Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Personally, I think Watt is the best football player in the whole league.


That said, I agree with the above poster that he shouldn't be MVP. The team is too poor for that, and I don't believe his presence equates to 5-6 of their wins.


Don't mistake that opinion to mean I don't believe a defensive player could be MVP. A defensive player absolutely could be an MVP, I just don't think it's Watt for the Texans right now.

Quote:Watt's a good player, but it's clear as the sky is blue that he's not the most valuable player in the NFL. His team's performance is way too poor for that to be the case. The stats show that his performance is really really good and he's in the range of other hall of fame level defensive players like Reggie White, Bruce Smith, and Lawrence Taylor. That said, it's clear why he's not MVP, if the texans had a QB on their team that was performing at the QB position as Watt has been performing as a d-lineman the texans would be perennial Superbowl favorites. As it is they're a team that's thought of as a borderline wildcard candidate. That fact in itself alone is why Watt is obviously not the MVP, he doesn't carry his team like a top QB can.

 

I get what you're saying but I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment (If I'm understanding you correctly, that is). By that logic, only elite QBs should ever win the MVP award and I don't think that's what you're trying to imply. I honestly think there is some disparity between what a true MVP is and what the NFL MVP award seems to stand for. If we're looking at true, text-book definition of MVP, I think the winner should have been Aaron Rodgers. JJ Watt is more of the "best football player on the field" type guy and that's what I believe to be reflected in him winning this award.

Quote:Watt's a good player, but it's clear as the sky is blue that he's not the most valuable player in the NFL. His team's performance is way too poor for that to be the case. The stats show that his performance is really really good and he's in the range of other hall of fame level defensive players like Reggie White, Bruce Smith, and Lawrence Taylor. That said, it's clear why he's not MVP, if the texans had a QB on their team that was performing at the QB position as Watt has been performing as a d-lineman the texans would be perennial Superbowl favorites. As it is they're a team that's thought of as a borderline wildcard candidate. That fact in itself alone is why Watt is obviously not the MVP, he doesn't carry his team like a top QB can.

 

Sorry, but the QB wins myth is dead legend.

 

It's a team sport.

 

The fatal flaw in the QB wins logic is that, only the QB wins.  When the team loses, the team (not the QB) loses.  That's the flawed logic in the QB = god mythology.

 

It's not so "clear" as the sky is blue, when your eyes are closed to the truth that Watt is very much deserving.

Quote:Cut the crap, the reason why you aren't arguing is because your argument is a stupid one and has no merit.

 

I'm OK with Watt holding the #1 title, but his argument holds water. 

 

If Watt battled high school OL, would his sacks be as significant? Not likely. College? Nope. I'm sure any reasonable person would argue that some level of talent must be met if Watt's sacks were to be as important as they're made out. These people he went against were horrendous. He's the best DL going against the worst OL, and to top it off, he had the luxury of doing it 4-6 times. 

 

So, again, I'm OK with Watt being rated #1 because I believe he's easily top-3 overall, and they can usually alternate between whomever is that high. However, he would not have been nearly as productive had he faced a moderately talented OL. 

Quote:Why does he have to like my favorite soccer team... Now i kinda like the guy.

In addition to him seeming like a cool guy, I thought he was hilarious in his appearances in "The League" too.


Hard to get over the whole playing for Houston thing though.

Quote:Sorry, but the QB wins myth is dead legend.

 

It's a team sport.

 

The fatal flaw in the QB wins logic is that, only the QB wins.  When the team loses, the team (not the QB) loses.  That's the flawed logic in the QB = god mythology.

 

It's not so "clear" as the sky is blue, when your eyes are closed to the truth that Watt is very much deserving.

 

He's deserving of recognition, he's not deserving of an MVP award, because it's clear that he doesn't have that level of value. Swap Luck for Watt and the texans would be winning the division. That's why a defensive lineman can't be MVP if there are actual elite QBs in the league at that point in time.

 

I could see Watt winning MVP if the top 10 or so QBs all had season ending injuries in the first few weeks of a season, but even then it would be a tough sell because it's likely someone would step up at the QB position and have an MVP year anyway.

Quote:He's deserving of recognition, he's not deserving of an MVP award, because it's clear that he doesn't have that level of value. Swap Luck for Watt and the texans would be winning the division. That's why a defensive lineman can't be MVP if there are actual elite QBs in the league at that point in time.

 

I could see Watt winning MVP if the top 10 or so QBs all had season ending injuries in the first few weeks of a season, but even then it would be a tough sell because it's likely someone would step up at the QB position and have an MVP year anyway.

 

If you subscribe to that logic, than you support that MVP should be renamed Best QB of the Year.

Quote:If you subscribe to that logic, than you support that MVP should be renamed Best QB of the Year.

The arguments in this thread are hilarious.


I think what MVP means is the key. Watt may be the 'most valuable player' to his team. But the problem is, Houston isn't all that good of a team, so how much 'value' does he really hold in the league.


