Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:D6 >>>> KY

 

water is wet

Quote: Even with the positives from Vic Beasley's rookie season, having someone like Dwight Freeney around is invaluable when it comes to learning tips that make a very good athlete into an eventual great player. Many players that went on to being amongst the best at their respective position had the benefit of learning from a veteran in a manner that compliments the coaching he received from actual coaches.

that just made way to much sense

Quote:that just made way to much sense

But what does the spider chart and PFF grades have to say?

I think Fowler has the potential to be like Whitney Mercilus.  Mercilus was pretty quiet his first two years, but kept getting better and better before he blew up in year 3.  There are always exceptions but I feel like smallish DE's (particularly coming off an ACL) need some time to bulk up, and get their bodies coordinated to get around giant left OT's.

Declared a bust 1 year and 7 games after a ACL tear. Goid Job

Quote:having someone like Dwight Freeney around is invaluable when it comes to learning tips that make a very good athlete into an eventual great player.    

Yeah, it's a possibility but I try not to deal with immeasurable hypothetical statements. There are tons of examples of players developing well with Freeney-like veteran mentors, tons of example of players developing well without them, tons of players busting with Freeney-like veteran mentors, and tons of examples of players busting without them. There is zero measurable basis to make a claim like that either way, so I try to avoid it. 

 

I'll stick with Beasley being successful because he had great college production, great college tape, great traits, great measurables, and a very good rookie season. 

Quote:D6 >>>> KY

Quote:water is wet

Quote:that just made way to much sense

Quote:But what does the spider chart and PFF grades have to say?

Placing a higher value on immeasurable hypothetical evidence over empirical data is what gets you Dante Fowler's at 3 instead of Vic Beasley's. I will very happily be on the other side of those railroad tracks. 

I was also not a fan of drafting Fowler.

 

I wanted Leonard Williams or Amari Cooper.

Quote:Yeah, it's a possibility but I try not to deal with immeasurable hypothetical statements. There are tons of examples of players developing well with Freeney-like veteran mentors, tons of example of players developing well without them, tons of players busting with Freeney-like veteran mentors, and tons of examples of players busting without them. There is zero measurable basis to make a claim like that either way, so I try to avoid it. 

 

I'll stick with Beasley being successful because he had great college production, great college tape, great traits, great measurables, and a very good rookie season. 

 

   I'm not discounting the importance of natural ability.   However,  where we significantly disagree is the level of value of having highly accomplished players on the roster as mentors.   Which is fine.  There are many different ways to look at the similar data.  

 

   One example comes to mind relates to a couple of players that I know you are very familiar with especially because you following the Jaguars and the SEC closely:

 

   In 2013,  the Lions drafted CB Darius Slay out of Mississippi St.  in the upper part of Round 2.   Before going to Miss. St. ,  he was a Junior College player.   Based on Slay playing mostly in man to man coverage in College,  he was raw coming into the NFL.   But not many CBs have Slay's natural physical gifts.  

 

  That summer,   the Lions signed former Jaguars all time great CB Rashean Mathis as an UFA.   Though Mathis had two very good seasons,   before tailing off in 2015..... before a concussion ending his season and ultimately he retired,    the greatest value Mathis provided was being a mentor to Slay.   The two spent a considerable amount of time together in the off-season,  including in the Jacksonville area where Mathis has a home.   In addition,  Slay spent time with HOFer CB-S Rod Woodson in two off-seasons.   This before Woodson went on to become a coach with the Raiders this past off-season.   Slay raised his game substantially in 2014 and in 2015 became one of the NFL top CBs.   PFT,  among others,  agrees with that opinion.   To the point that he signed a lucrative contract right before training camp this summer.  

 

 As much ability as Darius Slay has,  even with good coaching he's received,  I'm 99.99% convinced he wouldn't be close to his current level if not for the work that he did with Mathis and Woodson.   Being that coaches have a limited amount of time in the off-season to work with players,  it makes having mentors very valuable.   Rashean Mathis is now retired but with the development of Slay and the strides CB Nevin Lawson has made,   Mathis continues to pay huge dividends.  

