Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote: Nobody should have to pretend to be something they are not.

You're right, so why is everyone celebrating his elaborate game of pretend?

Quote:You're right, so why is everyone celebrating his elaborate game of pretend?

They are celebrating his choice to stop pretending.

Quote:I don't know why people are so upset about this. If Caitlyn wants to be Caitlyn, who cares? I embrace people being who they are, it's refreshing. Nobody should have to pretend to be something they are not.

I don't care. I know that much.

Quote:I don't know why people are so upset about this. If Caitlyn wants to be Caitlyn, who cares? I embrace people being who they are, it's refreshing. Nobody should have to pretend to be something they are not.

I haven't seen anyone upset that he wants to be a she. Several of us disagree that is courageous. I personally feel sad for him and believe he is suffering from a mental illness.

Quote:They are celebrating his choice to stop pretending.

Reality says he just started. Its past time we quit with this "truth is what you say it is" nonsense. Bruce Jenner is a mentally ill man expressing his pathology by pretending he is someone of the opposite gender. That is the truth no matter what anyone feels about it.

I think, from glancing through this thread, that people are confusing gender with sex. Of course that is understandable, considering they are so frequently erroneously used interchangeably.

Quote:Reality says he just started. Its past time we quit with this "truth is what you say it is" nonsense. Bruce Jenner is a mentally ill man expressing his pathology by pretending he is someone of the opposite gender. That is the truth no matter what anyone feels about it.

 

Stated as if an irrefutable fact, despite much evidence to the contrary.

 

Quote:Stated as if an irrefutable fact, despite much evidence to the contrary.

 

 

I think that is the part that annoys me the most.  Could every single transgender person have a mental illness?  Yes, but in my opinion based on how unbelievable life itself is, it makes sense that someone could have the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or visa versa.  It seems very plausible in fact.  But we are still so early in transgender studies that no one should be claiming they know as a matter of fact all transgender people are mentally ill.

 

If you believe gay men and women truly are attracted to the same sex just as straight men and women are truly attracted to different sex, why would you think it isn't possible that someone can be mentally female, but physically male?  I mean, we have black holes in our universe that suck light and all mass near it into an infinitely small hole, yet some how being transgender is impossible...  There are so many things we do not understand in this world.  Open your mind people.  This world is not nearly as simple as you wish it to be.

Quote:I think that is the part that annoys me the most.  Could every single transgender person have a mental illness?  Yes, but in my opinion based on how unbelievable life itself is, it makes sense that someone could have the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or visa versa.  It seems very plausible in fact.  But we are still so early in transgender studies that no one should be claiming they know as a matter of fact all transgender people are mentally ill.

 

If you believe gay men and women truly are attracted to the same sex just as straight men and women are truly attracted to different sex, why would you think it isn't possible that someone can be mentally female, but physically male?  I mean, we have black holes in our universe that suck light and all mass near it into an infinitely small hole, yet some how being transgender is impossible...  There are so many things we do not understand in this world.  Open your mind people.  This world is not nearly as simple as you wish it to be.

There arent that many transgenders, certainly not as many as there are schizophrenics or other better known mental illnesses. The same with homosexuals, even though they are out in most places they are still a miniscule segment of the population at large. Its not beyond reason that the entire poulation is mentally ill, discounting those doing it for attention, fame, or other similar reasons. They certainly comprise an abnormal segment of humanity.

Quote:I think that is the part that annoys me the most. Could every single transgender person have a mental illness? Yes, but in my opinion based on how unbelievable life itself is, it makes sense that someone could have the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or visa versa. It seems very plausible in fact. But we are still so early in transgender studies that no one should be claiming they know as a matter of fact all transgender people are mentally ill.


If you believe gay men and women truly are attracted to the same sex just as straight men and women are truly attracted to different sex, why would you think it isn't possible that someone can be mentally female, but physically male? I mean, we have black holes in our universe that suck light and all mass near it into an infinitely small hole, yet some how being transgender is impossible... There are so many things we do not understand in this world. Open your mind people. This world is not nearly as simple as you wish it to be.

