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Quote:Imagine being you but in a woman's body?

 

I'd never leave the house as I'd be too busy getting in touch with my newly acquired female side.

 

#33

Quote:How courageous of Bruce to accept boat loads of money for his story.

How courageous of him to be given awards and accolades from society.

 

So courageous, that one is.

 

 

Sorry, folks. Bruce can't change his chromosomes nor can he get pregnant and have a baby.

 

All he has done is mutilated a man's body. He can't change the inside. He is still, and will always be a man.

 

Thank goodness.....

 

#33

Quote:Your position suggests it's a conscious choice without underlying factors or influence.  Certainly our society is becoming increasingly tolerant of non-conventional behavior, but simple acceptance proves little.  We're not just talking about dress and mannerisms, we're talking about a person altering his/her gender through chemicals and surgical procedures.  

 

How drastic must a physical alteration be before a person choosing to undergo such a transformation is considered mentally ill?   Is there a point at which the desire and willingness to do so indicates a deeper problem?

 

A better question might be why mental illness, instead of just a different mental state? There seems to be a mindset here that if it defies one's sense of reason, there must be something wrong.

 

The person I mentioned above is rational, responsible and intelligent. She works hard, takes care of her family. Yes, she takes a low dose of hormones, and has undergone breast augmentation and laser treatments to remove facial hair. Is that any more a sign of mental illness than a person undergoing cosmetic surgery? i don't see all that as altering her gender as much as manipulating her physical appearance. At the very worst it's vanity, not insanity.

 

If she is mentally ill, the world could use more mentally ill people like her.

Quote:It's not the same. I'm not sure what it so hard to believe someone is emotionally a woman and physically a man. Is it really that hard to believe that as amazing as life is, that is impossible in nature?


Again, you keep stating something as a fact when there isn't even enough information out or studies out to say anything of fact. You have formed your opinion long before and that type of close mindedness is dangerous IMO.

Emotions do not dictate biology, a man that feels like a woman is still a man it is his emotions and the cause of those emotions that are out of balance not his biological makeup.


Being born a gender is neither good nor bad, right or wrong, it is simply ( outside of a few rare instances) a natural fact. You are born with specific biological organs emotions and feelings don't change that.


If emotions are the basis for reality then you can't label individuals with multiple personality disorder as mentally Ill. they believe their mind is host to multiple identities.

Quote: Genitalia has very little, if anything, to do with gender identity.

Not true, that's how Ace Ventura identified the bad guy and solved the crime in Pet Detective.  

Liberals are funny

 

Feminists say that gender roles mean nothing and should be eliminated, but at the same time they are clammoring for Bruce Jenner to be identified with the female gender.

 

you cant have it both ways, Liberals.

Quote:Liberals are funny


Feminists say that gender roles mean nothing and should be eliminated, but at the same time they are clammoring for Bruce Jenner to be identified with the female gender.


you cant have it both ways, Liberals.

I think this thread needs to end. When people cannot differentiate between gender identification and sex or gender roles imposed by society and an individual's personal gender identity, there is really no need to continue. I'm out. Go Jags.

Quote:I think this thread needs to end. When people cannot differentiate between gender identification and sex or gender roles imposed by society and an individual's personal gender identity, there is really no need to continue. I'm out. Go Jags.

 

There you go again, creating something out of nothing. "Gender Identification" is a figment of the imagination used only when a person needs some created fictional state to deny reality.

Quote:There you go again, creating something out of nothing. "Gender Identification" is a figment of the imagination used only when a person needs some created fictional state to deny reality.

 

The only reality here is the one you're denying.

Quote:A better question might be why mental illness, instead of just a different mental state? There seems to be a mindset here that if it defies one's sense of reason, there must be something wrong.

 

Unfortunately mental health is not an exact science.  There is no clearly defined line between mental illness and an unusual, or even highly unusual, mental state.  As you mentioned earlier, tolerance/acceptance levels vary drastically throughout differing cultures and societies.  Even within the social expectations of a given culture, how do you identify the transition from unusual to bizarre and when does bizarre become too bizarre? 

Quote:Think of the children!

I did exactly that when I saw this show getting ready to air on ABC Family:

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20910169,00.html'>http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20910169,00.html</a>

I haven't read this whole thread, but here's my take:

 

Bruce Jenner should not win an award for this.  He is not a "hero."  What he did takes courage, but coming out transgender is not exactly the same as athletes fighting through disease and the like.  I mean, come on.

 

I do not in any way condone the treatment of LBGT people as "sub-human."  They should not be abused, ridiculed, or harassed.  They should be allowed to do as they please, because our Constitution guarantees that right as long as they aren't breaking the law.

 

That said, when one's mental state demands that their biology is incorrect, we have a mental issue, not a physical one.  This isn't some big reveal of one's true self. 

 

It's akin to me believing my entire life that I am a duck.  I look at my skin and my hair and my lack of wings and think, "Why in the world did I have to be born in this human body?  I know that I'm really a duck on the inside!"  So I begin to behave as a duck.  I quack and eat insects.  I spend most of my life in the water. 