Quote: I'm not discounting the importance of natural ability. However, where we significantly disagree is the level of value of having highly accomplished players on the roster as mentors. Which is fine. There are many different ways to look at the similar data.


One example comes to mind relates to a couple of players that I know you are very familiar with especially because you following the Jaguars and the SEC closely:


In 2013, the Lions drafted CB Darius Slay out of Mississippi St. in the upper part of Round 2. Before going to Miss. St. , he was a Junior College player. Based on Slay playing mostly in man to man coverage in College, he was raw coming into the NFL. But not many CBs have Slay's natural physical gifts.


That summer, the Lions signed former Jaguars all time great CB Rashean Mathis as an UFA. Though Mathis had two very good seasons, before tailing off in 2015..... before a concussion ending his season and ultimately he retired, the greatest value Mathis provided was being a mentor to Slay. The two spent a considerable amount of time together in the off-season, including in the Jacksonville area where Mathis has a home. In addition, Slay spent time with HOFer CB-S Rod Woodson in two off-seasons. This before Woodson went on to become a coach with the Raiders this past off-season. Slay raised his game substantially in 2014 and in 2015 became one of the NFL top CBs. PFT, among others, agrees with that opinion. To the point that he signed a lucrative contract right before training camp this summer.


As much ability as Darius Slay has, even with good coaching he's received, I'm 99.99% convinced he wouldn't be close to his current level if not for the work that he did with Mathis and Woodson. Being that coaches have a limited amount of time in the off-season to work with players, it makes having mentors very valuable. Rashean Mathis is now retired but with the development of Slay and the strides CB Nevin Lawson has made, Mathis continues to pay huge dividends.

Very good points. I somewhat wished the Jags would have signed Freeney now, instead of leaning on two rookie pass rushers who are having to learn from each other and a coaching staff that has consistently failed to develop talent.

Quote: I'm not discounting the importance of natural ability. However, where we significantly disagree is the level of value of having highly accomplished players on the roster as mentors. Which is fine. There are many different ways to look at the similar data.


One example comes to mind relates to a couple of players that I know you are very familiar with especially because you following the Jaguars and the SEC closely:


In 2013, the Lions drafted CB Darius Slay out of Mississippi St. in the upper part of Round 2. Before going to Miss. St. , he was a Junior College player. Based on Slay playing mostly in man to man coverage in College, he was raw coming into the NFL. But not many CBs have Slay's natural physical gifts.


That summer, the Lions signed former Jaguars all time great CB Rashean Mathis as an UFA. Though Mathis had two very good seasons, before tailing off in 2015..... before a concussion ending his season and ultimately he retired, the greatest value Mathis provided was being a mentor to Slay. The two spent a considerable amount of time together in the off-season, including in the Jacksonville area where Mathis has a home. In addition, Slay spent time with HOFer CB-S Rod Woodson in two off-seasons. This before Woodson went on to become a coach with the Raiders this past off-season. Slay raised his game substantially in 2014 and in 2015 became one of the NFL top CBs. PFT, among others, agrees with that opinion. To the point that he signed a lucrative contract right before training camp this summer.


As much ability as Darius Slay has, even with good coaching he's received, I'm 99.99% convinced he wouldn't be close to his current level if not for the work that he did with Mathis and Woodson. Being that coaches have a limited amount of time in the off-season to work with players, it makes having mentors very valuable. Rashean Mathis is now retired but with the development of Slay and the strides CB Nevin Lawson has made, Mathis continues to pay huge dividends.

Thats cool and all but this is just one case out of many where younger players arent gaining anything from Veterans. And again, its difficult to give credit to a veteran mentor with so little knowledge of what they did, and what was done on the part of the younger player on his own. Its just not that significant more often than not.


also most of the time the stuff you say can be delivered in like 2 paragraphs less. These essays just make it seem like youre saying a lot more than you really are.