Homosexuality is based around an action, it doesn't change the individuals personality, gender or identity that's be difference. I am still me regardless of who I find sexually attractive, however if I stop identifying myself as me and create a whole new identity with a new name I've lost my identity. It's the same as people with multiple personality disorder they don't have 3 or 4 personalities trapped in one mind they are ill and need help.

Quote:There arent that many transgenders, certainly not as many as there are schizophrenics or other better known mental illnesses. The same with homosexuals, even though they are out in most places they are still a miniscule segment of the population at large. Its not beyond reason that the entire poulation is mentally ill, discounting those doing it for attention, fame, or other similar reasons. They certainly comprise an abnormal segment of humanity.

To think it is possible yes. But you are stating it as a fact when we don't know enough to even have that strong of an opinion.

Quote:Homosexuality is based around an action, it doesn't change the individuals personality, gender or identity that's be difference. I am still me regardless of who I find sexually attractive, however if I stop identifying myself as me and create a whole new identity with a new name I've lost my identity. It's the same as people with multiple personality disorder they don't have 3 or 4 personalities trapped in one mind they are ill and need help.

It's not the same. I'm not sure what it so hard to believe someone is emotionally a woman and physically a man. Is it really that hard to believe that as amazing as life is, that is impossible in nature?


Again, you keep stating something as a fact when there isn't even enough information out or studies out to say anything of fact. You have formed your opinion long before and that type of close mindedness is dangerous IMO.

Quote:  Could every single transgender person have a mental illness?  Yes, but in my opinion based on how unbelievable life itself is, it makes sense that someone could have the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or visa versa.  

Are you willing to accept the premise that there may exist a mental illness which leads to, or is defined by, a transgender tendency?

 

If so, would not having "...the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa", define or identify that specific mental illness?

Quote:Are you willing to accept the premise that there may exist a mental illness which leads to, or is defined by, a transgender tendency?

 

If so, would not having "...the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa", define or identify that specific mental illness?

 

That's kind of my point, if it really is the case then it's an illness too.

Quote:That's kind of my point, if it really is the case then it's an illness too.

I agree with you completely and consider it to be a mental illness, but that's my humble opinion.

 

Maybe a new chapter for the DSM-5?

I don't think it's a mental illness. It's just a change from societal norms. We expect men and women to dress and groom a certain way, and when they don't there must be a label attached. While it is by no means all inclusive, we have all known men who act more feminine than "normal", as well as women who act and dress more masculine than "normal". Sometimes they are homosexual, other times not. Yet they are still often stigmatized, though that happens less now than just a few years ago.

 

I do know other cultures are more understanding and accepting than ours. In parts of Asia, parents often recognize it in their children at an early age and make no effort to change their behavior. In the Philippines and Thailand transgendered women enter beauty pageants around age 18 as a rite of passage. During times of local festivals, there will be events like beauty pageants and sports events featuring transgendered women sponsored by the local governments.

 

It's not all wonderful for them, it is a complicated situation. They can be honored and celebrated, yet cannot find jobs at which they can dress as a woman, or wear their hair long, though even this is changing. In the more conservative, rural areas there will still be horror stories of fathers drowning their sons who display feminine characteristics at an early age. Thankfully this is becoming a very rare occurrence.

Quote:I don't think it's a mental illness. It's just a change from societal norms. We expect men and women to dress and groom a certain way, and when they don't there must be a label attached. While it is by no means all inclusive, we have all known men who act more feminine than "normal", as well as women who act and dress more masculine than "normal". Sometimes they are homosexual, other times not. Yet they are still often stigmatized, though that happens less now than just a few years ago.

 

I do know other cultures are more understanding and accepting than ours. In parts of Asia, parents often recognize it in their children at an early age and make no effort to change their behavior. In the Philippines and Thailand transgendered women enter beauty pageants around age 18 as a rite of passage. During times of local festivals, there will be events like beauty pageants and sports events featuring transgendered women sponsored by the local governments.