I hate Brady, but you take him away from the Pats and they're toast. You take Watt away and Houston is still the average to below average team they started out as.


Could a NFL defensive player win MVP? Absolutely. But I think it's got to be for a better team.

Quote:If you subscribe to that logic, than you support that MVP should be renamed Best QB of the Year.

 

 

Quote:The arguments in this thread are hilarious.


I think what MVP means is the key. Watt may be the 'most valuable player' to his team. But the problem is, Houston isn't all that good of a team, so how much 'value' does he really hold in the league.


I hate Brady, but you take him away from the Pats and they're toast. You take Watt away and Houston is still the average to below average team they started out as.


Could a NFL defensive player win MVP? Absolutely. But I think it's got to be for a better team.

 

Right, Rico. Either Watt needs to be able to do for the texans what an elite QB does for his team, or he's not valuable enough as a player to be the MVP.

 

Put the most succinct way if the NFL suddenly voided all contracts and had a 54 round draft to choose all the players on all of the teams again and the texans were picking #1 overall and have a good GM they wouldn't take Watt, they'd take one of the elite QBs, not because Watt isn't one of the best defensively linemen in the league, but because he's simply not the most valuable player.

 

It really doesn't require any more thought than that. Watt's a great player, but he'll need to do much more than he's done so far to be anything more than fodder for the talking heads on ESPN and NFL network to try to drum up ratings at the end of another disappointing season for the texans.

Umm...yeah...so now that I see your points:

 

Quote:If you subscribe to that logic, than you support that MVP should be renamed Best QB of the Year.

 

.

Quote:Umm...yeah...so now that I see your points:



.

Personally, I think I explained it pretty succinctly. I never once said it had to be a QB...I used Brady as an example. If you can't accept it, that's fine.

Quote:Umm...yeah...so now that I see your points:

 

 

.

 

If your point is there needs to be some kind of affirmative action for anyone that's not a QB so that people that play less important positions can more easily "win" the MVP award then I don't think you'll get your wish, and I think your wish is ridiculous anyway. If your point is that you honestly think that Watt is more valuable to the texans than Brady, Manning, Roethlsberger, Rodgers, or Luck are to their respective teams then you're just flat out wrong.

 

It's not a slight to Watt to say that he simply isn't MVP material, it simply IS WHAT THE NFL IS NOW. If you want to make other positions viable then the NFL needs to change its rules, go back to the 70's style of play, get rid of pass interference and all of the personal foul penalties for brushing your arm somewhere along the top of a QB's uniform. Until that kind of change happens the NFL will lean harder and harder toward the success of any team being equal to the success of its QB.

Quote:He's deserving of recognition, he's not deserving of an MVP award, because it's clear that he doesn't have that level of value. 

 

In your opinion.  Not in fact.

Quote:Sorry, but the QB wins myth is dead legend.

 

It's a team sport.

 

The fatal flaw in the QB wins logic is that, only the QB wins.  When the team loses, the team (not the QB) loses.  That's the flawed logic in the QB = god mythology.

 

It's not so "clear" as the sky is blue, when your eyes are closed to the truth that Watt is very much deserving.

 

That ship has sailed. It was a team sport, but in today's basketball on grass, the QB is way more important than any other player. GB would be toast without Aaron Rodgers. Houston would still be the 2nd best team in the AFC-S without Watt.


 

Watt is the best defensive player in the NFL, and probably the most dominant in a long time. But nowadays that's almost as meaningless as being the best special teamer.


 

If you were given the choice to add one player to a team with holes at both positions, would you take Watt or Rodgers?

Quote:In your opinion.  Not in fact.

 

Well the MVP award is all about opinion, so trying to drill it down to facts makes it seem like you're just being a sore loser in the argument. Either way it seems the rest of the world pretty much agrees with people taking my stance, that the QB position is simply so valuable that unless it's a banner year for QB injuries the chance of someone other than a QB winning the award is slim to none with none seven lengths ahead of slim in the home stretch. I can even remember how some wanted to give Manning the MVP award in 2011 when it became clear just how many wins in a season an elite QB is worth on a team.

Quote:Watt is the best defensive player in the NFL, and probably the most dominant in a long time. But nowadays that's almost as meaningless as being the best special teamer.

 

I must say, we're overstocked with rocket scientists.

 

Just... wow...

Quote:Well the MVP award is all about opinion, so trying to drill it down to facts makes it seem like you're just being a sore loser in the argument.

 

I've said my say. You're the one so insecure you keep trolling back. Reinforces my stance, quite frankly.  The facts I presented still stand, and still will.

Quote:I must say, we're overstocked with rocket scientists.


Just... wow...

Quote:I've said my say. You're the one so insecure you keep trolling back. Reinforces my stance, quite frankly. The facts I presented still stand, and still will.