Quote:Placing a higher value on immeasurable hypothetical evidence over empirical data is what gets you Dante Fowler's at 3 instead of Vic Beasley's. I will very happily be on the other side of those railroad tracks.

^^^

Quote:Placing a higher value on immeasurable hypothetical evidence over empirical data is what gets you Dante Fowler's at 3 instead of Vic Beasley's. I will very happily be on the other side of those railroad tracks. 

 

 

Confused.  Wasn't Beasley a bust like 2 weeks ago?

Quote:Confused.  Wasn't Beasley a bust like 2 weeks ago?

Only to people who took 10 seconds to google his name and look at the box score stats.

 

To people who watched him, or even took the full minute to look into his advanced stats, nope...he had a successful rookie season. 

Quote:Very good points. I somewhat wished the Jags would have signed Freeney now, instead of leaning on two rookie pass rushers who are having to learn from each other and a coaching staff that has consistently failed to develop talent.

 

  Even if one makes the case that the Jags would get more tangible production from lets say Chris Smith than Dwight Freeney,  I still believe Freeney would have maximized the roster spot better for the reason you mentioned.   The Jags have an excellent salary cap situation.  Hence,  even assuming the team would have had to give Freeney a little more than a $ 1 million salary,  the amount the Falcons gave him,   I truly believe it would have been a good long term investment beyond the time Freeney would have been on the roster. 

Quote:Thats cool and all but this is just one case out of many where younger players arent gaining anything from Veterans. And again, its difficult to give credit to a veteran mentor with so little knowledge of what they did, and what was done on the part of the younger player on his own. Its just not that significant more often than not.


also most of the time the stuff you say can be delivered in like 2 paragraphs less. These essays just make it seem like youre saying a lot more than you really are.

  

 

  Everyone is different but I rather provide more information before a point of what I believe is diminishing returns occurs.   One great aspect of an Internet Forum is people can read as much as they prefer.   Even if one person ends up benefiting from a post,  I think it's worth the effort.   I've learned plenty from so many people here because they have taken the time to share with the rest of us information that many, if not most of us,  weren't aware of.    Even today when on an exercise bicycle,  I used the Forum search engine to read about something of interest.   Some of the past posts that people wrote were helpful for me even though they date back a considerable period of time. 

 

 

 

   When a player and his Head Coach greatly praise a mentor for his efforts,   that has plenty of weight on this end as in the specific example that I provided.

Quote:I think Fowler has the potential to be like Whitney Mercilus.  Mercilus was pretty quiet his first two years, but kept getting better and better before he blew up in year 3.  There are always exceptions but I feel like smallish DE's (particularly coming off an ACL) need some time to bulk up, and get their bodies coordinated to get around giant left OT's.

That's entirely too reasonable.  Jaguar fans have determined he's a bust, so we don't need that kind of nonsense around here.

Quote:That's entirely too reasonable.  Jaguar fans have determined he's a bust, so we don't need that kind of nonsense around here.

 

I just don't understand why people would even jump to that but then in the same sentence acknowledge how bad the coaching is. Ok so he gets blown up unless they stunt or whatever, ok so what if a coach comes in and uses him like he's supposed to be used like he was at Florida and he looks good? We all know the coaching is garbage and half if not most of these players could probably look better with someone that's halfway competent. I give most of the people on the team a pass this year. 

Quote:Placing a higher value on immeasurable hypothetical evidence over empirical data is what gets you Dante Fowler's at 3 instead of Vic Beasley's. I will very happily be on the other side of those railroad tracks. 

 

Tell us more about why you fell so hard for Geno Smith.

 

Joke.

Quote:Tell us more about why you fell so hard for Geno Smith.

 

Joke.

Geno did great things with a team that was horrible. And had he not went to the jets.  He may of been much better.  The jets are terrible. Yea they made the post season twice.  But one time cause the clots had nothing to play for.