 

It's not all wonderful for them, it is a complicated situation. They can be honored and celebrated, yet cannot find jobs at which they can dress as a woman, or wear their hair long, though even this is changing. In the more conservative, rural areas there will still be horror stories of fathers drowning their sons who display feminine characteristics at an early age. Thankfully this is becoming a very rare occurrence.

 

I must disagree.

 

First of all, why must "labels be attached" to people?  What group of people routinely does this?

 

Second of all, if some guy "feels like" he is a "woman trapped in a man's body", that to me is a sign that "his head is not right", thus "mental illness".  Do I condemn it?  No.  But I don't subscribe to a person's perception with reality simply because of "what they feel".  Biologically a man has been born with an X and a Y chromosome.  Nothing changes that, no matter how he "feels".  You can remove/replace/modify genitalia or other body parts, but biologically a man cannot transform into a woman and vice-versa.

 

I personally refuse to call a person that has an X and a Y chromosome "she".

 

Also, just because a practice is "accepted" in other cultures, it doesn't make it "normal" here in our culture, though many want to change that.

Quote:I must disagree.

 

First of all, why must "labels be attached" to people?  What group of people routinely does this?

 

Second of all, if some guy "feels like" he is a "woman trapped in a man's body", that to me is a sign that "his head is not right", thus "mental illness".  Do I condemn it?  No.  But I don't subscribe to a person's perception with reality simply because of "what they feel".  Biologically a man has been born with an X and a Y chromosome.  Nothing changes that, no matter how he "feels".  You can remove/replace/modify genitalia or other body parts, but biologically a man cannot transform into a woman and vice-versa.

 

I personally refuse to call a person that has an X and a Y chromosome "she".

 

Also, just because a practice is "accepted" in other cultures, it doesn't make it "normal" here in our culture, though many want to change that.

 

There is a litany of things our society now accepts as normal that once were considered abnormal or downright abhorrent. Our culture has no stronghold on what is correct, we can learn from other cultures or even simply decide what once was considered wrong is now ok.

 

I know a person who, having no knowledge of her genitalia, I know with all certainty you would refer to as "she" or "her". Because she looks, thinks and acts in every way as what our society considers feminine. But she was born with the penis and testicles she still possesses, and with an X and Y chromosome. She lives the life she feels from within.

 

Don't be so sure of what you'd call someone.

Quote:Are you willing to accept the premise that there may exist a mental illness which leads to, or is defined by, a transgender tendency?

 

If so, would not having "...the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa", define or identify that specific mental illness?

 

I'm willing to accept anything is possible and we don't have enough information.  I'm open minded and would rather the science and studies lead me to my own conclusion then preconceived notions that I have.

 

No, not necessarily.  Just as men being attracted to men is not defined as a mental illness.  I believe there is much we don't understand about nature and it is extremely dangerous to draw a hard line in the sand when you are going to characterize transgenders as having a mental illness.  If transgenders in fact do not have a mental illness and we say they do, that can have profound impact on that community and in a very negative way.  

 

Why is it dangerous?  Well lets use the gay community as an example.  Compared with LGBT young people who were not rejected or were only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected LGBT young people were:

 



 

This is why it is important to do studies and come to the right conclusions, not our preconceived view on how things "should be".  And this is why I stress to be open minded on the subject.  Remember, not too long ago we thought that gay community had mental disorders or could be "fixed" through therapy.  And that cause a ton of harm for that community.  

Quote:I don't think it's a mental illness. It's just a change from societal norms. We expect men and women to dress and groom a certain way, and when they don't there must be a label attached. While it is by no means all inclusive, we have all known men who act more feminine than "normal", as well as women who act and dress more masculine than "normal".

 

 

Your position suggests it's a conscious choice without underlying factors or influence.  Certainly our society is becoming increasingly tolerant of non-conventional behavior, but simple acceptance proves little.  We're not just talking about dress and mannerisms, we're talking about a person altering his/her gender through chemicals and surgical procedures.  

 

How drastic must a physical alteration be before a person choosing to undergo such a transformation is considered mentally ill?   Is there a point at which the desire and willingness to do so indicates a deeper problem?