You only posted one comment with actual stats to back up your claim. The facts you presented were for QB hits and nothing else, and that was on the previous page. Jaguarmeister actually posted a decent amount of facts that built a reasonable explanation for why Watt is deserving. You've done nothing but try to insult people's intelligence and make snide comments to reinforce your opinion. Where are these facts you speak of that still and will stand?

For reference:

Quote:Last year's performance rare?

 

No, his entire career so far has been rare.

 
<a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/TexansPR/status/621345052942426112'>https://twitter.com/TexansPR/status/621345052942426112</a>

 

 
<a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/TexansPR'>Texans PR ‏@
TexansPR </a> <a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/TexansPR/status/621345052942426112'>5h5 hours ago</a>

.<a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/HoustonTexans'>@
HoustonTexans</a> DE <a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/JJWatt'>@
JJWatt</a> is the only player to record 40+ QB hits in a season since 2000 & he did it 3 straight yrs

 


 

This accomplishment speaks for itself.  He's a very special player and very much deserves the accolades of MVP.

 

Is there another player at another position that even comes close to such a feat?

 

There's no rule MVP must be given to an offensive player, particularly QB.  That's hypocritical at best.  Funny how when a team loses, it's whitewashed away and excused as a "team game."  But when a team wins, it's credited solely to the QB more times than not.  Removing bias, we see Watt is truly exceptional.

 

So, yes.

 

Let's be clear about JJ Watt.

 

He's MVP, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

Quote:Sacks are important but don't tell the whole story on a pass rusher by themself.  TFL's which have the same result as a sack, QB hurries, QB knockdowns, passes defensed, forced fumbles, etc... all directly or indirectly affect the way the game unfolds and as a result can affect the outcome of a game.  No defensive player in recent memory has affected as many plays as JJ Watt has through his first 4 seasons.  The guy is undoubtedly on pace to make the Hall and be regarded as an all-time great and his inclusion in the MVP discussion last year was well deserved, a feat in its own right for a defensive player.

 

FWIW, he led the league in TFL's last year with 29 followed by J. Houston and Suh with 23 each.

 

He led the league in passes defensed by a D-lineman with 10.  The next closest was a tie between Ricky Jean Francois, JPP, Jared Crick, Sammie Hill and Robert Quinn with 6.

 

According to Sportingcharts.com, he also led the league in QB hurries with 32 followed by J. Gallette with 29 and J. Houston with 26.

 

And regarding his 20.5 sacks last year, he was doing this as a 3-4 D-lineman.  3-4 D-linemen aren't typically known for pass rushing skills as they are usually trying to open up lanes for pass rushing Linebackers.  The next closest sack number by a Defensive End was 14.5 by 4-3 DE Mario Williams.  The next closest 3-4 DE in sacks was Vinny Curry of the Eagles with 9.

 
Finally, a tweet last December by Gil Brandt illustrates just how frequently he was affecting the QB versus the competition:

 
<a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/Gil_Brandt'>Gil Brandt ‏@
Gil_Brandt </a> <a class="bbc_url" href='https://twitter.com/Gil_Brandt/status/540252937398677504'>Dec 3</a>

J.J. Watt's Sacks (11.5) + knockdowns (43) + pressures (59) total is 113.5. The next closest is Everson Griffen at 65 (11-23-31).

 

I reference this tweet because I couldn't find anywhere online that kept QB knockdown stats (without a subscription) though I trust Gil is not making this number up and this was obviously not the numbers for the entire season as it was tweeted out with 4 weeks left on the schedule. I'm not sure what the difference between a QB pressure and a QB hurry is, but the incomplete pressures number above was obviously much higher than his season total for hurries.

 

Did playing the Jaguars and Titans twice last year help? Probably, but were the Jaguars and Titans offensive lines equally terrible against the rest of their schedules or was JJ Watt making them look even worse? If anything, I think JJ Watt is exposing just how bad Houston's QB situation was last year. He is so historically dominant as a defensive player that even mediocre play by Houston's QB should have gotten them into the playoffs.

I'd like to add that there hasn't been an MVP for a non playoff team since 1973 when OJ Simpson rushed for 2003 yards. Also, 18 of the last 26 MVPs were QBs and the other 8 were RBs.


Does Rodgers win MVP if the tinhorns make the playoffs last year? I still think he would have, although it would've been closer.


Ultimately, I agree with Rico and Seldomrite the most. Watt had an unprecedented season, but still couldn't lead his team to the playoffs. Meanwhile, we all know what happens to the Packers if they lose Aaron Rodgers to injury after their 1-2 start last year. He hobbled around on one leg for most of December and still finished with an insane TD/Int ratio of 38:5. Watt was deserving, but not more deserving than Rodgers, or any other QB that throws around 40TDs in a season.


It's awfully hard to be more valuable than someone who's contributing 2-3 TDs a week on average, especially since points wins games (or so I learned in "rocket science school").