'm hoping the St.Louis Lawsuit against the NFL goes to trial.  I think the NFL knows that there's a good chance that the court will rule in favor of St.Louis, with a massive awarding of damages.

That's the point.

 Without this becoming a legal brief or memorandum of law, in short, making it more difficult to move would likely fail antitrust scrutiny as "unreasonable restraint of trade."

The league and the players association can get around antitrust scrutiny because they collectively bargain for terms and conditions that are anti competitive (i.e. the NFL draft). 

But the owners don't bargain with themselves to that degree.  The courts don't view the NFL as a single entity in terms of antitrust law.  The courts view the NFL as 32 separate entities in that area of the law.  As a single entity, there could be no collusion.  As 32 entities, these businesses can collude to anti competitive effect such that it violates antitrust law.

It's been a while since I read the caselaw, the courts in the various litigation in the 1980s involving Al Davis vs the NFL regarding the relocation of the Raiders, the court came up with a seemingly counterintuitive argument supporting the idea that the NFL is not a single entity.  I do not have the energy at the moment to detail it here.

But the bottom line is the courts have tied the NFLs hands when it comes to franchise relocation, which is why they haven't stopped any of them.  For all of his faults, Goodell is not to blame for that.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Gruden removed from Tampa Bay Ring of Honor. The same team that employs Antonio Brown.

And yet O.J. Simpson still has his bust in the Hall of Fame. The NFL is really screwed up.

While they "collaborate," and the subject matter overlap between the two organizations is considerable, to say the least, the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the NFL are two separate entities.  As such, I'm not sure you could conclude the NFL is messed up because the Pro Football Hall of Fame maintains O.J. Simpson in its ranks.

Now there are any number of reasons to conclude the NFL is messed up based upon reasons wholly separate from O.J Simpson, granted.

But aside from them providing the platform for OJ Simpson to compile his Hall of Fame career prior to 1994, I'm not sure what Simpson related blame the NFL has.  Sadly, there have been guys among the ranks of NFL players who have committed murder and various other heinous acts and were found guilty (Rae Carruth) that the NFL has NOT celebrated subsequent to those acts.  I don't think the NFL celebrates OJ Simpson much these days, and I don't think they have pushed for continued inclusion into the Pro Football Hall of fame. 

Could they push for Simpson's expulsion from the Hall of Fame?  Sure.  Might they be influential?  Absolutely.

But they didn't.

Consider also Simpson was not convicted of the murder charges.  Was he found liable in civil court?  Yes.  Do most observers think he committed the murders?  Yes.  Was he subsequently convicted of lesser offenses on crimes unrelated to the murder trial and given a lengthy prison sentence?  Yes.  But those facts do not carry the same weight of a murder conviction.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!