 

One day, I muster up my courage, grab my life savings, and go have the surgeries to web my feet, graft feathers to my skin, and manipulate my genitalia so that it's inflatable and corkscrew shaped.  Finally, I've revealed to the world who I really am.

 

But hey, even if I don't spring for the surgery, I'm still a duck on the inside!

 

This is an extreme example, but it gets my point across.  Men and women are fundamentally different on a genetic level.  Many of you have said that there are complex mental, emotional, and spiritual issues involved here--and I agree wholeheartedly.  But we all know what would happen to me if the above scenario were true.

 

I agree that mistreatment of LBGT individuals needs to be confronted and stopped--everyone has a right to live and exist in the way they so choose. It's a serious problem, much like the way the mentally disabled were once handled.

 

Again, my opinion above does IN NO WAY condones mistreatment of this individuals.  It's just my opinion.

Quote:I haven't read this whole thread, but here's my take:

 

Bruce Jenner should not win an award for this.  He is not a "hero."  What he did takes courage, but coming out transgender is not exactly the same as athletes fighting through disease and the like.  I mean, come on.

 

I do not in any way condone the treatment of LBGT people as "sub-human."  They should not be abused, ridiculed, or harassed.  They should be allowed to do as they please, because our Constitution guarantees that right as long as they aren't breaking the law.

 

That said, when one's mental state demands that their biology is incorrect, we have a mental issue, not a physical one.  This isn't some big reveal of one's true self. 

 

It's akin to me believing my entire life that I am a duck.  I look at my skin and my hair and my lack of wings and think, "Why in the world did I have to be born in this human body?  I know that I'm really a duck on the inside!"  So I begin to behave as a duck.  I quack and eat insects.  I spend most of my life in the water. 

 

One day, I muster up my courage, grab my life savings, and go have the surgeries to web my feet, graft feathers to my skin, and manipulate my genitalia so that it's inflatable and corkscrew shaped.  Finally, I've revealed to the world who I really am.

 

But hey, even if I don't spring for the surgery, I'm still a duck on the inside!

 

This is an extreme example, but it gets my point across.  Men and women are fundamentally different on a genetic level.  Many of you have said that there are complex mental, emotional, and spiritual issues involved here--and I agree wholeheartedly.  But we all know what would happen to me if the above scenario were true.

 

I agree that mistreatment of LBGT individuals needs to be confronted and stopped--everyone has a right to live and exist in the way they so choose. It's a serious problem, much like the way the mentally disabled were once handled.

 

Again, my opinion above does IN NO WAY condones mistreatment of this individuals.  It's just my opinion.

 

That is the other problem with this discussion.  You can't have an opinion that doesn't totally agree with what Jenner does without being look down upon and perceived to hate the lgbt community.  For a very large part of the population, I don't think thats true.

 

Not thinking what she has done isn't deserving of an award for courage doesn't mean you are against the lgbt community.

 

The world is constantly changing, some people are resistant to change and it takes time for everyone to come around.

I think I'm a Klingon.  Any who says otherwise is a bigot! 

Quote:I think I'm a Klingon.  Any who says otherwise is a bigot! 

ghIj ghet jaghmeyjaj!

Chromosomes/biology/physiology don't lie. Emotions and mental state can be manipulated by an unknown number of factors to cause a person to believe something that is not true. Just because you don't 'feel' like something, in this case Jenner doesn't feel like a man, doesn't change the fact that that is exactly what he is. 

 

The only people who could come close to being confused as to who they are would be hermaphrodites, but even then their chromosomes are either XX or XY regardless of what's going on below. 

 

As far as the moral issue..... it's something I don't agree with, but I'm not going to hate on the guy. People are going to do what they're going to do. It's not up to me to judge. I just know I'm tired of hearing about it because to me it's a non-issue. People make the choice every day to do this. He's only 'special' because of the Kardashians, otherwise he would have no real platform and no one would care. He'd just be another dude having surgery to make him into someone else. 

Quote:I did exactly that when I saw this show getting ready to air on ABC Family:

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20910169,00.html'>http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20910169,00.html</a>

 

I thought for sure the link was going to be about the Duggars.

Quote:There you go again, creating something out of nothing. "Gender Identification" is a figment of the imagination used only when a person needs some created fictional state to deny reality.

 

Gender identification is necessary when a person has to go to jail for days or months or prison for years.

Quote:Gender identification is necessary when a person has to go to jail for days or months or prison for years.

 

So how do you Identify gender; by mental state of mind or by body parts?

Quote:Gender identification is necessary when a person has to go to jail for days or months or prison for years.

 

Gender Identification only comes up when the claim is that the person inside doesn't match the equipment on the outside. When a male goes to prison, a public restroom, a locker room, etc. then he should go to a male facility. Now even OSHA is saying that how the person feels on the inside should allow him/her to choose his/her which facility to use. Balderdash.